Udey1
Prince
Sorry about that. I am still learning some stuff here and there about Civ. (I usually scrape by with wars, but we can't do that here.)
SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Sorry about that. I am still learning some stuff here and there about Civ. (I usually scrape by with wars, but we can't do that here.)
^^No need to go back. That city isn't coastal or we'd get the trade routes +network (I tested it and you only need to see the tiles next to the trade network).
Interestingly I added Iron in the desert, Oil, Uranium (etc.) and Zara never goes to the wheat in the test game? Always settles the river system.
Interestingly I added Iron in the desert, Oil, Uranium (etc.) and Zara never goes to the wheat in the test game? Always settles the river system.
Care to give more point since I have a different point of view?
HG is a low value wonder even with the stone bonus. For 150 + 450/2 = 375 hammers, all we get are 1 universal health + 2 GPP + ~10 pops. The actual net gain is 450H (1 pop = 45H) - 375H = 75 H make it 100H given the burea bonus. Is the 1 universal health important, I don't think so, we have 2 grains + 3 seafoods in sight, which make 12 health for coastal city and that's big enough for most of the game.
Now Let's come to ToA, for 275 hammers, we get 5 GPP + 1H + 1G + 3B + double trade route income each turn. When currency and burea bonus kick in, we could gain at least 6C from the trade route income and this bonus getting more when the size of Delhi and AI's capital growing bigger. I don't even need to mention the earlier gain before CS, the gain after CS from ToA is 5GPP + 1.5H + 1G + 5.25B + 6C each turn, How many turns do we need to make it profitable for the hammers we invest?
I will be glad to yield to strong point (For instance, what BIC pointed out that artist is as good as free monument), but not to any assertions. Same as the HG, I'd like to hear your explanation and I'd always like to learn something new.
Seems like both kossin and duckweed are ok with this. I'll wait for the EU gang to wake up and have their say, then play pretty much right away.
Just for reference (next 3 turns):
t111
OB with Saladin
Delhi 4th citizen on Cottage [growth in 3]
Move Northern warrior + western warrior within territory
t112
3 workers chop in Vijay
Chariot starts scouting Zara land (eastbound).
Worker 2N of Delhi goes NW & chop
t113
2 westmost workers from Vijay move 2S of Vijay and complete farm
3rd Vijay worker moves to get started on forest-chop on hill by 5th site if we can get it (WB out sooner). We don't need more workers to finish cow or road on pigs earlier, I think (Whipping WB as we're growing to size 3, then regrow to 3 while finishing cow+roads)?
t114
stop - we can re-discuss.
Just for reference (next 3 turns):
t111
OB with Saladin
Delhi 4th citizen on Cottage [growth in 3]
Move Northern warrior + western warrior within territory
t112
3 workers chop in Vijay
Chariot starts scouting Zara land (eastbound).
Worker 2N of Delhi goes NW & chop
t113
2 westmost workers from Vijay move 2S of Vijay and complete farm
3rd Vijay worker moves to get started on forest-chop on hill by 5th site if we can get it (WB out sooner). We don't need more workers to finish cow or road on pigs earlier, I think (Whipping WB as we're growing to size 3, then regrow to 3 while finishing cow+roads)?
t114
stop - we can re-discuss.
I think this logic appeals to me. I'm not sure the assumption of 1 pop = 45H is 100% accurate. The extra citizen will be working some tile for a lot of turns for more
, 
and in some instances probably quicker growth all over our empire for quite some time (untill pop maxes out). I'm just not sure how to value that (other than 45H).That said.. if we want ToA (and I'm not sure we can get it given we're fairly late in the early game) we need to push for it (maybe at least with som non-BFC forestchops), and the risk is we end up getting nothing but gold for it. Getting ToA then would probably mean we're not getting HG, so that needs to be addressed.
Udey1
Prince
same things happen in my testgame. he goes right to the river in all my tries.
dingding
Prince
I will be glad to yield to strong point (For instance, what BIC pointed out that artist is as good as free monument), but not to any assertions. Same as the HG, I'd like to hear your explanation and I'd always like to learn something new.
Sorry I don't have much time to discuss lately, for instance I have two interviews today
About the HG, I think I've made my point in the previous posts. As Diplo Victory is the first priority, I would put a GE in the first priority as well. You're welcome to propose another shot better for generating a GE.
To be honest, I don't really care about +1 pop and +1 health. And HG should be 150/1.75+450/2.75 = 250h only.
Also it's not that I dislike ToA, but we have better things on which we can put hammers. And at this point, the chance to grab it becomes slimmer and slimmer.
About expansion: according to the west coast we explored, one settler is enough for blocking Saladin, though we have capacity to rush 2 more. To the north, there is no potential competitor so far.
Sacrifying so many pops in Delhi to rush one irrevelant settler doesn't sound very wise to me, let alone we can spam them even faster with Bureau and they could growth better under OR.
dingding
Prince
OB with Saladin doesn't seem very important for me. There is no TR possibility with him so far and our WB went north already.
Given the complicated religion situation, I think we can wait and see for a few turns to decide to OB with Saladin or not.
Given the complicated religion situation, I think we can wait and see for a few turns to decide to OB with Saladin or not.
dingding
Prince
@ Bugg:
I'm not really sure about the Settler.
The movement path of Zara's settler/archers doesn't make much sense to me, usually archers go on hill or forest as much as possible. It's not the case. The only explanation I can imagine is:
1) there is one tile of road in 1S1W of Aksum.
