SGOTM 11 - Who Dat?

Bombay will be pop 1 and working only 1 tile, and that should be a mined plains hill. I forget if I already mined that deforested hill; if not, the worker should be making that mine.

In my test game I chopped the third forest (the one just outside the borders), and that was necessary to get Oracle in around the same time Writing completed.

Settler once we grow to the cap sounds fine to me. Math could be a long way away - do we really want to wait that long before chopping forests to pump out the settler? We could do with that coastal city soon.

By the way, are we still planning to get Pyramids? We need a stone city (4th city?), and Masonry (and Math??). I'm assuming we build it in Delhi where we have lots of forests to chop.
 
Bombay will be pop 1 and working only 1 tile, and that should be a mined plains hill. I forget if I already mined that deforested hill; if not, the worker should be making that mine.
...
By the way, are we still planning to get Pyramids? We need a stone city (4th city?), and Masonry (and Math??). I'm assuming we build it in Delhi where we have lots of forests to chop.

yes, it is working the mined PH. But one of the tiles the workers are currently chopping is another PH...so I was referring to the 2nd PH in the borders which is still forested (but about to be cleared).

I thought we were placing the 3rd city by the stone on the coast. Maybe I misunderstood.

I will pull down the real save tonight and start my turnset. I have enough info to play at least 10 turns...then I'll post some more info.

cas
 
Cool, good luck. It will be really interesting to see what's to the SW and NW.

From my test, it's not worth spending worker turns mining the second hill at the moment. After Oracle, Bombay should be working the oasis to grow, and after the border pop will be working the corn and the cow. So no need for a second mined hill for a long time.

P.S. I hope neither Justy nor Zara develops Judaism ... they should want to become good Confucianists!
 
Ok, I played to 2175BC. I will play a few more turns until I have 100% western fogbusted, but wanted to break for pics and some advice on game mechanics with the 'finish writing / finish Oracle' thing. We are one turn from getting writing. We are 3 turns from Oracle, but the worker can chop it this turn. I know with ONE city, I can finish researching a tech and finish Oracle the same turn...because the tech finishes first. But I'm not 100% confident in the mechanics with TWO cities. Someone with more knowledge please advise if I need to hold off chopping Oracle until NEXT turn or should I chop it THIS turn and writing will finish before the build ?

Today must be my lucky day because I survived all 4 barb battles. 2 of them odds were heavily in our favor (defense in forests). The other two were in wide-open space. :eek: The far NW warrior is currently healing...I think he is at 1.6/2 so two more turns until I can explore the final fogged NW coast.

Here are pics of the land:
SGOTM11 Dehli area-map.JPG SGOTM11 West of Dehli.JPG SGOTM11 Bombay area.JPG SGOTM11 West of Bombay.JPG

Here are pics of the current city status/builds:
SGOTM11 Dehli city 2175BC.JPG SGOTM11 Bombay city 2175BC.JPG

Once I finish the warrior in Dehli, I can fogbust the entire western area by moving warriors around...assuming I don't lose one in the process. I'm a little concerned about barbs to the east of us since Zara seems to be content with one city ? :confused: Is he building an early wonder like Pyramids ?

We can now see Zara's research...he finished BW and just started Sailing.

Judaism was founded 2275BC but neither Zara nor Justinian switched to it...so another AI founded it. Justinian finished writing in 2225BC because OB became available and traded. Another forest grew 1SW of Bombay. The worker is on the forest 1N-1NE of Bombay and can finish the chop this turn.

I did run binary research, but switched to 80% last turn because it gets us writing 1 turn faster.

I think we need to consider chopping/whipping the settler for our 3rd city (settle somewhere around stone) since we will have wheel pretty soon. I'd go settler first, then grow while building library.

cas
 
Lucky round cas :)

I believe you can chop this turn and writing will come in before Oracle, but if we're at all uncertain, I would recommend waiting that 1 extra turn to be sure. We would be very unlucky if another AI finished the Oracle this turn.

