SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Ok.

So :

We move chariot back to Vijay instead of WIII Warrior? (works out just fine)

and

Rice or Horse?

Then I can put together the final plan for review (Which is pretty much dingding's horse-expansion, or the rice-expansion I posted a bit earlier today.. see the 2 850BC saves for comparisons). I guess we sort of had majority for doing horse (to make sure we got it), but don't know how we stand now :)

@dingding:
Temple, indeed if ToA fails.
 
I favor Rice over horse if Horse is 3rd city. I don't want to risk losing another spot to Zara while we wait for another settler.

If we go horse first then 3rd city is overseas as per dingding's plan with the small alteration of not whipping the last wb (see my post about it - sorry gotta run to work can't link to correct post).
 
@ bugg123

Your set is going to handle 3 settlers
Current settler on Rice
Next settler from Bombay for the gold site
3rd settler from Delhi for the horse -- Whip it immediately if zara's 4th settler is out early than expect and are capable of beating us there.

Why do we need 2nd galley? The galley to the gold site can be used for the northern island. I'd start a worker or settler in Vij at size 4 depending on what's built in Bombay. It's very high chance that there's no AI in the northern island and hence it's probably small, otherwise the game designers were too generous to give us too much land.:crazyeye:

Edit:
Don't send the settler all way to the gold site, unload it in the nearest offshore and let it march the site himself, that's a reason why I want the chariot escort. Another alternative way is sending a worker with him for exploring and security.

I don't have clear idea on 8th and 9th city, my feeling is that they should be oversea since it's going to add 1 more trade route commerce when the trade routes from AIs run out.

About begging

100g from zara and 40g from Jus is safe. Trade any extra health source (even it's single one) for gold even that's 1g as long as there's sufficient health for Delhi at size 8.
 
I agree with pretty much what Duckweed said.

Unfortunately the Chariot can't make it in time to load on the galley with current plan but it can always follow later if there's barb activity. If we want to wait for the chariot then that means we don't need to slave Pataliputra so much. Personally I think the area should be pretty safe [they should enter Saladin's culture] but there's always the risk of a barbarian lingering around that area.

What remains to decide is what to do with Vijay. I proposed a couple of workboats for exploration. We can add a settler after that or a worker or even a granary if we want to whip that city a bit.

Cities 8+:

There's a few spots remaining on our island, namely triple-clams & fish+deer+lakes. There's also the crabs area but that could go with another overseas city that grabs the 3rd gold. And finally there are 2 areas we haven't completely defogged that could contain some decent food. It will also depend on what we find up north... I still believe there's an islands chain seeing how Justinian's wb went missing for several turns.

One last thing: it probably won't happen given the AIs we met so far but there's always the possibility of an AI finishing Alphabet during the set. If that happens perhaps take a quick stop so we can decide how to deal with it.
 
kossin said:
The rule of thumb for begging is every 30 turns on Normal if successful, 40 if it fails. I'm not sure if this scales with speed however, need to dig up the code I guess.
Click to expand...

I made a mistake. The "forget rate" is 5% per turn in Normal speed. I think it varies accordingly so it's 3.33% in Epic.

Statistically, you can say 20 turns on Normal if successful, (20 * number of failures) if it fails. I guess it's 30 turns on Epic here, and (30 * number of failures) in our game.

I still don't think begging is necessary unless we need some gold in the final turn of research of Currency. Furthermore, I doubt if Zara has that money to give.
 
I'm Ok with the 5th city on the Rice and the 7th on the Horse.
That saves a galley and avoids some risk.
BTW the northern island should be jungle instead of forests as per the test game.

@ Bugg:
Need some modifications about the workers' micros.
 
dingding said:
I made a mistake. The "forget rate" is 5% per turn in Normal speed. I think it varies accordingly so it's 3.33% in Epic.

Statistically, you can say 20 turns on Normal if successful, (20 * number of failures) if it fails. I guess it's 30 turns on Epic here, and (30 * number of failures) in our game.

I still don't think begging is necessary unless we need some gold in the final turn of research of Currency. Furthermore, I doubt if Zara has that money to give.
Click to expand...
1-(0.95)^20 = 0.6415 = 64% chance of forgetting
1-(0.95)^30 = 0.7853 = 78.5% chance of forgetting
...
40 turns is 87% and so on

Just remember we can't beg gold before finishing Currency :p (guess you meant Civil Service).

Each successful beg is less time at 0% slider so we should beg all we can.

>>>Begs should be written down so we can plan out when to beg next. Take note of them and write it in your report or make annotations Alt+S in the game around the capital.

dingding said:
I'm Ok with the 5th city on the Rice and the 7th on the Horse.
That saves a galley and avoids some risk.
BTW the northern island should be jungle instead of forests as per the test game.

