Civ5 - shipping with Steamworks * plus Digital Deluxe Edition

2K Elizabeth said:

I can definitely answer that for you on behalf of Firaxis and 2K Games employees.

We work together on decisions like this - neither tells the other what to do. We are a team, and always have been.

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How do you know? <snip>

Moderator Action: there is absolutely no call for such attacks against any poster. I have deleted your content. Do not repeat it here or in any other CFC forum. If you cannot post in a civil manner I suggest that you find another web site for your comments.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

<snip>

Moderator Action: Responses are not necessary or valued.

That's going too far. No need to go there.

Yeah, I agree with the sentiment that it's marketing poop, but no need to go to insults.

arstal said:

Sometimes a team is a coach, the player- and if the player doesn't do what the coach is told, he's shipped out. See Acti/Infinity Ward. I'm not saying 2K is as corrupt as Acti, but it's clear who is in charge.

I'm sure they're consulted, but the decision comes from 2K. If Firaxis was doing this, I believe they wouldn't have DRM at all, or something that wouldn't shaft a company they have very good relations with (Stardock- the Firaxis and Stardock teams are close- they even alpha tested each other's games.)

Also, even if you can buy the game from a store, you get all the drawbacks of DD anyways, which are worse since it's Steam.

That said, I do think Steam paranoia about spyware is overblown. The real concern to me is them having too much power over how you play your game.

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I fully realize some of you will never believe me, but I still feel compelled to say this isn't the case. Steam is much, much more than DRM (in fact I don't think that is its crowning feature) and Firaxis agrees and likes the capabilities for their game.

If team is a word that can be construed in a negative fashion, let's use partnership. Because that's what we are. And we wouldn't force something on Firaxis. We work together.

evrett37 said:

How do you know? <snip>

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I'm one person. A couple of you have met me, and it makes me chuckle to think of this robotic-Elizabeth-persona. If but I could be more than one person!

Anyway, Firaxis hasn't ever treated me in any way other than with the utmost respect, and I love going to their studio. I'm close with quite a few people on the team - but my relationships with them shouldn't matter as long as I get you guys what you need.

If you don't like me, that's cool - but if you need something, feel free to ask. You can keep saying I'm something that I'm not and I'll still be able to get you stuff you don't think I can.

Eejit said:

Sounds like it generates a hash locally based on the hardware which is then used as an identifier. That's fine with me.

I've had both of these happen.
Steam checks for fragmentation of game files when you try to run the game, if they're fragmented it gives you the option to have Steam defrag them. You don't have to. I generally do
Similar deal with drivers, they're checked when you try to launch a game which will use them, if they're outdated it offers you a link to update your drivers. As far as I remember you can also check a box "don't ask me again" if you choose "no".

From my experience these don't seem to be constant monitoring of your system, but checking certain areas while preparing to load them.

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I think you understand this, but for the sake of any who may not, I'm not saying steam is evil/etc., or that everything it does is harmful. Heck, maybe nothing it does is harmful, other than unnecessarily (to some of us) taking up system resources and increasing bandwidth, and collecting info that doesn't benefit us and which they make money off.

I mentioned those 2 things you referenced as pieces of the puzzle, to help get a general picture of just how much steam does/doesn't. They remind me of MS and their attempts to thwart Windows piracy, except MS tied a windows installation to a specific machine -- steam doesn't, so why is it needed?

This is also part of a creeping change -- does Civ4 do this, or other 'older' DRM'd games?

By themselves they're pretty innocuous things, but whether that's true of the whole can't be said when it's not known what the 'whole' is -- thus my simple questions:
-what information (aggregate, individual, and personally identifiable) is collected
-who is it shared with
-what do the third parties do with it
-exactly what things does steam do (ie -- the Valve Anti-Cheat which "...works by scanning the users system for cheats while your game is running. It works a lot like a virus scanner, and has a database of known cheats to detect." is one process that's running, what others are there? How much bandwidth will be used in a 'typical' civ5 game? etc.

arstal said:

That's going too far (evrett37's insults)... no need to go to insults.

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Agreed.

2K Elizabeth is just doing her job, and it's a tough one as far as this topic goes (tho I'm guessing a pretty cool job in most ways), and I empathize with her and the position she's in. (the saying 'a rock and a hard place' comes to mind for some reason).

I've already said this but I'll repeat it -- none of this is personal. As an almost 20 year civ player who's bought every civ game I have concerns, and if I didn't care about the series I wouldn't be taking the time to pursue this. I won't buy civ5 with forced steam, and before I slink off into the civ sunset I'm fighting what I know is a losing, yet nonetheless worth my while, battle.

Moderator Action: Trash talk deleted
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evrett37 said:

Moderator Action: Trash talk deleted.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

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Hey -

In another thread you mentioned GTA and I explained to you the structure of our companies, but in case you missed that, I'll go over it again. 2K Games doesn't make GTA - we're the sister company to Rockstar (both of us are owned by Take Two Interactive.) I don't work on Rockstar games, so I can't weigh in on my involvement with them - as I don't do any work there! I'm personally a huge fan of their games and I've got Red Dead Redemption on my desk, ready to boot up tonight when I get home. But that's kind of off topic, so I cut it out and left the relevant stuff in.