2) He's going to settle down in 1E of the oasis or 1N or 1S1W of the wheat.
So he might have 3 options (1E of Oasis, 1N of Oasis, 1S1W of the wheat) and we have two (whipping, no whipping). In 3 of the 6 possible combinations, he'll beat us on the Wheat, in the other 3, we win.
It's like Schrödinger's Cat, we can't know. Since most of you are Ok with no whipping, go ahead.
I'm not really sure about the Settler.
The movement path of Zara's settler/archers doesn't make much sense to me, usually archers go on hill or forest as much as possible. It's not the case. The only explanation I can imagine is:
1) there is one tile of road in 1S1W of Aksum.
2) He's going to settle down in 1E of the oasis or 1N or 1S1W of the wheat.
So he might have 3 options (1E of Oasis, 1N of Oasis, 1S1W of the wheat) and we have two (whipping, no whipping). In 3 of the 6 possible combinations, he'll beat us on the Wheat, in the other 3, we win.
It's like Schrödinger's Cat, we can't know. Since most of you are Ok with no whipping, go ahead.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
What are you doing with the workboat, Bugg ? I assume you'll send him west.
Your plan is ok with me.
I'm just wondering about sending the worker east on turn 113. Maybe risky, depending on Zara's moves, but I guess it is ok. Alternative would be to start a mine on the spot or go 1SE and start a road.
Tech related :
If we settle the gold, then maybe we should go for Metal Casting after CS to put up a forge in Delhi. We'd have +2 happiness, which would finally allow to grow it size 10+ and make up for the loss of the religious bonus. We'll also need a LOT of hammers in Delhi, so... the earlier the forge, the better... Vijay could also use an early forge.
Pataliputra :
I'd really want to explore Saladin's territory. I think a 3rd workboat should be in order, there.
Your plan is ok with me.
I'm just wondering about sending the worker east on turn 113. Maybe risky, depending on Zara's moves, but I guess it is ok. Alternative would be to start a mine on the spot or go 1SE and start a road.
Tech related :
If we settle the gold, then maybe we should go for Metal Casting after CS to put up a forge in Delhi. We'd have +2 happiness, which would finally allow to grow it size 10+ and make up for the loss of the religious bonus. We'll also need a LOT of hammers in Delhi, so... the earlier the forge, the better... Vijay could also use an early forge.
Pataliputra :
I'd really want to explore Saladin's territory. I think a 3rd workboat should be in order, there.
@BIC:
workboat is continuing west, yes.
Concerning worker, if there's no point sending him east, he won't go. I just refuse to see Zara settling close to our spot (trying to be an optimist)
If everyone but dingding is ok with opening borders with Sal, I guess there's no harm in doing it (we can close borders again, and there probably won't be any demands to stop trading or such in the next 10 turns anyways... I hope?)
EDIT: Just made a final test, and got hit by a demand T112. We have not discussed what to do with demands yet, so maybe that should be addressed before I play?
workboat is continuing west, yes.
Concerning worker, if there's no point sending him east, he won't go. I just refuse to see Zara settling close to our spot (trying to be an optimist
)If everyone but dingding is ok with opening borders with Sal, I guess there's no harm in doing it (we can close borders again, and there probably won't be any demands to stop trading or such in the next 10 turns anyways... I hope?)
EDIT: Just made a final test, and got hit by a demand T112. We have not discussed what to do with demands yet, so maybe that should be addressed before I play?
Alright, you've got me sold. However - I'd still look to build HG somewhere. The GE points could make the difference between rushing UN or slow-building it.
1. Tested it in WB, I can show you pictures if you like? (In the test game).How do you know???
Did you see the face of the archer, he is heading NE.
As we said earlier it is possible that Saladin has a coastal city but it isn't this one and it wouldn't be connected to his Capital.
The Archer's facing only indicates where he came from, not necessarily where he's going.
If we're whipping the second wb from Pali (2 turns from growth to size 3) then I'm not sure we absolutely need 2 workers down there to finish the cows as it grows to size 3. It would free up a worker to do something else?
I'll test it in a moment.
EDIT: Okay we only need 1 worker to complete Cows in time. I propose we send 1 worker to Bombay to chop the remaining forest
3rd worker could start pre-chop if Zara doesn't go for wheat or start Mining the grassland hill?
Bonne chance, tu cherches un nouveau boulot ou ce sont des contrats?Sorry I don't have much time to discuss lately, for instance I have two interviews today
About the HG, I think I've made my point in the previous posts. As Diplo Victory is the first priority, I would put a GE in the first priority as well. You're welcome to propose another shot better for generating a GE.
To be honest, I don't really care about +1 pop and +1 health. And HG should be 150/1.75+450/2.75 = 250h only.
Also it's not that I dislike ToA, but we have better things on which we can put hammers. And at this point, the chance to grab it becomes slimmer and slimmer.
About expansion: according to the west coast we explored, one settler is enough for blocking Saladin, though we have capacity to rush 2 more. To the north, there is no potential competitor so far.
Sacrifying so many pops in Delhi to rush one irrevelant settler doesn't sound very wise to me, let alone we can spam them even faster with Bureau and they could growth better under OR.
Do we plan on OR and revolting to Confu somewhere in the future? (at least for short bursts it could be useful)
I also like HG for the GE points, but I guess we can always run an Engineer post-Metal Casting and hope for the best again. Still, that doesn't completely bar out HG, it tends to go post-AD and there should be a time when Delhi doesn't have too much things to do.
@Duckweed
If we were to rush a settler, where would he go from the overseas area we now know?
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