SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

On a different note:
Darn!!!!! you Dhoomstriker!

I decided to play a non-SGOTM game tonight just to relax and play a mindless game. I just spent 30 minutes on the first 2 turns deciding where to settle, what to work, what to tech and what to build. I would normally be halfway do

and BTW thanks for making me a better CIV IV player!!!!
 
105: Send warrior 7 towards the northeastern desert. I was going to just do a goto most of the way, but I can do it a turn at a time if people prefer
106: Worker 1 builds a road where he is standing.
107: Dehli switches to work the newly completed cottage
108: Research up to 100%. Worker 1 moves 1E and starts to partially chop (he has nothing better to do that still covers the fogbust square. Worker 4 roads the copper. Worker 3 moves NE and partial-chops for the sake of it.
109: Worker 4 moves N and builds a road on the forest.
110: Worker 4 moves NW and builds a road towards stone city. Riverdale switches to work the newly built cottage.
111: Worker 2 moves to chop 1W of riverdale into the granary. Make absolutely sure worker 1 has stopped chopping.
112: Meditation->Math. Worker 1 helps worker 4 finish the road for stone city this turn. Settler moves to settling location, does the fogbusting role for this turn in the process. Dehli starts another settler. From this point on, keep a close eye on Zara moving to the wheat city, as we can beat him to it by whipping the settler. Build a granary after this settler.
113: Research to 0%. Fire the priest. Settle stone city (in the marble, stone, cows, coastal location). Lightbulb Theology, hopefully Christianity in stone city. Spread christianity to the capital. Workers 1 and 4 build a floodplain cottage. Worker 2 moves to the plains forest hill marked as a pyramid chop.
114: The warrior should be arriving in the NE by now, if so shuffle all the warriors to the west and settle on on stone city while keeping everything fogbusted. Worker 2 prepares the plains forest hill for chopping.
115: Worker 3 starts preparing chops for pyramids. Riverdale switches to a 2 hammer tile to get the required 45 hammers in the granary.
116: Borders should have popped in stone city. Switch religeon from none to Confucianism. Switch civics to OR and slaver. Whip the granary in Riverdale. In the test game, this was the turn Zara's settler was spotted on the way to wheat.
117: Workers 1 and 4 build a quarry.
118-120: Nothing of note. Workers 2 and 3 prepare chops for the pyramids while 1 and 4 build the quarry. Continue to watch Zara and the wheat city. Dehli builds granary, grows, and works scientists as necessary, depending on when the settler is finished and settled. Dehli builds the pyramids after the granary. I may pause the turnset when I see Zara's settler. One thing that's probably worth doing is to invest some hammers in an axeman on a turn when Dehli is growing and working scientists (hence <= 6 hammers anyway), in preparation for using the axeman whipping trick the turn before Math comes in (after math we need to be chopping).
 
Everyone has gone to bed, so I've had a chance to catch up. I have a few comments.

First, what do you think about having our two northern spawn busters take one step east? Once the barb suicides on Riverdale, another barb will spawn. IIRC, if the warriors both moved east, they would cover the entire NE desert. Worker 1 would cover west of warrior 6? (the western-most northern warrior), giving us 100% coverage of the west, north, NE and south. If a barb appeared out of the fog in the desert, both warriors could retreat back west. However, I don't think there is a barb out there yet, but there could be one next turn once the barb by Riverdale dies.

105: Send warrior 7 towards the northeastern desert. I was going to just do a goto most of the way, but I can do it a turn at a time if people prefer

I suggest moving him manually. Keep him in our cultural borders as long as possible to save support costs. Only walk on forests or improved tiles. If worker 1 stays up by the stone until Stone City is founded, then I'm fine with sending him NE, but would prefer that he stay closer to Delhi as he heads north.

111: Worker 2 moves to chop 1W of riverdale into the granary.
If you're going to chop now, then I would suggest switching to OR and Confucianism. This will give us 25% more hammers. Hammers are scarce in Riverdale, so we could use the bonus. If you're not ready to revolt until after Stone is settled, can worker 2 build another cottage instead?

112: Meditation->Math. Worker 1 helps worker 4 finish the road for stone city this turn. Settler moves to settling location, does the fogbusting role for this turn in the process. Dehli starts another settler. From this point on, keep a close eye on Zara moving to the wheat city, as we can beat him to it by whipping the settler. Build a granary after this settler.

Very nice use of the settler to fogbust. :goodjob: When safe to do so, keep as many units inside our borders to avoid unit supply cost.

113: Research to 0%. Fire the priest. Settle stone city (in the marble, stone, cows, coastal location). Lightbulb Theology, hopefully Christianity in stone city. Spread christianity to the capital. Workers 1 and 4 build a floodplain cottage. Worker 2 moves to the plains forest hill marked as a pyramid chop.

I don't think we want to spread another religion to Delhi just yet. What will this gain us right away? It would allow us to build another temple, but we haven't built the Confucian temple yet.

I was thinking that we could use him to help fogbust the west. Once Stone City's borders expand, warrior 1 will be in our cultural borders. At this point, the Christian missionary can go outside our borders without any supply cost (BTW, the northern fogbusters can start moving east at this time too. You should only need two units to cover the entire N and NE.) The missionary could head south of Stone City to help fogbust so that Warrior 2 could safely take two steps west to unfog what's in the ocean to the far west.

Just to be clear, you're settling Stone W + NW of the stone on the plains tile right?

Also, if you do end up settling wheat city, where are you planning to put it? I vote for 1N of the oasis.


114: The warrior should be arriving in the NE by now, if so shuffle all the warriors to the west and settle on on stone city while keeping everything fogbusted. Worker 2 prepares the plains forest hill for chopping.

I just took a look at the map and I think two units can fogbust the entire N and NE (with worker 1's help). If the two warrior up there now move one tile east, they will cover every tile except the two desert tiles N and N+N of the desert hill 2W of Zara's clams. However, I believe these two tiles are within "view" of Zara's cultural borders, so Zara is covering these for us. Two units = 100% coverage.

Just to be safe, we could even take another step east with each unit. Even when worker 1 is chopping the forest, we should have 100% of the north.

115: Worker 3 starts preparing chops for pyramids. Riverdale switches to a 2 hammer tile to get the required 45 hammers in the granary.

This should ot be necessary if the chop is done later (see below).

116: Borders should have popped in stone city. Switch religeon from none to Confucianism. Switch civics to OR and slaver. Whip the granary in Riverdale. In the test game, this was the turn Zara's settler was spotted on the way to wheat.

Can the forest chop be done on this turn instead? Have worker 2 building a partial cottage on the previous turns and chop it now...

How much food is the food box in Riverdale right now? The ideal time to complete the granary is when the food box is half full on the turn it is completed (actually, half full after the whip since the amount of food required to grow will drop by 3F for each pop you whip). There's a bit more to it, but I don't have the ability to run a test game to provide the exact details. Doing it when the food box is half full is a good approximation, and it ensures that the granary will be full (i.e. food box will be half full) when we next grow.

I know that wasn't clear, so let me give you an example. Let's say that Riverdale has 2 pops. We will grow to 3 at 36 food. When we whip 1 pop, we will then grow to 2 at 33 food. 33 / 2 = 16.5 rounded down to 16. So, on the turn after we whip, our granary will be complete and we want to have right around 16 food in our food basket (at +3F/turn, we would whip when we have 13 food in the food basket). If we have less, we shouldn't whip yet, especially if there is a cottage for our second citizen to be working while we wait for our food basket to fill half way up.

117: Workers 1 and 4 build a quarry.

In my testing, I had all three workers in Stone City. That way, they were able to complete a flood plains cottage before Stone City's borders popped and then finish the quarry 50% faster compared to 2 workers. Can you make this work and still have time to pre-chop forests?

118-120: Nothing of note. Workers 2 and 3 prepare chops for the pyramids while 1 and 4 build the quarry.