Once I finish the warrior in Dehli, I can fogbust the entire western area by moving warriors around...assuming I don't lose one in the process. I'm a little concerned about barbs to the east of us since Zara seems to be content with one city ? :confused: Is he building an early wonder like Pyramids.

I think one of the patches (or updates to BUFFY?) changes the city visibility logic of the scoreboard, so that you only know the number of cities if you can see them, or you've traded recently. If you open the trade screen with Zara, does he offer any Ethiopian cities in trade?
 
Aha, I knew there was seafood SW of Delhi! :D

The land is generous - we've got horses in the stone site, an awesome GP farm, marble, and floodplains. It would be great to argue some city positions and dotmaps now that cas has mapped most of our continent.

BTW, I noticed this earlier - what's with the 3-food desert tile to the west (just north of our warrior)? That's the rare Non-Riverside Flood Plain, isn't it?

P.S. micro tip - if you do decide to chop out the Oracle, cas, we might as well start working the 3-food oasis tile now (assuming the chop hammers will finish the build).
 
Aha, I knew there was seafood SW of Delhi! :D
BTW, I noticed this earlier - what's with the 3-food desert tile to the west (just north of our warrior)? That's the rare Non-Riverside Flood Plain, isn't it?

Map-maker edit error I think. He edited the land around there and forgot to remove the floodplains setting from that desert tile.

In the test game, writing is finished before Oracle...so I'm 99% sure, but would like a couple more people to verify that is correct.

Also, more questions I thought of...

1) what should Bombay build after Oracle ? Library ? I'm leaning toward 1 more warrior (see question3)
2) switch to Confu asap I assume ?
3) send the missionary to Zara's capital ? He'll need an escort, so I guess I can delay 100% fogbusting of the western region and use the warrior finishing in Dehli. Or I can maybe use a warrior from Bombay if I build that after Oracle.


cas
 
Excellent news cas!

Nice barb luck, and nice extra forest again. And NICE lands revealed.

In the test game, writing is finished before Oracle...so I'm 99% sure, but would like a couple more people to verify that is correct.

You can make that 100% ;) Go ahead and chop.

Outlook:
2xFish+Pig site makes a very powerful GPfarm. And with our 3rd city able to claim BOTH stone and marble, we should probably consider literature as a priority tech.

Delhi build:
We could start a library next turn, grow to size 7, start settler-> whip 3 pop-> resume library/switch to castes while working the 3 good tiles and scientists with the rest. If we want to maximize beaker output, we will want to finish academy and library around the same time so we can get +75%:science: with enough gold in the bank to carry us through alphabet+math at least.

Bombay build:
I think we should just slowbuild warriors working the oasis for now. We could go for a couple of workers at size 3, working cow/wheat/oasis. Library will not do very little for that city for a long while. Building warriors, we will want to maximize food/commerce before hammers, so if we can chop/work oasis and still finish oracle in 1T, we should do so.

Workers: We should get our workers back to Bombay to improve cow+wheat asap. Border pops in 2 turns after Oracle AFAIK.

3) send the missionary to Zara's capital ? He'll need an escort, so I guess I can delay 100% fogbusting of the western region and use the warrior finishing in Dehli. Or I can maybe use a warrior from Bombay if I build that after Oracle.

I guess it is safest to send the missionary to Zara, but we can just use the warrior fortified in Bombay to escort. Or actually, no fogbusting should be needed, if we move the missionary 1SE, then 2SE, then gift it. As long as we do not end its turn next to the fogged tiles it is safe.

Other things to do when we finish Oracle:
-Open borders with Zara+Justin
-Switch to confu, but wait on civics until we whip Delhi.

Fogbusting:
-I'd get our path to the next city fogbusted before exploring the rest. We don't want a barb archer roaming the path with no defensive terrain around.

Edit: Zara still no 2nd city?? Wonder what that is all about. Maybe he is planning a city on an island or something (researching sailing) :confused:
 
An important observation is that we haven't seen any of the 4 required luxury resources yet. The game may be set up so that we need to trade for each one (or go on intercontinental conquest).