2K Elizabeth said:

I can definitely answer that for you on behalf of Firaxis and 2K Games employees.

We work together on decisions like this - neither tells the other what to do. We are a team, and always have been.

Also, I want to clarify that just because this is a Steam game does not mean it's digital download only. You'll be able to buy the game from a store, just like you have in the past.

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So rockstar doesn't count for this big happy "team" but Firaxis does...? Your "sister company" isnt on your team? You dont market and distribute their products ?

evrett37 said:

So rockstar doesn't count for this big happy "team" but Firaxis does...? Your "sister company" isnt on your team?

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Since Firaxis is a 2K Games developer, yes, they are!

Hello Elizabeth

have you seen this posts and added to your neverending list
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9191143&postcount=795
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9197699&postcount=821

You asked us gently to remember You from time to time if there are posts some of us would like to see an answer.

As additional question. Will Civ5 use the CEG feature of steam?

Best regards
T_C

The_Coyote said:

@ 2K Elizabeth

Hello Elizabeth,

thanks for the info and the patience to still answer some of the questions that arise here.
[snip]

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Coyote -

A lot of your questions are rather in depth and I'd need to do more research to find out. If you want to see our privacy policy in general, it's right here: http://www.take2games.com/privacy/

As for the Valve questions, I'll look into them, but you might also want to go to Valve directly and have that discussion with them, as they will be able to tell you their own company policies. In the meantime, a Steam FAQ is in the works.

Next, for European/USA issues, I simply don't have enough information right now to give you a good opinion, personal or otherwise. We're a global company, so we adhere to our privacy policies as well as the policies and laws of the territories and countries where we sell our games.

And for patching beyond Steam, I am also getting that answer - the game is still in flux, so these kinds of things have not yet been finalized.

EDIT: I just read through your second message and again, a lot of that info is stuff that I don't have on hand and you should either go talk to Valve about (fastest way to get to them) or wait for me to see what I can rustle up. But for the question of what is the benefit for someone who bought the game in the store and does not ever want to play multiplayer or use Steam's capabilities for updates, I can only say that we want a solution for you that is light enough that if you don't want to use those features, you don't have to, but they are powerful and useful tools that a lot of people really love and we wanted to support them. I hope you use them and like them, but again, you don't have to.

thanks

I didn´t expected to have the answer immediately, i only wanted to know if You have seen the questions before they got lost in the deeps of the thread. Knowing this is enough for the moment, an answer later still would be nice. But i have time, the game will not be released tomorrow

Best regards
T_C

2K Elizabeth said:

I fully realize some of you will never believe me, but I still feel compelled to say this isn't the case. Steam is much, much more than DRM (in fact I don't think that is its crowning feature) and Firaxis agrees and likes the capabilities for their game.

If team is a word that can be construed in a negative fashion, let's use partnership. Because that's what we are. And we wouldn't force something on Firaxis. We work together.

Click to expand...

The DRM is a bigger negative then anything positive Steam could provide to me.

Steam, to me and a significant portion of the diehard fanbase, is nasty DRM bundled with a bunch of features I don't care for.

Maybe you guys have decided you'll gain more sales this way, but it doesn't mean we will quietly go along with it. At least this gives you some job security ^_^.

This is the first time I've ever seen a successful franchise send a representative to a fan site to explain their choices. Usually we see the entire community forced to go to the official page for answers or to leave suggestions, or we get a Monte Cristo-esque screw up.

It is a bit unsettling that people aren't willing to appreciate that and have to make passive aggressive marks about the representative's job security. It's doubtful that Firaxis is 'selling out' by going with Steam. They will sell millions of copies of Civilization Five with or without Steam. 2K Elizabeth is not going to be thrown out on the street if she doesn't sell the idea of Steam on you.

What I would suggest is loading up Steam and trying it out for a while. They are offering Portal for free until May 24, and that is good, clean fun, even if you're the troll who was ranting about GTA earlier. If you find it debilitates your ability to enjoy your gaming experience, return here and continue protesting.

Some things to try include deactivating your internet after you have downloaded Portal and observing how you are still able to play.

Grakelin said:

This is the first time I've ever seen a successful franchise send a representative to a fan site to explain their choices. Usually we see the entire community forced to go to the official page for answers or to leave suggestions, or we get a Monte Cristo-esque screw up.

It is a bit unsettling that people aren't willing to appreciate that and have to make passive aggressive marks about the representative's job security. It's doubtful that Firaxis is 'selling out' by going with Steam. They will sell millions of copies of Civilization Five with or without Steam. 2K Elizabeth is not going to be thrown out on the street if she doesn't sell the idea of Steam on you.

What I would suggest is loading up Steam and trying it out for a while. They are offering Portal for free until May 24, and that is good, clean fun, even if you're the troll who was ranting about GTA earlier. If you find it debilitates your ability to enjoy your gaming experience, return here and continue protesting.