Aren't there still worker tasks to do around Riverdale? Does worker 2 have time to lay down another cottage before heading off to Delhi? What about 2 more (three total)?

Continue to watch Zara and the wheat city. Dehli builds granary, grows, and works scientists as necessary, depending on when the settler is finished and settled.

Maybe I missed it, but you're going settler -> settler -> granary in Delhi, right? What do you mean when you say Delhi is building a granary but is working scientists timed with completion of the settler? Should the settler be done before starting the granary?

One thing that's probably worth doing is to invest some hammers in an axeman on a turn when Dehli is growing and working scientists (hence <= 6 hammers anyway), in preparation for using the axeman whipping trick the turn before Math comes in (after math we need to be chopping).

Before actually doing this, I suggest that it be tested to see if it actually does speed up the Pyramids or save the fifth forest. Whipping pops in Delhi is like killing our priests and scientists! ;) Plus, that axe will cost us 1 gold/turn and we don't really need him. Maybe if we do whip, it can be a temple instead...


I'm sorry that I can't be more help with actually running test games. Unless I can get some time while the baby is napping tomorrow... :lol:
 
First, what do you think about having our two northern spawn busters take one step east? Once the barb suicides on Riverdale, another barb will spawn. IIRC, if the warriors both moved east, they would cover the entire NE desert. Worker 1 would cover west of warrior 6? (the western-most northern warrior), giving us 100% coverage of the west, north, NE and south. If a barb appeared out of the fog in the desert, both warriors could retreat back west. However, I don't think there is a barb out there yet, but there could be one next turn once the barb by Riverdale dies.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'll confirm whether the worker reall covers all the necessary squares, and if so I'll do it.

I suggest moving him manually. Keep him in our cultural borders as long as possible to save support costs. Only walk on forests or improved tiles. If worker 1 stays up by the stone until Stone City is founded, then I'm fine with sending him NE, but would prefer that he stay closer to Delhi as he heads north.

Sure. Just out of curiosity, why walk on forests and improved tiles? If there's no barbs in sight then it doesn't really matter does it? If we're shuffling the warriors 1E I may send him NW instead of NE because he'll probably have a road or two to speed him up that way.

If you're going to chop now, then I would suggest switching to OR and Confucianism. This will give us 25% more hammers. Hammers are scarce in Riverdale, so we could use the bonus. If you're not ready to revolt until after Stone is settled, can worker 2 build another cottage instead?

Basically, the cost will be a few turns where that worker is hanging around riverdale rather than helping out with the pyramid chops. Riverdale is mostly going to be at 1 pop working the one cottage for the moment, so there's nothing much that needs doing. I might just build a road for a few turns, then save the chop like you say. It will delay the granary by a turn though because the religion is waiting on stone city to pop borders, and I can't get the hammers from the chop and whip in the same turn.


I don't think we want to spread another religion to Delhi just yet. What will this gain us right away? It would allow us to build another temple, but we haven't built the Confucian temple yet.

Ok, I'll leave the missionary alone for the moment then. We have no use for another fogbuster at that stage though, everything is busted anyway, so there's not that much else for it to do.

Just to be clear, you're settling Stone W + NW of the stone on the plains tile right?

Yes.

Also, if you do end up settling wheat city, where are you planning to put it? I vote for 1N of the oasis.

The irrigation trick makes that spot better than anywhere else, so that's what I was going with.

In my testing, I had all three workers in Stone City. That way, they were able to complete a flood plains cottage before Stone City's borders popped and then finish the quarry 50% faster compared to 2 workers. Can you make this work and still have time to pre-chop forests?

There's no need for 3 workers, as the stone is ready in time for the pyramids using just 2 workers. Moving a third up and back will just cost turns walking, which we will need instead for preparing the chops (especially if the riverdale worker is held up).

Maybe I missed it, but you're going settler -> settler -> granary in Delhi, right? What do you mean when you say Delhi is building a granary but is working scientists timed with completion of the settler? Should the settler be done before starting the granary?

Yes, settler->settler->granary. Sorry, it wasn't very clear, but the point I was making is that if I see an Ethiopian settler heading towards Wheat, I need to whip the settler immediately in order to get there first. As it's not clear exactly what turn Zara will do this, it's not clear exactly when the settler is whipped, and for how many population.

The interaction between the settler completion and settling date, the population and hammer output of Dehli, and the research of Math is tied together in a quite complicated way. That's basically what I was talking about there.

Before actually doing this, I suggest that it be tested to see if it actually does speed up the Pyramids or save the fifth forest. Whipping pops in Delhi is like killing our priests and scientists! ;) Plus, that axe will cost us 1 gold/turn and we don't really need him. Maybe if we do whip, it can be a temple instead...

Good point. A temple with OR is almost identical to an axeman for the purposes of this plan, so I will make the switch (unless there's a barb wandering around that we need to deal with instead).


Thanks for the excellent comments.

On the whole, subject to the comments you've made, which I think I've responded to fairly adequately, are you happy with the PPP to go ahead? I'd really like to get it done tomorrow morning (i.e. 14-18 hours or so from now), as my spare time dries up after that.
 
Do not move Warriors 3 and 6
First, what do you think about having our two northern spawn busters take one step east?
Moving east with our 2 northern Warriors is not only unnecessary, but it is preferred that you do not do so.

I intentionally put Warriors 3 and 6 in "the right places" so that the next player would have an easier turnset.

Here are the relevant points
1. We can see all of the land to the north. There is a bit of a hidden square that, via fog-gazing, is only covering Coast. Thus, we see all of the land area there.

With Warriors 3 and 6 in their current locations, plus with Zara's cultural borders, we have 100% Barb unit spawn-busting.

2. Barb Cities can still appear in spawn-busted land if it is not also fog-busted. The BEST location for us to also fog-bust is from the two Hills squares on which Warriors 3 and 6 are currently located. There is not better place to put them, so they should stay where they are.



If you don't believe me, do the same test that I did: open up the World Builder, destroy Zara's City (erase it) and then put your own City there. If you don't know how to place a City, place a Settler there, exit the World Builder, settle the City, and then re-enter the World Builder.

Use the Edit City button (the bottom left World Builder icon, I believe) to Edit the City and increase its culture until it had the same level that Zara's City had (probably somewhere under 750 Culture). Then, exit the World Builder. That way, you'll see the area that Zara's Cultural borders are fog-busting because they are now your cultural borders.


Once the barb suicides on Riverdale, another barb will spawn.
Perhaps, but not in our area. The west and north are 100% spawn-busted without needing to move our Warriors around. Even the south by the Ice Silver Resources is fog-busted (which gives visibility of the area and thus fog-busted implies that an area is also spawn-busted).

The only spot for a Barb unit to spawn could be to the SE of Zara. Even the south of Zara will be fog-busted (and thus also spawn-busted) by his southern cultural border. We are 100% safe from Barb unit spawning at the moment.

The only potential gap is if we aren't careful where we move Worker 1.

My plan had been:
Move Warrior 7 into Delhi. On the same turn, wake up Warrior 8 (gaining is one "free" movement with our Warrior spawn-buster) and send him towards the area that Worker 1 is now spawn-busting.

If you would rather use Warrior 7 to scout for Zara's Settler, that's fine, but he won't build another Settler until he settles. Now that the Barb unit to the south is going to die when Zara gets its turn before the Barbs get their turn and attacks (or after the Barb Warrior captures our City, for the unbelievers in our crowd), the south of Zara will be fog-busted for Barbs and only the SE should Zara have to worry about, where the continent probably snakes away, where one could meet the other AI or AIs that he met (remember, we don't want to meet those AIs yet, though!).

Thus, we have some time. I would instead suggest: Warrior 7 goes into Delhi. On the same turn that he arrives, wake Warrior 8. Send Warrior 8 to spawn-bust the west. That way, Worker 1 can build more useful improvements sooner, such as a Road on the Stone (if Stone City has yet to be settled) or such as Cottages for Stone City.