@ Bugg:
Need some modifications about the workers' micros.
Click to expand...
We need to figure out the micro of Vijay as well.
 
About Vijay:

I don't have time to test it now. Either we whip a granary or let it grow slowly while building what we need (workboats).

imo we need 2 workboats from Vijay to go on with Exploration, one for Izzy and one north. After that, we can decide what we need. An extra worker wouldn't hurt at all, Delhi is getting closer to needing cottages and we'll be shipping workers overseas as well. Also an Axe is possibly needed to settle up north but that can wait.
 
Vij building 2 WBs is good, one for the gold city, another one to scout the northern island a little bit and timing it for the Fish/Horse site. I think Bombay should start a worker instead of settler since we will be short of workers after 3 cities settled and the settler from Vij won't be late. Vij don't need granary now.
 
I tried a test game. I think 3 WB is needed, chopped one from Pata to send to the gold city; two built in Vijay, one to the east and one to the north.

Vijay can hit 5 pop after these 2 WB and start spamming settlers i/o Bombay.
Bombay can handle the workers btw.

The WB for Horse city is conditional. We can build it in Vijay or chop it in the city itself.

About exploration:
WIII warrior can move to the cow site of Aksum, wait for Isa's culture pop. If it pops before the first WB in Vijay, we can send this WB to the north; otherwise, send the first one to the east and the second one to the north.

May I remind that the 5 players we know are almost ALL born in the Southern Hemisphere (Justine is not 100% sure, but almost), it's reasonable to suppose that the other two are in the Northern part. Hope to explore the northern islands ASAP.

Another thing: the 4 resources required (Fur, Silk, Dye and Ivory), two are tropical (Ivory+Dye), one is temperate (Silk) and one is polar (Fur). The tropical part of the map, included the northern islands, is doubtlessly crucial indeed.
 
I also prefer the wb from Pataliputra for gold site, it gets there almost on time.

As dingding says, if the north isn't large, we can always use the wb for a new city.

I wouldn't worry too much about resources location seeing as this is a cooked map. Especially the fur which is probably on a small island filled with barbarians.

~~~

I'm trying to fix my BTS (screwed something up when installing newest BUG and BULL). Hopefully it doesn't take too long and I'll try to propose something for worker movements towards the end of the set. Same for Vijay I guess.
 
Do we want a final settler from Bombay before starting workers there? (Done in EDIT:6 at end of this turnset). I think maybe a final settler. Workers will take 9 turns to slowbuild.

I'm assuming we don't whip Vijay and slowbuild 2 WB before starting settlers there? (Done 825BC with 2xWB, hitting size 5 that turn)?

We could let Chariot finish up exploring our lands (by 2x silver and by deer) heading for Vijay or Pata (to help protect and/or explore offshore).

Turnset:

Spoiler :

T114:
Slider @ 100%

Workers:
FW on hill near Vijay goes to Bombay
FW in 2S of Vijay goes to Pig, road and cancels
FW in 1S1W of Bom chops and cancels
FW E Bombay chops

Units:
WIII Warrior moves towards Aksoum.
WB Explores west
Settler towards rice

Cities:
Pata: 2F2C=>2F1H
Delhi: 2F2C=>1F3H1C

T115:
Workers:
FW in Bom goes 1S1W of Bom and chops
FW in Pata and FW in 1S1W of Bom go to Cow and pasture

Units:
Chariots explores our land and heads to Vijay/Pata.

Cities:
Varanasi Founded on Rice, start Granary
Vijay : Takes back marble

T116 :
Workers:
FW in 1S1W of Bom goes to 3N of Delhi and chops

Cities:
Vijay 3H=>4F1C

T117 :
Slider to 0%

Workers:
FW in 2E of Bom goes to 1E of Bom and chops

Cities:
Pata whips WB. 2pop: 1 on Pig, 1 on Cow

T118 :
Workers:
2FW on Cow go on the Pig and road
2FW in Bom go S of Vijay and roads (can't find anything better)

Units:
WB from Pata -> Fishing Boat
Settler from Bombay -> Pata

Cities:
Pata builds Gallley. 2pop: 1 on 2F1H, 1 on Cow
Delhi builds settler
Vijay finish GLH, builds WB
Bombay starts Worker or final settler

T119 :

Workers:
1FW on Pig goes 1N of Pata and chops.
1FW on Pig goes 2S of Vijay and farms
2FW cottages Varan

Cities:
Pata whips Galley. 1pop on Pig.


T120 :
Research Slider 100%

Workers:
FW in 2S of Vijay goes to Varanasi and helps cottage.

Units:
Galley out in Pata, settler and warrior in Pata load and goes to the 2 gold spot.


Cities:
Pata builds WB
Delhi whips settler. 3pop: 2 on Corns, 1 on Silver


T121:

Units:
Settler out in Delhi, goes to Horse+fish

T122:
Workers:
FW in 3N of Delhi goes to 2N3E of Delhi and chops
3FW in Varan goes W and builds cottage.

Cities:
Bom takes the horse
Varanasi switches to Cottage

T123:
Currency in, set research CS, Slider to 0%

Units:
WB out of Vijay goes East to explore

Cities:
Vijay build WB.


T124:
Workers:
1FW in Pata goes 1W and chops

Units:
WB goes to 2 gold spot
Galley in the west unloads settler and warrior between 2 golds, 2S of the fish.
Unloading Warrior on Gold-hill, then settler, and starts heading back to fetch worker (+chariot?)


Cities:
WB in Pata -> Granary
Agra founded near Horse, assign Artist, start WB

Revolt to CS.

T125:
Workers:
2 workers move towards Agra
1 worker moves towards Pata (Can farm 2S1E of Vijay, or do some roadwork. I assume we want 2 workers to mine golds?)

Units:
Galley go back to fetch workers for gold.


Cities:
Gold-city founded, start Granary, turn an Artist.
Delhi 1F3H1C=>3F1C.
Varnasi works 2 cottages


T126:

FW out in Bombay (or settler in 5)
[stop and upload the save]
 
Alright, everything is fixed - had to uninstall and reinstall :(