TMIT, just a reminder that you're on deck after cas finishes his turnset ...
 
Other things to do when we finish Oracle:
-Open borders with Zara+Justin

Fogbusting:
-I'd get our path to the next city fogbusted before exploring the rest. We don't want a barb archer roaming the path with no defensive terrain around.

I already OB with Justin...he finished writing before us. Are you sure we want to OB with Zara ? Aren't we trying to block him from settling west...and OB would defeat that purpose ? I guess we could always close borders if we see a settler headed west...but not if it happens in the first 10? turns right after we OB.

I'll look at the fogbusting towards the stone. I wasn't expecting to finish the settler that soon, but if we whip 3pop at 7, then it will finish sooner than I expected.

cas
 
The AI will not cross borders to settle (unless it is another island), so an OB will be fine. We need to OB with him if we want to send the missionary anyway, and we can get trade routes once we build a road to him.
 
The AI will not cross borders to settle (unless it is another island), so an OB will be fine. We need to OB with him if we want to send the missionary anyway, and we can get trade routes once we build a road to him.

haha. yes, i just realized (while playing) that I need OB to get the missionary to him. Duh. :hammer2:

cas
 
Ok, the save is uploaded. I played to 2000BC.

turn log:
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2450 BC to 2000 BC:

Turn 62, 2450 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 62, 2450 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior 3 (Delhi) (3.00)
Turn 62, 2450 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 62, 2450 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 62, 2450 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 3 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 65, 2375 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior (2.20)
Turn 65, 2375 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 65, 2375 BC: Gandhi's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 66, 2350 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior 2 (Delhi) (3.00)
Turn 66, 2350 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 66, 2350 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 66, 2350 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 2 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 69, 2275 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 70, 2250 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior 3 (Delhi) (2.00)
Turn 70, 2250 BC: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 70, 2250 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 3 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 72, 2200 BC: Zara Yaqob adopts Slavery!

Turn 73, 2175 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 73, 2175 BC: Gandhi has completed The Oracle!

Turn 74, 2150 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Bombay!
Turn 74, 2150 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 74, 2150 BC: Gandhi converts to Confucianism!

Turn 75, 2125 BC: The borders of Delhi have expanded!
Turn 75, 2125 BC: The borders of Bombay have expanded!

Turn 77, 2075 BC: You have trained a Settler in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 78, 2050 BC: Delhi has become happy.

Turn 79, 2025 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Delhi!
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Confucianism has spread in Aksum.
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Gandhi adopts Caste System!
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Zara Yaqob converts to Confucianism!
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior 2 (Delhi) (3.20)
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 79, 2025 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 2 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 79, 2025 BC: While defending, your Warrior 2 (Delhi) has killed a Barbarian Warrior!


I made a small error and forgot to switch to caste & run a scientist for a couple of turns (2075BC-2050BC) but we will grow a little faster because I was working the farmed grass (+2corn/silver). Not sure it will make much difference since we'll grow a turn or two sooner and be able to run a 2nd scientist sooner.

some misc notes:

I used the Confu missionary to explore a little of Zara's capital area before spreading religion. He has a second city now somewhere to the south. He only had 1 archer in his capital...size 3 and grew to size 4. Justin's workboat was seen on the NW coast again. Instead of moving the 3rd worker up to Bombay, I had him start mining the copper. It seemed a waste of moves to get him up to Bombay and then have to come back down to Dehli to start roads...we will finish wheel the turn after he is done mining. Then he can start building roads. Bombay could not work the wheat for a while anyway...there are two workers up there just starting to farm it. Maybe it would have been a better use of the 3rd worker to pre-chop more forest...not sure. But even if we leave the copper mine 1 turn from completion (and road it) so we can keep building warriors...that is good preparation in case a barb spear/axe appears on our border. With only warriors, a barb spear/axe could cause some major damage by the time we rush the full turns of a mine and get an axe out.