We SHOULD be able to get 2 Cottages down with 3 Workers at Stone City prior to needing to improve the Stone, since we're making another Settler, but at MINIMUM, we should get 3 Workers building a Cottage as soon as Stone City is settled. One Worker can arrive 1 turn later, by perhaps partially Chopping the PFor 1N of the GCopper for one turn. Yes, we want to save that PFor and not chop it completely, but eventually we may chop it, so it's better to gain that free Worker turn now than to spend all of the Worker's turn on moving, when he could instead both move and perform an action within the same turn.

We want 3 Workers on the task of making that Cottage, as EACH TURN that we delay the Cottage costs us 1 Commerce now and between 4 to 6 Commerce later.

Plus, Mitchum is right that 3 Workers improving the Stone will help you with the timing of being able to get 1 Cottage for sure and possibly at least partial work on additional Cottages at Stone City before improving the Stone.

Every turn where Stone City grows and it doesn't have an improved Cottage to work is yet another 1 Commerce forever lost now and forever lost for down the road between 4 to 6 Commerce. Each turn.


I would recommend using the Christian Missionary to spot-check whether Zara's got a Settler coming. If you've built the Roads properly, you'll be able to settle 3 turns after you whip. That should be enough time to get over there. If not, then you can use the Warrior 5, to pop out of and back into Riverdale every couple of turns, to see what you can see of Zara's capitol.


Be careful when moving extra units outside of our borders not to incur a Supply Cost of 1 Gold per Turn or more--there shouldn't ever be a need to do so on your turnset, but if it happens, be prepared to move back without our cultural borders the next turn (a test game where you watch our Gold per Turn gain or loss at the top left of the screen every time that you move a unit out of our borders would tell you ahead of time, so that you won't put yourself in a Gold-losing situation in the real game.


Worker Movement
Remember, if a Worker has a long way to travel, count his movement points. Try to perform an action along the way, but be sure to stop the Worker's action immediately, so that it doesn't accidentally complete instead of allowing you to keep moving the Worker to where you want him to go.

If you don't understand this concept, then perhaps you'd better get this concept fully understood before you play the turnset. I'd rather that we delay your turnset by a few days, if that's all the time that you have, if it means that you'll understand better how to fully leverage our Workers.


Walking in Forests, on improved squares, and on squares that cannot get Forests
Why do so? Well, think about how useful it is to chop one Forest. Imagine we could get another one of those for free? All we have to do is try our best not to walk in unForested squares that are horizontally or vertically adjacent to a Forest square.

If you walk in those squares, you disrupt the chances of a Forest growing (think of it like mowing the lawn when new seedlings are growing--if you don't mow, you might get trees growing and thus you might get a new Forest).

That said, squares with a Forest already on the square can't get another square, so you won't mess up Forest-regrowth chances by walking on an existing Forest.

Similarly, a square with an improvement on it, such as a Mine, cannot get a Forest growing on it, so you're safe to walk on that square without messing up the chance of geeting a free Forest.

If you walk on a square that CANNOT GET a Forest growing on it, such as an Ice square or a Desert square, or even a square that has no Forest to the 1N, 1E, 1S, and 1W of it, then you're also not messing up our chances of getting free Forests.


I don't mind if you "chain" goto movements, such that you hold down the shift key for Warrior 7 and then pick his route one-square-at-a-time, adding more and more squares to the "goto chain" of movements until he is 1 square away from Delhi. However, you should manually move him into Delhi, so that you don't forget to wake up Warrior 8 on that same turn, otherwise you'll lose the chance to move Warrior 8 to the north-west for one extra turn worth of movement than Warrior 7 could have gotten there.



IIRC, if the warriors both moved east, they would cover the entire NE desert. Worker 1 would cover west of warrior 6? (the western-most northern warrior), giving us 100% coverage of the west, north, NE and south. If a barb appeared out of the fog in the desert, both warriors could retreat back west. However, I don't think there is a barb out there yet, but there could be one next turn once the barb by Riverdale dies.



I suggest moving him manually. Keep him in our cultural borders as long as possible to save support costs. Only walk on forests or improved tiles. If worker 1 stays up by the stone until Stone City is founded, then I'm fine with sending him NE, but would prefer that he stay closer to Delhi as he heads north.

If you're going to chop now, then I would suggest switching to OR and Confucianism. This will give us 25% more hammers. Hammers are scarce in Riverdale, so we could use the bonus. If you're not ready to revolt until after Stone is settled, can worker 2 build another cottage instead?



Very nice use of the settler to fogbust. :goodjob: When safe to do so, keep as many units inside our borders to avoid unit supply cost.




I don't think we want to spread another religion to Delhi just yet. What will this gain us right away? It would allow us to build another temple, but we haven't built the Confucian temple yet.

I was thinking that we could use him to help fogbust the west.
While I agree that we can use the Christian Missionary to explore the east for spotting Zara's Settler ahead of time, he comes out a bit late, meaning that Worker 1 is dinking around for longer than he has to--instead, he could be building a Road on the Stone, for example. I'm not sure of the exact timing of when Warrior 8 can get to the north-west compared to how many turns Worker 1 would not have to spawn bust. I can't remember that detail, but if it's even 1 Worker turn, then that's one more Worker turn that we won't have to spend building a Road in the middle of nowhere.

For now, though, Worker 1 is probably best off finishing the Flood Plains square's Road where he is currently standing.


Later, once Stone City is up and you have completed your first Cottage there with 3 Workers, you might send 1 Worker to the Stone and the other two can do the following:
1. Move to the Flood Plains square where Worker 1 is currently standing and partially Cottage the Flood Plains square there (1S of Stone City)
2. Move 1NW Grassland 1SW Flood Plains and partially Cottage the Flood Plains square in the same turn as you moved 2 squares
3. Keep partially Cottaging this square
4. When it's almost time to go and Quarry the Stone, because Settler 5 will soon be complete (check out the exact timing with a test game, please, so that you'll know exactly on what turn to "go back"), you reverse the process: go 1NE Grassland, 1SE Flood Plains square, partial Cottage
5. Then move to the Quarry and help out


The keys will be: 3 Workers improve the first Cottage, then 2 Workers SHOULD be able to get in a few more turns' worth of Cottaging the other Flood Plains squares before having to help out with the Quarry. Then 1 to 2 Workers can continue with the Flood Plains squares.


THERE IS NO RUSH TO pre-Chop. I had plenty of extra Worker turns to do the pre-chopping later on.

In fact, I planned to pre-chop the GHFor Riv square E + E of Delhi exactly 6 turns BEFORE The Pyramids were due, so that we didn't have to waste turns moving onto and off of that Forest.


Similarly, Worker 2 will move onto the PHFor NE + E + E of Delhi 6 turns prior to when The Pyramids are due, so that we don't have to waste Worker turns moving onto and off of that square.

As a result, there are only 3 Forests that can be pre-chopped, and each of those squares already has some pre-chopping performed on them.


Far more important priorities, after completing the Delhi Cottage are:
1. Get a Road on the GHFor NE + N of Delhi, as well as on the GCornRiv 1N of Delhi
2. Get a Road going towards the NW, on the squares indicated in the actual saved game or as seen in my screenshot in my Thread Message # 1460. The image can be seen "big-sized" in my last spoiler tag in that Message.
3. Get 3 Workers (you may not have time to fully complete the GCornRiv Road for now) to the Flood Plains square for Stone City as soon as Stone City is built. 2 Workers must start immediately, but 1 Worker can start 1 turn later, if he's still Roading around the Corn area. "On his way" that Worker (who is probably Worker 4, according to my earlier suggestion, as I was sending Worker 3 NW to complete the Road to Stone City), can partially Chop the PFor 1N of the GCopper, just to get him a "free" Worker action along the way there. "Along the way back," any Worker moving along that Road, say, to complete the Road on the GCornRiv square, can also partially Chop on that same PFor, as long as the Forest won't be fully chopped by doing so, as you don't want to fully chop down that PFor 1N of the G Copper.