~~~

@plan
T114
Moving the WIII warrior will leave 3 tiles for barbarians to spawn from. I suggest to leave him there until Zara pops borders

T116-...
Maybe we should consider getting the first wb in Vijay out sooner to meet Izzy. We lose some food because we'll be working the Stone longer but we can gain 2 turns on the wb this way. The alternative is to change to 4F1C on T117 instead which gains 1 turn on the wb at the cost of 4 food. The earlier we meet Izzy, the earlier we gain her trade routes. Also if we miss GLH we gain 3 gold more...

My vote would be for 1 more turn of Stone and delay growth 1 turn.

T118
Worker in Bombay. Vijay can take care of the next settler and Bombay can make an Axe after the worker to grow to 3 and have something stronger for garrison in case it's needed.

T120
I'm not sure why but if you turn the slider to 100% on T119 instead, then to 0% on T121 when out of gold, you only need 90% on T122 to finish Currency. More gold saved for CS... maybe the overflow is different however?

T124
You forgot 1 FW move by Varanasi, one will be free to move that turn after cottage is done.
I'm not sure if we want 2 workers over there, it might be a while before the galley is free to come pick them up again. 1 should be enough - he can explore the landmass a bit after he is done maybe. There are 2 things to do: pasture horses and mine hill by Vijay for 5th pop so send him in that direction (1E of Vijay).