SGOTM11 Zara lands.JPG

There is a roaming barb SE of Bombay / NE of Dehli. It has been going back & forth between two tiles...not entering our borders. I pulled the warrior (combat promo) out of Bombay to sit on the cows just in case. Bombay is building another warrior currently.

SGOTM11 roaming barb.JPG

I assume the third city is going on the coast...1N of the settler current position. It did not have enough movement to get there this turn & settle, so I left it on the warrior this turn. There is a small possibility of a barb in the area...it was fogbusted pretty good...but not perfect. We might want to move the warrior currently babysitting the settler 1SW...then 1E to fogbust. There are some fogged tiles in the middle of the map. I did the best fogbusting I could with what we have available.

SGOTM11 settler.JPG

There is one tile to the far south near the gp farm area that is fogged and I can't cover right now. It is far away from our cities. More important, there are a couple of fogged tiles in the middle because I had to escort the settler...

SGOTM fogged tile.JPG

I made the test save match all the land we can see...and I think it is 100% accurate on builds, tile improvements, research, etc. That way, TMIT can micro-test everything. I know how much he loves micro management in Civ4. :p

View attachment SGOTM11TEST cas fixed BC-2000.CivBeyondSwordSave

Forgot to pull a screenshot of EP points and the other advisor screen people like. Maybe TMIT can post that info when he begins his turnset.

cas

ps...I seem to be having a conversation with only Beestar/Fluro. Is everyone else lurking/reading at least ?
 
I'm here, haven't had a lot of time to test stuff but you guys are doing great.

Zara might have Pottery and not Agri? He's even built a cottage on the plains but has no farms. Wierd. He's really gonna help us out with teching once those FP cottages mature. We'll have to consider gifting him relevant techs to direct his research. Is anyone an expert on AI tech preferences?

Have we decided whether to tech masonry before we switch off research? It feels like we'll be cutting it close with 'Mids, so I would support masonry first if it helps us get Mids even one turn faster (need to test how long it takes to pop borders in the new city). Masonry's pretty cheap anyway, and we may have trouble trading for it.
 
...Have we decided whether to tech masonry before we switch off research? It feels like we'll be cutting it close with 'Mids, so I would support masonry first if it helps us get Mids even one turn faster (need to test how long it takes to pop borders in the new city). Masonry's pretty cheap anyway, and we may have trouble trading for it.

Ditto on the highlighted blue section. We need to research it to have any chance at Mids/HGardens. No one will trade Masonary by the time we need it...unless we run into Mansa Musa Mali.

cas
 
Hmm, We are only at 2000BC. We should have plenty of time for mids. We need a border pop first anyway. Chopping with math+stone will be quick.

We have not tested anything beyond this point, so we should probably not rush the next sets.

Notes:

-There is a landmass east of Zara. I think we should explore that direction with the first workboat.

-Delhi is capped at 5 citizens while whip anger wears off. Since there is no reason to grow into unhappiness just yet, We should probably grow/starve with 2 corn, silver, 2 scientists alternating with 1 corn, silver, 3 scientists. We should MM to almost starve to size 4 when the GS pops to get its benefit asap. At some point, we should get religion spread to boost the cap though.

-Building the road from Delhi to Bombay is going to be the most important.

-The first GS should be born a bit more than 10 turns from now this way, which means that NOW is the time to run a 0% slider. I think 1 more turn at 100%, and then the minimum % needed to finish wheel, then 0% until the GS.

-Next techs masonry-alphabet?

-We need to figure out whether we want to grow two scientists in Delhi, because otherwise we will need to fire them all after the first GS to avoid GP contamination. I think we will probably want to run scientists for more than the first GP, and we can use the 2nd one to bulb Philo anyway. Afterwards, the GP farm should take over.

-The coastal city (Should we begin naming our cities?) will want to whip a monument as soon as it hits size 2. It would be great if we could pop our GS first, so we can take a break in running caste there. Maybe we can combine this with whipping the library in Delhi.