Before actually doing this, I suggest that it be tested to see if it actually does speed up the Pyramids or save the fifth forest. Whipping pops in Delhi is like killing our priests and scientists! ;) Plus, that axe will cost us 1 gold/turn and we don't really need him. Maybe if we do whip, it can be a temple instead...
I don't really see the need to whip pre-Pyramids, either. We will want to work Specialists ASAP. At most, we should whip 2 people into the Granary, but as I said, I only tested whipping 1 person, so you'll want to ensure that you test out this scenario before you do so.


Remember to do so in a test game. It's very important that you do. Why? Becuase the WHIP OVERFLOW MUST BE STONE-ENHANCED. So, you must plan in advance when you need to Quarry the Stone. You can best "plan things in advance" by trying them out in a test game first and then writing down what you did. There are no "take-backs" in the real game, but you can redo your actions a million times in the test game until you feel that you have the timing correct.


How much food is the food box in Riverdale right now? The ideal time to complete the granary is when the food box is half full on the turn it is completed (actually, half full after the whip since the amount of food required to grow will drop by 3F for each pop you whip). There's a bit more to it, but I don't have the ability to run a test game to provide the exact details. Doing it when the food box is half full is a good approximation, and it ensures that the granary will be full (i.e. food box will be half full) when we next grow.
In order to maximize the effects of the above fact, we will likely need to whip the Granary on the last turn possible for us to be able to whip it for 2 population points WHEN ORGANIZED RELIGION IS ENABLED, ALONG WITH CONFUCIANISM AND SLAVERY. But how will you know, because switching into Organized Religion plus Confucianism changes the timing of when you should whip?!?!? That's what the test game is for!

Test is out until you're happy with your timing and only then should you be playing things out.

If you find that the Food box is almost empty in order for you to whip for 2 population points, then we may just have to get The Pyramids on turn 135 with a 1 population whip into the Granary.

You shouldn't "speed up" The Pyramids if doing so requires you to whip more things than the Granary, as getting The Pyramids faster by 1 turn won't help us if we don't have the population points to immediately hire Republic-enhanced Specialists. Make sense? That 1 turn won't make a difference in completing The Pyramids--either an AI will have Stone or be Industrious or both and will beat us, or they won't beat us. That Turn 135 date is safe for "regular" Emperor-level AIs and getting The Pyramids any sooner due to extra whipping (beyond 1 to 2 population points into the Granary) will NOT help us out but WILL hurt us.
 
Sure. Just out of curiosity, why walk on forests and improved tiles? If there's no barbs in sight then it doesn't really matter does it? If we're shuffling the warriors 1E I may send him NW instead of NE because he'll probably have a road or two to speed him up that way.
Read my last message for why, when I talk about Forest growth. Forests are a renewable Resource if you walk your units in the correct spots and if you chop them down in a diagonal pattern, like we are trying to do.

It's up to the UP players to be smart about increasing our Forest growth chances by walking units in the correct squares.





Basically, the cost will be a few turns where that worker is hanging around riverdale rather than helping out with the pyramid chops. Riverdale is mostly going to be at 1 pop working the one cottage for the moment, so there's nothing much that needs doing.
From what I recall, there is tight timing between getting Flood Plains Cottage #1 up, getting a Stone Quarry up, and getting a second Flood Plains Cottage up before Stone City grows. You'll definitely need test games to maximize our potential gain of having 2 Cottages ready at the time that Stone City is at Size 2.

If you can get a 3rd one up by the time that The Pyramids are out (which means that you'll nicely set Unclethrill up to be able to do so), then you'll want a test game to help you work out the order of the Worker actions.

Basically, what you do with the Workers in your turnset affects not only your turnset but the tight timing of Unclethrill's turnset, so a bit of extra planning and time spent on your test games is worth it, as it can mean making his turnset's goals become possible instead of next-to-impossible.


I might just build a road for a few turns, then save the chop like you say. It will delay the granary by a turn though because the religion is waiting on stone city to pop borders, and I can't get the hammers from the chop and whip in the same turn.
I'm not a big fan of chopping into Delhi's Granary.
Whipping = 45 Hammers
Chopping = 30 Hammers
Chopping with Math = 44 Hammers

That's why we want to whip or chop after getting Math. Whipping now is like chopping later.

But we don't want to overwhip and we don't want to chop too soon.


I only suggested that we do so for Riverdale because we don't have extra population in Riverdale, but we need the Granary there.


So, I would prefer that we whip 1 to 2 people into Delhi's Granary (but only with Org Rel, Slavery, and Confucianism selected, so as to get the Org Religious bonus) and not chop any Forests there until after getting Math.

I would also strongly recommend that you only partially Chop the Forest 1W of Riverdale for a "free" Worker action, if you need such a Worker action, until after the point that you have completed Settler 5 AND you are ready to whip the Granary. Only at that point should you be switching into the right Civics and only then should we chop the Forest at Riverdale, in order to AT LEAST get the Orgnized Religion bonus.

The only reason why we want the Forest chopped in Riverdale is so that whipping in Riverdale will cost us 1 population point instead of 2 population points, as we won't be at Size 4 yet. Both the chop and the whip in Riverdale should be Organized-Religion-enhanced, which is why you would do us a disservice to chop the Forest before we're ready to use Organized Religion's bonus on it.



Ok, I'll leave the missionary alone for the moment then. We have no use for another fogbuster at that stage though, everything is busted anyway, so there's not that much else for it to do.
As I said, he can go to the east, to help Warrior 5 in scouting when Zara is going to send out a Settler.

Warrior 5 (the Warrior fortified in Riverdale) should only "scout" there if he won't cost us 1 Gold per Turn. If he will cost us that, then the max that you can move him is 1 square into Zara's lands onto a Road and then back again into our cultural borders on the same turn. If doing so won't reveal Zara's capitol, then don't bother (check with a test game to see if it will reveal his capitol or not), because you'd rather just keep the Fortification bonus for Warrior 5 if Warrior 5 can't reveal what Zara has built.

Our espionage might even reveal Zara's capitol, which would be great, as it would mean that we'd see the turn that his Settler is built (I am 95% certain that an AI's Settler will not move until the turn after the turn that it is built, so if you can spot his capitol, you can spot any Settler that Zara creates).


There's no need for 3 workers, as the stone is ready in time for the pyramids using just 2 workers. Moving a third up and back will just cost turns walking, which we will need instead for preparing the chops (especially if the riverdale worker is held up).
You do want 3 Workers there and that's to get up your 1st Flood Plains Cottage ASAP. Also, you'll probably need 3 Workers in order to get up your Stone and 2nd Flood Plains Cottage in time for Delhi whipping the Granary (the Stone's Quarry and Road should be complete on the next turn) and for the 2nd Flood Plains Cottage (which you should aim to have complete by the time that Stone City grows to Size 2).

As I have said many times before, use partial movement of Workers then partially performing an action and then cancelling the action immediately in order to move a Worker over a far distance.

After Worker 3 completes the GRiv Cottage 1S of Delhi, then Roads the GCopper and Roads the PFor 1N of the GCopper, Worker 4, who is building the Road on the GHFor to the NE + N of Delhi will later be able to move back to the GCornRiv for 1 turn to partially Road it, then be able to move onto the PFor 1N of the GCopper to partially Chop it. Optionally, and probably better, you can complete the Road on the GCornRiv, now that I adjusted the Worker turns in my turnset, which gave us 1 free Worker action of completing the Road on the GCornRiv, such that only 2 turns are required to complete it, you can move directly from the Roaded GCornRiv to the Flood Plains square 1SE of Stone City to begin Cottaging it. That one extra turn that I spent laying down that GCornRiv's Road might be just the 1 turn that you needed in order to get to the Flood Plains Cottage in time. But test it out, as I haven't yet done so.