T125
Just a small note... Varanasi will reach size 2 the previous turn.

~~~

Otherwise it's all good.
 
T116 -- Why send a worker to chop the forest 3N of Delhi? I think it's better to save it later and also Rice city need worker force.

T120 -- How about load a FW with the settler.
T122 -- Unload the settler and FW
T123 -- Galley 1SE and load the warrior and galley 1NW. FW moves 2 tiles a time and settler follows.
T124 -- Unload the warrior and Galley goes back to fetch the chariot.

This way guarantee the safety and make all the units moves efficient.

Bombay starts a worker after the settler.
 
Duckweed said:
T116 -- Why send a worker to chop the forest 3N of Delhi? I think it's better to save it later and also Rice city need worker force.

T120 -- How about load a FW with the settler.
T122 -- Unload the settler and FW
T123 -- Galley 1SE and load the warrior and galley 1NW. FW moves 2 tiles a time and settler follows.
T124 -- Unload the warrior and Galley goes back to fetch the chariot.

This way guarantee the safety and make all the units moves efficient.

Bombay starts a worker after the settler.
Click to expand...

T116 chopping: In this way we can finish ToA at 800BC. Otherwise we'll have to finish it 5-6 turns later. In terms of risk and of output (ToA gives 1 hammer + 2 commerce + 1 gold + 5.25 beakers + 10 GPP per turn, multiplied by 5-6 turns), it should be the better way. BTW maybe chopping the two trees in the BFC would be more lucrative (1-2 turns earlier of ToA).

About Galley loading and movement: That's too much of risk to unload the settler on an unfogbusted land like this, but more importantly, we don't gain anything more from an earlier improvement of gold because the new city shouldn't work on the gold mine before 2 pops.

The FS can stay in Pata to finish chopping the WB. The WB arrives just in time when the new offshore city pop its culture border to build the fishing boat. The Galley can fetch the FS to improve the gold mine. It will be finished just at the time when the city hits 2 pops.
 
@ Bugg:

T122:
You can move 2 FS to the hills of Vijay and mine it. Just leave 1 FS in Varan to cottage.

Varan's 2nd pop can be turned to an artist to pop the culture. In consequence, you don't need to finish that cottage that early.

Same with the horse city, it's first pop can work as artist, so you can finish the mine in Vijay first (just at the time it hits 5 pop iirc) and then improve the horse.

If you don't have sth to whip as your plan suggests, you can revolt to CS at this turn if no extra maintenance is required.

T124+125+126:

Galley is able to unload settler+warrior on the gold by consuming only 1 movement. You can use the other movement to come back already. Like this:
Spoiler :

On the other site, the FS in Pata has done it's purpose of chopping the WB. I don't mind if Granary + LH + Library were built by whipping. So:
T124: FS in Pata goes 1W to chop and cancel.
T125: FS in Pata goes 1W to chop and cancel.
T126: FS in Pata loads on the Galley. Galley goes back.
(T127: Galley unloads FS)

I have a question: what tiles will you work on when you build the 2 WB in Vijay?

Iirc, if we work on FP, Horse, Marble and Cow, Vijay can reach 5 pops at the time when the 2nd WB is out. As per your plan however, Bombay takes the horse so it can't work like this, right?

I prefer finishing the WB and reaching 5 pops at the same time, then Vijay can spam settlers just at size 5 pop.

In this approach, I object to whipping WBs in Vijay considering that the WB is not very urgent and it's the second best hammer city we have.

@ All:

About the next unit in Bombay:

I prefer a settler than a worker. In my test, workers are still enough at the point. On the other hand, the settler can come out just at the time the galley arrives in Vijay.

About the chariot:

I think the landmass of Saladin is pretty safe. We have money to upgrade the Warrior if it's really needed. I don't want to bother sending the chariot there.

Apparently the northern island/landmass is more worth sending a chariot for exploration/escort.
 
The competition becomes more and more interesting right now.

To my surprise, it seems that only a few teams went for all the 3 wonders we've been chasing for. Most of them built 1 or 2 of them.

The performance of the team T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't is impressive. They seemed to have submitted 60 last turns within 2-3 days without wasting any time on the discussion :O
 
@duckweed:

About chopping trees T116+. If we want ToA faster (and don't want to chop BFC forests for now) isn't it ok? I think I aggree with dingdings post on this.

T122 -- Unload the settler and FW
Click to expand...
Where do you propose to do this? E of southern Gold? Isn't that risky? (We don't know for a fact there are no Barbs in the fog)


@dingding:

Aggree on worker going towards Agra and mining before pasture while Agra assigns artist early.

About movement of Galley, it's what I'm doing in the turnset proposed - at T124. (Sorry if it was a bit unclear).

Good catch on the "Bombay takes horse". It's just a leftover from the earlier turnset (just edited the old one and forgot to take it out). I am working FP+Marble+Cow+Horse all the way, and WB #2 finished 825BC at the same time Vijay reaches pop 5.

About next build in Bombay: I also think I prefer the settler in Bombay first (done in 6), then workers. And I think the chariot is more useful on the northern site (It'll finish exploring all of Zara + all of our land and make its way back to Vijay in time for escort duties.

Finally, I aggree with workermove from Pata to hook up with galley and go for Gold and then pulling Galley back towards Vijay to hook up with Chariot + settler.
 
Well, you are throwing the points I proposed back. I'm fine to chop a forest for faster ToA. However, there's no different of forests in BFC or outside, if you prefer to chop, I'd chop the one 1S since it will be gone anyway.

Why don't you try my proposal of the move? I think it's a pretty safe move. Unload the FW 1st on the tile E of the gold. I don't think there's any barbarian. All the old one should be gone now, if there's new one, they started to move toward S or W to Saladin's land. This move save the galley turn and also the faster to connect gold mines and we can always sell them for gold.

Edit:
Sorry I have not run any test recently and spent all my weekend on BOTM 30, so my comments were only based on imagination. Where did you want to settle the gold site? I think it should be 1SW of Fish as it can work on the fish tile immediately. We can send the WB from Pat to the gold site 1st so that the gold city can work on the improved fish tile immediately at the time it is founded, we don't need culture pop and can work on the gold tile much earlier.
 
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