-The coastal city looks to be best used for production, since it has no strong food sources to power specialists. It can work cow+horse+marble+stone+mined grass hill+farmed FP at size 6 with 1 surplus food. This will yield a base production value of 16:hammers:, which is pretty decent at this point. Size 6 is the cap with religion before representation.
We probably need a city to pump out missionaries, and this looks like a good option, along with the galleys to ship them.

-It needs a worker to farm the FP asap. We are probably a bit short on workers, so we could maybe chop/grow one at Bombay.

-TMIT is a fogbusting expert, so he can probably fix us up to avoid more hairy barb encounters ;)

Ill try to play a test within these general guidelines to work out the details.
 
I just played a bit of a test (0% science after wheel, then masonry,alpha):

* The "coastal city" (Marbstonhorscow?) needs a worker or three. The options are the Delhi worker currently mining the bronze, or the worker at Bombay. The Delhi worker could head up to the new city. The spare Bombay worker can also get to the new city fairly quickly.

* If we don't run an Artist in Marbstonhorscow then it's 1700bc (turn 92) before we can whip a monument (assuming just one worker making a farm: he's too slow to complete a farm before size 2). Then it's still 15 turns till borders pop (so we can't start building a quarry till turn 107). This feels slow.

*Running an Artist seems like a better play. In this case the border pops very quickly (1875, turn 85). Note that in this case, it's actually not really worth farming the floodplain: better to build roads; then pasture the horse or cow as the first improvement (probably the horse with 2:food:3:hammers:2:commerce:). Don't forget to stop running the Artist once the borders pop!

* In this case the rate limiting factor for beginning Mid's is the road from Marbstonhorscow to Delhi.

* It's tricky to time the Library/GS from Bombay, I tried a few things. Finally I pre-built a worker to 36/90 hammers. Then the turn after I popped the GS (with food deficit, I think 2 food left at size 5?), I whipped the worker with overflow, and finished the Library in two turns with some micro. I finished the GS&worker&Library by turn 95 (1625) but at the cost of some commerce (I wasn't working the silver mine for 2 turns). Someone else can probably do better. Masonry comes 2 turns after we restart science.

* I completed the quarry in 1475 and Delhi started Pyramids.

* I got Alphabet in 1175 (turn 113) but this is way far into the future down unknown pathways. By this time there's plenty of time to pre-chop so we'll need to decide whether to wait for Maths (~12 turns) before we complete 'Mids.

* We probably won't use most of the farms around Delhi again, so if workers are spare they can build cottages.

*Zara settled Lalibella near the rivers to the E of Delhi around 1500 bc
 
First off, great job on the testgame :goodjob:

I ran a few tests, and figured out a few things. Warning: longass post!

Major points:

-The road between Delhi and Bombay is a priority

-We need workers, and not just a few more

-Like pnp_dredd, I like running an artist in "that city". And I don't find time for improvements within the next turnset.

-Instead of trying to time the academy with the library, I like just running 1 scientist at size4, 2 at size 5, and let it pop. Afterwards, at size 6, one can switch to worker or settler, whip, and finish the library afterwards.

-I didn't quite get the timing down, but we can run a few turns of the slider to get masonry in time, and then let the library finish before resuming 100%. Edit: Worked it out as outlined below.

-Math before Alpha may be better, or at least needed if we are to power the pyramid chops in time.

Here are the details of my playing up to T96. I did a few bits of testing worker moves in particular, and this gives the best results.
Detailed Micro Plan:

T80-2000BC
-Nothing

T81
-Settle Vijaynagara (or whatever we call it) -> run artist -> (pre)build courthouse? (not really important with 1:hammers:/turn, we switch to workboat when fishing arrives)
-Move warrior south to fogbust
-Worker(sitting in Bombay) to wheat farm-> farm
-Slider to 30%:science:
-CANCEL orders on worker mining copper.