Every little Worker improvement "gain" like this one that you can gain for Unclethrill, do you best to obtain, as it will help us out!



Good point. A temple with OR is almost identical to an axeman for the purposes of this plan, so I will make the switch (unless there's a barb wandering around that we need to deal with instead).
The only way that we'll get a Barb wandering around is if a Barb City spawns. The best chance to avoid that scenario would be to leave Warriors 3 and 6 where they are.

I also disagree with whipping a Temple pre-Pyramids (or an Axeman, but I hope that I've reasoned you through the reason why we won't need an Axeman anytime soon) (and we shouldn't need to whip either one even post-Pyramids). We can't afford the lost population points, as we'll need to run Specialists right after The Pyramids are complete. Growing, which is what you need to do after you whip, is not going to happen quickly enough when we need to run Specilists.


are you happy with the PPP to go ahead?
Not really, based on the comments that I feel I am still making (it feels like I am repeating a lot of things that I've written before). I think that you'll need at least a few test game run-throughs to get things optimized a bit better. That would be the best use of your time if that's all the playing time that you'll have. As I said, Unclethrill's turnset will be made a lot easier if you optimize the Worker actions. Mitchum's turnset will be made a lot easier if you plan things out so that you won't need to whip away extra population points.
 
105: Send warrior 7 towards the northeastern desert. I was going to just do a goto most of the way, but I can do it a turn at a time if people prefer
I have already commented on how to better use Warrior 7.


106: Worker 1 builds a road where he is standing.
107: Dehli switches to work the newly completed cottage
Good and good.


108: Research up to 100%.
I don't remember when I did so, so I'll trust that you've picked a good time to do so.


Worker 1 moves 1E and starts to partially chop
Do you mean 1W on the PForRiv?
That's why I usually not only give a direction but also describe what a square has... Plains, Grassland, Hills or no Hills, Forest or no Forest, etc. That way, if I mess up the direction, someone will spot the fact that there isn't the right square in the same direction and it will be easier to catch my typo.

What matters MOST is what you plan to do, so if you understand that 1E "means" 1W, that's fine--but if you feel that might confuse yourself, I'd rather point things out now than you feeling like you are "lost" during the middle of your turnset when your PPP doesn't seem to say the right hting.


(he has nothing better to do that still covers the fogbust square.
Which is why we want to get Warrior 8 up there (by way of moving Warrior 7 to Delhi and then "switching" our moving Warrior to Warrior 8, so as to give Worker 1 the chance to do something better ASAP.

Worker 4 roads the copper.
I don't care which Worker you use, but I'd written things as it being Worker 3 that does this task, so if you don't want to get confused by what I wrote, then use Worker 3 here.

Worker 3 moves NE and partial-chops for the sake of it.
I'd rather that you put a Road on the GHFor to the NE + N of Delhi. It takes your entire turn to move onto this square regardless of whether you are standing next to that square or if you are far form that square. Since you are currently "far" from that square by being 1S of Delhi, it's a great time to move onto that square for building a Road on it, right?


109: Worker 4 moves N and builds a road on the forest.
Good. If you want to stick with your own version of Workers 3 and 4, I'm fine with that, too, just be careful not to get confused in my previous comments about moving Workers 3 and 4. Whichever Worker went to the Copper is the one completing this Road. :)


110: Worker 4 moves NW and builds a road towards stone city.
Good.

Riverdale switches to work the newly built cottage.
Bad. Riverdale should already have been working the GRiver square on the turn that it grew to Size 2. Please go back and figure out which Riverdale grows to Size 2 and start working the GRiv square on that turn. We don't need the non-Organized-Religion-enhanced Hammers now, but we do need the Commerce.


111: Worker 2 moves to chop 1W of riverdale into the granary.
Good and bad. Just partially Chop for this turn (the 1W Forest should have 2 Forest chops remaining, so "use up" one of them). Then move 1SW onto the GRiv and build a Cottage. We don't want to complete the Forest chop until we have Organized Religion, Slavery, and Confucianism, and we don't want to switch into these until the turn that Settler 5 is complete and you begin work on the Granary.

Once the Cottage to the SW + W of Riverdale is complete, if you STILL have time before switching your Civics, then you can probably move 1N onto the Forest W + W of Riverdale and start partially Cottaging the Forest there, just to "kill time" until it's time to chop the Forest 1W of Riverdale.

Be sure to add in your PPP that the turn after you chop the 1W Forest into Riverdale (which may or may not happen in your turnset, actually), the Granary in Riverdale gets whipped.


Make absolutely sure worker 1 has stopped chopping.
If you can get Warrior 8 up there before then, great, Worker 1 could have stopped chopping before now. If not (it will probably take a bit longer to get Warrior 8 in place), then sure, what you said about stopping the chopping now should be fine.

112: Meditation->Math. Worker 1 helps worker 4 finish the road for stone city this turn. Settler moves to settling location, does the fogbusting role for this turn in the process.
Okay, that part sounds reasonable--someone will spawn-bust. As long as you're talking about Settler 4 being on the Flood Plains square 1W of the Stone, then we're able to properly spawn-bust using Settler 4.


Dehli starts another settler. From this point on, keep a close eye on Zara moving to the wheat city, as we can beat him to it by whipping the settler. Build a granary after this settler.
Things will be tight, but if at all possible, don't whip. Zara will take a while to move into position, because he will (I'm 95% certain) not move his Settler on the first turn that it is built, then he will move the Settler 1 to 2 squares per turn, to stay with his Archer(s). Only if he has Roads will it be 2 squares per turn--he doesn't seem to have many Roads to the NW just yet, so most of his moves will be 1 square per turn.

One good thing to do would be to: play until you see Zara's Settler and then stop play. Why take the risk? Just play some more test games by giving Zara a Settler at the same time, as well as give him any Roads that he is missing. If you don't know how to World-build in Roads, then World-build in a bunch of Gandhi's Workers on the same square that a Road should be, complete the Road on that turn, and then delete the extra Workers. See what Zara does in the test game from that point on.

Then, you'll know EXACLTY how many turns you'll have until Zara gets to LOCATION X. You won't know if Zara will settle at Location X or Location Y, but you'll know how soon he'll be able to get to a particular location. That info will take a lot of the "guessing as to whether or not we should whip" out of the equation, right?


113: Research to 0%. Fire the priest. Settle stone city (in the marble, stone, cows, coastal location). Lightbulb Theology, hopefully Christianity in stone city.
That all sounds good.


Spread christianity to the capital.
I'm with Mitchum in saying that we MIGHT be able to better leverage the Christian Missionary for exploration around Zara. You'll have to be the judge based on how much he costs us per turn. If it costs us 1 Gold per Turn just to keep him alive, and if we have an Espionage view of Zara's capitol, then be sure to stop the Missionary in Delhi so that he has FULL movement points when you try to spread him there, then sure, spread him. Don't spread him on a turn with partial movement, and the more turns that you can afford to "stand" him in Delhi, up to a max of 5 turns of 0 movement, the better your chances of a successful spreading.

It all depends upon whether we'll delay Math (a bad thing, not worth doing) by keeping him alive and whether we have Espionage to see what Zara's capitol builds.


Workers 1 and 4 build a floodplain cottage.
Sure, just be sure to get the other Worker there within 1 turn (8 turns to complete a Flood Plains Cottage = 3 turns + 3 turns + 2 turns of building a Cottage).


Worker 2 moves to the plains forest hill marked as a pyramid chop.
I think that I already gave you different suggestions. We'll move to that Forest ONLY at the last possible moment, in Unclethrill's turnset, so as to not waste Worker turns moving onto and off of Hilly-Forest squares that use up all 3 of our Workers' movement points.