Some things to try include deactivating your internet after you have downloaded Portal and observing how you are still able to play.

Click to expand...

First off, I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to sell Steam to you. I'll try and explain why we chose it, and what is good about it, and I'll be upfront about personally being a big fan of Steam, but I'm not naive and I know not everyone is going to approve of decisions - regardless of the decision. As for my job security, don't worry about that. I'm not.

I dunno, I think its just a sign of them choosing vanilla Civ V over mods.

I mean, from that perspective it makes more sense ... the vast majority of Civ multiplayer uses the canon version of the game, and Steam is best suited for a homogenized multiplayer game.

For me, the Civ series' best trait is Mod-based multiplayer. So, I am a bit dissapointed that mods seem to be given second or third banana ... however I could see why the company would focus on the needs of the base game over potential mods.

That being said ... I am relatively confident that the Modding Community will be a shriveled husk of what it was for Civ IV. This won't be affecting sales by all that much, but for me the "fun factor" is significantly reduced.

I mean ... I "Hope" that modding will be just as accessible in Civ V as Civ IV (meaning having multiple versions of the game on my computer) but if not ... then there is always Stardock's Elemental, which shows a lot of promise.

arstal said:

Sometimes a team is a coach, the player- and if the player doesn't do what the coach is told, he's shipped out. See Acti/Infinity Ward. I'm not saying 2K is as corrupt as Acti, but it's clear who is in charge.

I'm sure they're consulted, but the decision comes from 2K. If Firaxis was doing this, I believe they wouldn't have DRM at all, or something that wouldn't shaft a company they have very good relations with (Stardock- the Firaxis and Stardock teams are close- they even alpha tested each other's games.)

Also, even if you can buy the game from a store, you get all the drawbacks of DD anyways, which are worse since it's Steam.

That said, I do think Steam paranoia about spyware is overblown. The real concern to me is them having too much power over how you play your game.

Click to expand...

It is funny you said this...

My question about how involved Firaxis was with this decision was inspired by a post on the Elementals (new Stardock game) forums by one of the developers of the game.

I'm not going to get into what he said, as anyone can go and look for it themselves, but after reading it I was willing to give Firaxis the benefit of the doubt on this whole matter.

In the end, I understand why Valve did this. I also happen to not have anything against Steam. I do have a lot against games that rely on micro-DLC transactions and most of all I have a lot against monopolies and anything that is labeled "exclusive".

As I said before if I can buy CIV 5 on Impulse or Gamersgate I might be willing to forget the whole DLC trap they are setting for us. Otherwise I'll just wait, 2 or 3 years are not going to kill me and I'll even save money when I buy the "ultimate, complete or whatever pack" a few years from now


Edit: I would also like to thank "2K Elizabeth" again for her patience and time.

There is no excuse to disrespect someone who is just doing their job.

Grakelin said:

This is the first time I've ever seen a successful franchise send a representative to a fan site to explain their choices. Usually we see the entire community forced to go to the official page for answers or to leave suggestions, or we get a Monte Cristo-esque screw up.

It is a bit unsettling that people aren't willing to appreciate that and have to make passive aggressive marks about the representative's job security. It's doubtful that Firaxis is 'selling out' by going with Steam. They will sell millions of copies of Civilization Five with or without Steam. 2K Elizabeth is not going to be thrown out on the street if she doesn't sell the idea of Steam on you.

What I would suggest is loading up Steam and trying it out for a while. They are offering Portal for free until May 24, and that is good, clean fun, even if you're the troll who was ranting about GTA earlier. If you find it debilitates your ability to enjoy your gaming experience, return here and continue protesting.

Some things to try include deactivating your internet after you have downloaded Portal and observing how you are still able to play.

Click to expand...

I have tried Steam. That's why I refuse to use it for any non-Valve games.

Is it the worst DRM out there? No. Is it a DRM I find unacceptable? Yes. Do I worry about Valve monopolizing the DD industry, which I consider the future of PC gaming, and the side effects that may happen? Yes.

All those combined lead me to say no sale.

Tasunke said:

I dunno, I think its just a sign of them choosing vanilla Civ V over mods.

I mean, from that perspective it makes more sense ... the vast majority of Civ multiplayer uses the canon version of the game, and Steam is best suited for a homogenized multiplayer game.

For me, the Civ series' best trait is Mod-based multiplayer. So, I am a bit dissapointed that mods seem to be given second or third banana ... however I could see why the company would focus on the needs of the base game over potential mods.

That being said ... I am relatively confident that the Modding Community will be a shriveled husk of what it was for Civ IV. This won't be affecting sales by all that much, but for me the "fun factor" is significantly reduced.

I mean ... I "Hope" that modding will be just as accessible in Civ V as Civ IV (meaning having multiple versions of the game on my computer) but if not ... then there is always Stardock's Elemental, which shows a lot of promise.

Click to expand...

This, combined with the dev blog about the modding on that game being much better then anyone imagined (unsure if marketing or not, Brad Wardell is pretty damn smart), is why I think a Civ Mod for Elemental is very likely.