T82
-Warrior S and fortify
-Bombay micro-> switch from oasis to cow. This is to finish the warrior at growth.
-Wheel in, start Masonry -> Slider to 0%:science:
-Worker (copper miner)-> Move 2E and road

T83
-Nothing

T84
-Delhi size 5 -> Work 2 corn, silver, 2 scientists.
-Bombay size 2: warrior->worker. Work wheat farm+cows.
-Worker (done with wheat)-> go to PF (SW of Bombay)

T85
-Worker on PF chop, other wheat worker move to same PF
-Worker (at Delhi)-> begin road through unforested hills (to not lose worker turns moving)
-Fire artist in Vijay, work FP.

T86
-Worker on PF chop
-Bombay border pop. Potential issue here, when first planning cities, the culture borders would be closed here, but that was by settling the PH. We now have a narrow strip of land open. I don't think it will matter much as there is a long way to any good sites for Zara.

T87
-Chop complete, workers begin road to Delhi, through cows.

Note: A bit less detail from now on

T90
-Bombay worker->worker
-New worker: Chop the last Bombay forest
-Delhi-Bombay road complete

T91
-All three workers help road towards stone/Vijay. Road goes through the PF north of the corn, and through stone and grass next to Vijay.

T94
-Academy built, run 100%:science: this turn.
-Keep running scientists

T95
-Chop finished, worker begin road to Zara. This one may have better uses, but we do need the trade routes. We also need to mine the hills at Delhi.
-Road to Vijay complete. Note: it has to be through the grass, since the FP has higher worker turn cost.
-Delhi size 6, work 3 scientists. Switch to worker build.
-Slider to 0%:science:, masonry due in 1T

T96
NOTE: suggested end of turnset, due to difficult choices.
-Bombay: worker done, begin ???. Options: another worker (maybe better to grow now), monastary(for missionaries), courthouse.
-New worker help the other nearby worker with whatever it is doing
-Switch to slavery.
-Whip worker in Delhi-> override governor and work silver.
-Masonry in-> begin fishing.
-3 workers at Vijay build quarry on stone. ETA 4 turns, closely matching Delhi's library completion date.

This is pretty micro intensive, but I'm sure TMIT won't mind :D

Future
-Once quarry is done, we need to improve the working tiles at Vijay, but we also need to mine the hills at Delhi. If the road to Zara isn't done, it should be soon.

-Once library is built, run 100% slider

-With fishing, whip a workboat in Vijay, and probably build another afterwards.

-Limit chops in Delhi to the two GHFs until math. Math after fishing may be better, since we will run out of gold after teching either alpha or math. Math is needed more than anything we can trade for right now.

-Bombay builds: I like monastary, but we may get Mono before it is needed anyway, which would make it a waste. Courthouse while growing may be best, and then resume worker/settler production at a decent size.

-Delhi: after library it starts its Mids->aqueduct->HG. It should run scientists at first, while waiting for mines to be built. Once it pops a 2nd GS, we will need to stop running scientists, to avoid GP-contamination. We should have two mines up, and hopefully two cottages too (assuming we get religion spread to push the cap to 7)
 
I like masonary & math before Alpha. Fishing too if we don't have that...can't remember.
I like using an artist in city#3 to pop borders instead of whipping an icky monument.
Fluro, when do we get the 4th settler with all that micro. I know we need workers, but I'd like to get the gp farm founded around turn 100. Maybe Bombay can build a settler instead of a monastary ?

I don't like sending the wb east for these 3 reasons:

1) We know Just is west. I would like to see his lands and maybe find some of those resources we need. Can we deduce anything from the advisor screens as to whether he knows anyone besides us and Zara ? Not very common for an AI to be isolated so I think we have a good chance of running into another AI.

2) Justinian wb returned west...or at least there was a Just workboat (same one?) on the NW coast a couple of turns ago. That was buried in one of my long posts. So if there was explorable land to the east...wouldn't he have kept going that way ? He has writing for OB, so getting through Zara would not have been a problem.

3) Zara hasn't met anyone else. How likely is it that someone else is within coastal reach to the east ?

cas
 
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