114: The warrior should be arriving in the NE by now, if so shuffle all the warriors to the west and settle on on stone city while keeping everything fogbusted.
Again, this point is unnecessary. The north is already 100% spawn-busted without needing to move Warriors 3 and 6. Sorry for repeating myself, but I just want to make things clear.


Worker 2 prepares the plains forest hill for chopping.
Worker 2's actions should be different from what you wrote here.


115: Worker 3 starts preparing chops for pyramids.
Quite possibly you're doing so too soon. There should only be 3 Forests with 3 pre-chopping turns left on them each, which can PROBABLY all be done in Unclethrill's turnset.

You need to verify with a test game, though, that plays out to The Pyramids' time. Yes, you're helping to ensure that Unclethrill's Worker turns will be sufficient for his turnset. No, you don't have to write them all down, but yes, you do need to make sure that there will be enough such turns. I had extra Worker turns where I spacebarred the Workers for a couple of turns, so you SHOULD have enough, but that's only if you're working the Workers as efficiently as you can during your turnset, otherwise you might not get as much out of your Workers during your turnset as I was during my practice version of your turnset, meaning that you'll cut down on the amount of extra Worker turns that Unclethrill will have available to him.


Riverdale switches to a 2 hammer tile to get the required 45 hammers in the granary.
I strongly disagree. If you REALLY want to do something like this, it should happen BEFORE you have a Cottage to work. Don't switch away from an improved square. Our Organized-Religious pre-Math 1W Forest chop + an Organized-Religious whip for 1 population point will be better if we keep growing the City instead of working squares worth only 1 Food. Plus, the more Commerce that we collect, the sooner that we can get Math for Delhi's chopping.


116: Borders should have popped in stone city. Switch religeon from none to Confucianism. Switch civics to OR and slaver.
Sounds good. Now's the time to chop the Forest 1W of Riverdale.

Whip the granary in Riverdale.
Do so one turn later, after the Forest goes into Riverdale.


In the test game, this was the turn Zara's settler was spotted on the way to wheat.
Again, let's not leave things to a guessing game. When Zara's Settler appears, save the game and then load up the test game on the corresponding turn (maybe keep a saved game of each turn for your test game--you can first Name your Leadername something else so that the saved games don't "overlap" with the name Gandhi--you can do so in the top-right icon Main Menu--one of the last items in the list... something like Your Details... change the Leader's Name and then every time that you save the game, you'll have a saved game with that name listed in the saved game listing, instead of Gandhi's name). That way, with a saved game from every turn during your latest test game (feel free to pick a different Leadername for each test game run-through), you'll be able to just open the World Builder on the correct turn and give Zara a Settler at the right location on the correct turn, deleting his existing one (and giving him back any Archer(s) that you also deleted into his capitol).


117: Workers 1 and 4 build a quarry.
With 3 Workers there, the timing may be changeable. Also, with you whipping the Granary in Delhi at an optimized time, then the timing of starting on the Quarry might also need to change.


118-120: Nothing of note.
Really? If you ever find yourself feeling like nothing useful is going on, save your game and report your progress to our team's thread. Likely, someone will have a suggestion of what you can better do with your remaining turns.


Workers 2 and 3 prepare chops for the pyramids while 1 and 4 build the quarry. Continue to watch Zara and the wheat city. Dehli builds granary, grows, and works scientists as necessary, depending on when the settler is finished and settled.
We shouldn't need non-Representation Scientists in order to get Math. That's why we're working the Commercial Grassland River square in Riverdale.

Also, I thought that we didn't want many Great Scientist points for our 2nd Great Person anymore, because of your great idea to use Caste System for our 3rd Great Person, to give us the best chance of making it a Great Scientist, while taking an almost-for-certain Great Prophet (the idea Great Person) for our 2nd Great Person?!


One thing that's probably worth doing is to invest some hammers in an axeman on a turn when Dehli is growing and working scientists (hence <= 6 hammers anyway), in preparation for using the axeman whipping trick the turn before Math comes in (after math we need to be chopping).
IF and ONLY IF we weren't going to run Specialists in Delhi after completing The Pyramids, we could use this trick. But we ARE going to run Specialists in Delhi. We'll be doing so for a long time, too. Let's avoid this trick altogether, as the loss of those whipped people will cost us a LOT in the long run, since they won't be regrowing anytime soon.


I'm sorry that I don't have time to make my comments look pretty and nice. The content is what I felt was important. I'm out of time now. Hopefully, I've given you enough info to work out a solid PPP via test games when you next have time to play. Then, the following time that you have time to play can be spent on executing a well-matured PPP, instead of playing ahead now and thus risking making Unclethrill's turnset impossible to achieve our stated goals. Cool? :crazyeye: :cool:
 
Do not move Warriors 3 and 6
Use the Edit City button (the bottom left World Builder icon, I believe) to Edit the City and increase its culture until it had the same level that Zara's City had (probably somewhere under 750 Culture). Then, exit the World Builder. That way, you'll see the area that Zara's Cultural borders are fog-busting because they are now your cultural borders.

I just ran this test and there is 1 tile NE + NE of the oasis that is not spawn busted and is not covered by Zara's cultural borders. I have to say, I was surprised that the two tiles south of this one were covered because I thought the desert hill would block them.

In any event, there is 1 tile uncovered. If a barb spawns on our continent, it will likely happen as soon as the barb warrior dies near Riverdale.

Spoiler :
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Basically, the cost will be a few turns where that worker is hanging around riverdale rather than helping out with the pyramid chops. Riverdale is mostly going to be at 1 pop working the one cottage for the moment, so there's nothing much that needs doing. I might just build a road for a few turns, then save the chop like you say. It will delay the granary by a turn though because the religion is waiting on stone city to pop borders, and I can't get the hammers from the chop and whip in the same turn.

I saw Dhoomstriker post about this, but I think he was confusing the worker in Riverdale with the workers around Delhi. We are talking about worker 2 in Riverdale now. He needs to be sure that his chop goes into Riverdale's granary after we've converted to OR and Confucianism.

After the chop and whipping the granary, I think that when Riverdale is at 1 pop, the citizen should be working the grassland farm to grow back as quickly as possible, not the cottage. If doing this, Riverdale will quickly grow large enough to work the farm and two cottages, so I think keeping worker 2 around Riverdale is better. Three workers should be enough to handle flood plains cottages (2 or 3) and a quarry in Stone City and chopping the Pyramids. After cottaging, worker 2 could also start pre-chopping for the library in Riverdale.
 
Sorry guys for not contributing anything at this TS. I did have time to run any test game, and now there are too much info on the thread to really follow the discussion on bits and pieces of the TS. I will wait for the discussion on the next TS.

Just to make it clear, and say it again, I am still in favor of avoiding over-optimization (aka being too anal). Too boring to read long discussion on tidy-bity details...
 
I hate to do this for fear of information overload but since I'm up next I guess I really need to ask.

Can you explain the worker movement/free work idea? I see you talk about moving the worker and then stopping and getting a free turn of work from them. I may have missed the post that explained this concept so I'd welcome a through yet brief explanation so that I can optimize my TS.
 
Do not move Warriors 3 and 6

Moving east with our 2 northern Warriors is not only unnecessary, but it is preferred that you do not do so...

Why are three squares marked with signs "not covered" when two of them are indeed covered? In any case, Mitchum is right about the northernmost of those squares, it's not fogubusted. In my experience, if there's one square that a barb can spawn on then a barb will spawn. So at best it's a tradeoff between the chance of barbs and the chance of cities.

Unless this is a test-game real-game difference?

EDIT - Indeed it is. See my next post.

My plan had been:
Move Warrior 7 into Delhi. On the same turn, wake up Warrior 8 (gaining is one "free" movement with our Warrior spawn-buster) and send him towards the area that Worker 1 is now spawn-busting.

That's what I'm now going to do.

We SHOULD be able to get 2 Cottages down with 3 Workers at Stone City prior to needing to improve the Stone, since we're making another Settler, but at MINIMUM, we should get 3 Workers building a Cottage as soon as Stone City is settled. One Worker can arrive 1 turn later, by perhaps partially Chopping the PFor 1N of the GCopper for one turn. Yes, we want to save that PFor and not chop it completely, but eventually we may chop it, so it's better to gain that free Worker turn now than to spend all of the Worker's turn on moving, when he could instead both move and perform an action within the same turn.

I'll look into getting the third worker up there.

I would recommend using the Christian Missionary to spot-check whether Zara's got a Settler coming. If you've built the Roads properly, you'll be able to settle 3 turns after you whip. That should be enough time to get over there. If not, then you can use the Warrior 5, to pop out of and back into Riverdale every couple of turns, to see what you can see of Zara's capitol.

Our culture from riverdale means we can already actually see the settler coming in time. In the test game at least anyway. I can send the missionary over there just in case he follows a different, sneakier path though.

Be careful when moving extra units outside of our borders not to incur a Supply Cost of 1 Gold per Turn or more--there shouldn't ever be a need to do so on your turnset, but if it happens, be prepared to move back without our cultural borders the next turn (a test game where you watch our Gold per Turn gain or loss at the top left of the screen every time that you move a unit out of our borders would tell you ahead of time, so that you won't put yourself in a Gold-losing situation in the real game.

I'll keep an eye out for this in the test games.

Remember, if a Worker has a long way to travel, count his movement points. Try to perform an action along the way, but be sure to stop the Worker's action immediately, so that it doesn't accidentally complete instead of allowing you to keep moving the Worker to where you want him to go.

If you don't understand this concept, then perhaps you'd better get this concept fully understood before you play the turnset. I'd rather that we delay your turnset by a few days, if that's all the time that you have, if it means that you'll understand better how to fully leverage our Workers.

I was fully aware of this concept before we even started this game, and none of the moves I've given have wasted any worker turns.

...If you walk in those squares, you disrupt the chances of a Forest growing (think of it like mowing the lawn when new seedlings are growing--if you don't mow, you might get trees growing and thus you might get a new Forest).

Ok, I was unaware that having a unit on a square prevented forest regrowth. That answers that question then.

Very nice use of the settler to fogbust. :goodjob: When safe to do so, keep as many units inside our borders to avoid unit supply cost.

It wasn't that clever, the settler was going to be there anyway, I just observed that it was covering the key square when it did. Actually the new plan has the warrior arriving there first anyway.

(skipped a bunch of stuff that I'm already planning to do)

1. Get a Road on the GHFor NE + N of Delhi, as well as on the GCornRiv 1N of Delhi

I was planning to road NE and NE+NE of Dehli instead. This gets the settler to the wheat in the same number of turns, and is more useful for later connecting to Riverdale. If there's some important reason to put the road N then N+NE then I can't see it.

Ok, actually in your other post I see the reason, it's that it's a good time to move to that square. In my current plan I don't waste any turns either though, and get a slightly more useful road in the process.

I don't really see the need to whip pre-Pyramids, either. We will want to work Specialists ASAP. At most, we should whip 2 people into the Granary, but as I said, I only tested whipping 1 person, so you'll want to ensure that you test out this scenario before you do so.

I never talked about whipping pre-pyramids, other than to get the settler out in time to not lose the wheat spot. If that happens, we then fall behind a bit on the pyramids building because the upkeep slows down Math, requiring me to run scientists and therefore produce less in Dehli. In that case, the axeman/temple whip trick, performed just before Math comes in, is needed to help to catch some of that up.

My current plan is to pause the turn set as soon as I see Zara's settler, and we can re-optimise the pyramids from there.

You talk about whipping a granary in Dehli, but the only granary I have talked about whipping is in riverdale, so things are somewhat confused there.

Do you mean 1W on the PForRiv?
That's why I usually not only give a direction but also describe what a square has... Plains, Grassland, Hills or no Hills, Forest or no Forest, etc. That way, if I mess up the direction, someone will spot the fact that there isn't the right square in the same direction and it will be easier to catch my typo.

Sorry, yes, 1W. It's the only forest in the area

Bad. Riverdale should already have been working the GRiver square on the turn that it grew to Size 2.

Ok. With the change to delay the chop until OR that works out fine. I'm used to food > hammer > commerce on a 1-for-1 basis, but that isn't the case here when we're so tight for commerce.

Good and bad. Just partially Chop for this turn (the 1W Forest should have 2 Forest chops remaining, so "use up" one of them). Then move 1SW onto the GRiv and build a Cottage. We don't want to complete the Forest chop until we have Organized Religion, Slavery, and Confucianism, and we don't want to switch into these until the turn that Settler 5 is complete and you begin work on the Granary.

Once the Cottage to the SW + W of Riverdale is complete, if you STILL have time before switching your Civics, then you can probably move 1N onto the Forest W + W of Riverdale and start partially Cottaging the Forest there, just to "kill time" until it's time to chop the Forest 1W of Riverdale.

Be sure to add in your PPP that the turn after you chop the 1W Forest into Riverdale (which may or may not happen in your turnset, actually), the Granary in Riverdale gets whipped.

This is all basically what I was going to do, now that I'm waiting for the forest chop. I'd considered building a road as riverdale won't work the second cottage for a long time anyway and it holds the worker up for another 3 turns, but I'll leave it as a cottage.


Things will be tight, but if at all possible, don't whip. Zara will take a while to move into position, because he will (I'm 95% certain) not move his Settler on the first turn that it is built, then he will move the Settler 1 to 2 squares per turn, to stay with his Archer(s). Only if he has Roads will it be 2 squares per turn--he doesn't seem to have many Roads to the NW just yet, so most of his moves will be 1 square per turn.

One good thing to do would be to: play until you see Zara's Settler and then stop play. Why take the risk? Just play some more test games by giving Zara a Settler at the same time, as well as give him any Roads that he is missing. If you don't know how to World-build in Roads, then World-build in a bunch of Gandhi's Workers on the same square that a Road should be, complete the Road on that turn, and then delete the extra Workers. See what Zara does in the test game from that point on.

Then, you'll know EXACLTY how many turns you'll have until Zara gets to LOCATION X. You won't know if Zara will settle at Location X or Location Y, but you'll know how soon he'll be able to get to a particular location. That info will take a lot of the "guessing as to whether or not we should whip" out of the equation, right?

This is all exactly what I currently plan to do.

For what it's worth, in the test game, I needed to whip as soon as I saw the settler to get there just barely in time (partly because Zara settles 1E of where we do, and partly because I don't see the settler when it's built but when it's on Zara's culture boundary).

Really? If you ever find yourself feeling like nothing useful is going on, save your game and report your progress to our team's thread. Likely, someone will have a suggestion of what you can better do with your remaining turns.

By nothing of note, I mean all actions were either already ordered or following what I'd described earlier. I don't mean the whole empire was sitting there swiddling its thumbs.

We shouldn't need non-Representation Scientists in order to get Math. That's why we're working the Commercial Grassland River square in Riverdale.

If we have to settle wheat early, then we most certainly do if we want to get the pyramids by turn 135. How delayed they might be if we don't I haven't caculated, but it easily has the potential to be more than just a couple of turns. We can talk more about this when I pause the game after seeing Zara's settler.


I'll give an updated PPP in the next post.
 
Why are three squares marked with signs "not covered" when two of them are indeed covered? In any case, Mitchum is right about the northernmost of those squares, it's not fogubusted. In my experience, if there's one square that a barb can spawn on then a barb will spawn. So at best it's a tradeoff between the chance of barbs and the chance of cities.

Unless this is a test-game real-game difference?

I checked the screenshots, and it's indeed a test-game real-game difference. The warriors don't need to move. Let's move on.
 
I hate to do this for fear of information overload but since I'm up next I guess I really need to ask.

Can you explain the worker movement/free work idea? I see you talk about moving the worker and then stopping and getting a free turn of work from them. I may have missed the post that explained this concept so I'd welcome a through yet brief explanation so that I can optimize my TS.

Let's see if I can give you the Cliff's Notes version before you get the novel from Dhoomstriker. :D

Let's assume that we have normal workers (i.e. we're not India). Let's also assume that you have a corn square that is two squares from your capital. On the turn your worker is completed, he can move to the corn tile on T0 and start farming the corn T1.

Or, on T0 you can move 1 tile, build a partial road on a tile between your capital and the corn and then stop your worker's action. Then on T1 you can move 1 tile to the corn and start farming the corn on T1, just like the example above. Except this time, you've also built a partial road for "free".

With fast workers, there are MANY more options for what can be done since you have three movement points. You can move two squares and perform an action. You can move to a forest and either do a partial road or partial chop (be sure to stop your worker if you don't want to complete the action). So, you should be able to perform some kind of worker action on just about every turn (e.g. pre-chop, partial road, partial cottage, etc.).
 
I was planning to road NE and NE+NE of Dehli instead. This gets the settler to the wheat in the same number of turns, and is more useful for later connecting to Riverdale. If there's some important reason to put the road N then N+NE then I can't see it.

Ok, actually in your other post I see the reason, it's that it's a good time to move to that square. In my current plan I don't waste any turns either though, and get a slightly more useful road in the process.

Having a road on a square prevents forest re-growth. So having a road on the Grassland river hill tile NE + NE would prevent a forest from growing on that tile.

You talk about whipping a granary in Dehli, but the only granary I have talked about whipping is in riverdale, so things are somewhat confused there.

Whipping a granary allows Delhi to grow quicker after the Pyramids are built. If you try to build the granary the slow way, it will delay the Pyramids. If you chop into the granary, it will waste a forest.


This is all basically what I was going to do, now that I'm waiting for the forest chop. I'd considered building a road as riverdale won't work the second cottage for a long time anyway and it holds the worker up for another 3 turns, but I'll leave it as a cottage.

Roads between Riverdale and Delhi are a really low priority since our cities are already connected. An extra cottage in Riverdale will be worked fairly soon, especially if you always work the farm. Once we gain the 4F cow tile, we'll grow even faster.


If we have to settle wheat early, then we most certainly do if we want to get the pyramids by turn 135. How delayed they might be if we don't I haven't caculated, but it easily has the potential to be more than just a couple of turns. We can talk more about this when I pause the game after seeing Zara's settler.

In Dhoomstriker's game, he settled wheat city fairly early (it was already at 2 pops on T135) and hestill managed to finish the Pyramids on T135. I don't know exactly how he did it, but it's possible....
 
Changes from previous version
* Wait for OR to chop riverdale granary.
* Move warrior 7 NW (switching with warrior 8) to help fogbust sooner.
* Shuffled workers around to get the road for wheat-settler built sooner and get 3 settlers to stone city for building cottages there.

105: Warrior 7 move NW to Dehli.
106: Worker 1 builds a road where he is.
107: Dehli switches to work the new cottage (from plains hill mine)
108: Worker 4 road copper. Worker 1 move 1W and chop for a few turns. Worker 3 NE and chop 1 turn. Research 100%. Warrior 7 arrives in Dehli, move warrior 8 out towards stone city. Switch Riverdale's new second citizen to a plains river square.
109: Worker 3 move N and build road for 1 turn (1NE of Dehli). Worker 4 move 2E to same square and build road. Worker 1 stop chopping.
110: Warrior 8 is now fogbusting. Other warriors can soon start to spread out away from it to get visibility of more squares. Worker 1 moves and builds a road for stone city (1S of the stone itself). Make sure Riverdale is working the cottage. Worker 4 moves NE and builds a road on the grass hill.
111: Worker 2 SE and part-chop forest 1W of riverdale for 1 turn. Worker 4 NE and pChop plains forest 1 turn.
112: Worker 4 E to finish a road over the plains forest for the settler. Move settler towards stone spot, stopping within culture borders to reduce costs. Worker 2 SW to build another riverdale cottage. Switch research to Math, and build to another settler. From this turn on, watch for Zara's settler heading to wheat city, and pause the turnset if it is seen.
113: Settle stone city, build a granary there. Bulb Theology. Move Christian missionary to explore. Fire the priest in Dehli. Research to 0%. Workers 1 and 3 start building a floodplains cottage 1W of stone for stone city. Worker 4 head towards stone city, stopping to part-chop the roaded plains forest for a turn.
114: Worker 4 helps with the stone city cottage.
115: Cancel worker 2's cottage build action at end of turn.
116: Stone city workers move to build a cottage on the other floodplains 1W of where they are. Switch religion to Confucianism. Switch civics to Slavery and Organised Religion. Worker 2 takes a detour from cottage building to finish the chop for the granary.
117: Riverdale whips granary. Worker 2 back to finishing cottage.
118: Move 1 worker to stone, start quarry.
119: Move other workers to stone to help with quarry. Worker 2 moves to plains forest hill near Dehli (but outside Dehli's BFC), the one marked for Pyramid chopping.
120: Worker 2 starts chopping.
 
Having a road on a square prevents forest re-growth. So having a road on the Grassland river hill tile NE + NE would prevent a forest from growing on that tile.

Ok, that makes a bit more sense, I'll swap the road builds around then. Never knew that either, it seems odd because you can road a forest once it's there.

There's an equivalent set of moves I can do to what's written that will build the road on the other two squares.

Whipping a granary allows Delhi to grow quicker after the Pyramids are built. If you try to build the granary the slow way, it will delay the Pyramids. If you chop into the granary, it will waste a forest.

Ok, that makes sense at least. It's outside my turnset anyway, or at least after I pause seeing the Ethiopian settler, but it may help. The tests I did so far I had so much overflow from the whipped settler that it wasn't worth whipping the granary.

In Dhoomstriker's game, he settled wheat city fairly early (it was already at 2 pops on T135) and hestill managed to finish the Pyramids on T135. I don't know exactly how he did it, but it's possible....

As did I. It will be population 2 by then if it isn't whipped. Either way the pyramids can be built by 135, it just means working scientists to make up for the lost gold. The hammers lost to scientists are made up for by the extra hammers from whipping the settler. It comes out about the same, it just takes different moves to get there.
 
As did I. It will be population 2 by then if it isn't whipped. Either way the pyramids can be built by 135, it just means working scientists to make up for the lost gold. The hammers lost to scientists are made up for by the extra hammers from whipping the settler. It comes out about the same, it just takes different moves to get there.

Hmmm... I thought we were going to try for a GPro as our second great person to buld CS and then use Caste System to run extra scientists for a third great person having better odds to be a Great Scientist. If you run scientists now, our second GP could be a GS...
 
Changes from previous version
* Wait for OR to chop riverdale granary.
* Move warrior 7 NW (switching with warrior 8) to help fogbust sooner.
* Shuffled workers around to get the road for wheat-settler built sooner and get 3 settlers to stone city for building cottages there.

Sounds good.

108: Switch Riverdale's new second citizen to a plains river square.

Why work a plains tile and not a grassland river tile? We need the growth more than the hammer.

119: Move other workers to stone to help with quarry. Worker 2 moves to plains forest hill near Dehli (but outside Dehli's BFC), the one marked for Pyramid chopping.
120: Worker 2 starts chopping.

Dhoomstriker suggested having a worker go to this tile 6 turns before we want the chop to be completed. That way, the worker won't have to waste a turn to climb the forested hill now to pre-chop and again in 15 turns to complete the chop. I guess this isn't a huge deal since Dhoomstriker said that he had several extra worker turns when he played.
 
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