SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

Lothercastle, I do not see any reason to answer, as it is all just general statements.
For example, after workers finish current improves we will use all capital population on working improved ties and untill GH build there would be no spare population/happiness to work more ties.

Trades.. yes you loose 5 turns, but how often you plan to trade? That is very mach abstact complain, at worst we loose pacifism bonus for 5 turns.

Buddism? How it is connected to this turn set when only one of our cities has buddism and has population of 2?

Talk to me when buddist city can actually produce missionaries, situation hopefully will be clearer.

Sorry, but I am tied to deal with this s h i t.. I am very good micromanager and getting pacifism faster, use whip to get basic infrastructure in 6 cities faster will actually speed up oxward, not slow it down.

A few notes:
We should sell Zara Alphabet for Hunt+cash or just cash in a few.
Our resource deal with Toku is a bit silly. The clam deal expires in 1t, so I think we can cancel everything and sell fish for 3gpt.
Toku has ivory! Maybe this means that the 3 resources other than fur are not monopolies?

babybluepants said:

Toku has ivory! Maybe this means that the 3 resources other than fur are not monopolies?

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Damn that guy, he's probably going to try and outdo our Eldine-welcoming party with one of his own

Mutineer said:

Lothercastle, I do not see any reason to answer, as it is all just general statements.
For example, after workers finish current improves we will use all capital population on working improved ties and untill GH build there would be no spare population/happiness to work more ties.

Trades.. yes you loose 5 turns, but how often you plan to trade? That is very mach abstact complain, at worst we loose pacifism bonus for 5 turns.

Buddism? How it is connected to this turn set when only one of our cities has buddism and has population of 2?

Talk to me when buddist city can actually produce missionaries, situation hopefully will be clearer.

Sorry, but I am tied to deal with this s h i t.. I am very good micromanager and getting pacifism faster, use whip to get basic infrastructure in 6 cities faster will actually speed up oxward, not slow it down.

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For starters, Mutineer, you're out of line. Your anger does not belong anywhere in the Civfanatics Community. So how about you just calm down and realize that I'm 1) not giving you s*** and 2) not giving you abstractions. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt since English is not your native language and you're trying your hardest to communicate in my native language and I respect that.

No one ever doubted your MM or other abilities. I asked for your thinking. You gave it. I asked some more questions, you freak out. What's up with that? This is a team game. A team has individuals. The individuals share thoughts and ask questions. Why are you freaking out? That's not an abstract question. I'm asking for a concrete answer: Why are you freaking out? Let's get it out in the open and get it over with.

You accused me of not reading your post carefully. I proved to you that I read it carefully. Then you freak out. Stop it. Calm down.

One more thing, Mutineer: YOu have repeatedly made insinuations about the rest of us not listening to you. The truth is, most of what we've done this entire game so far is what you wanted. You wanted to settle the stone city there. Others had other thoughts, such as Two Fish first or the river grass between us and Zara. The team did what you wanted.

You wanted to get the CS slingshot as fast as possible, thus neglecting some growth that came with getting it a little slower. The team agreed to do it your way. The team even let you play a long turnset to do it.

Then you wanted to get the Pyramids as fast as possible, even though mdy and others made tests showing that they weren't likely to be needed so fast. The team basically tried to get them as fast as possible from that discussion point.

About the only thing that didn't go your way was settling the Dyes.

So why don't you cut out that nonsense too. We are a team. We pay attention to everyone. No one pays less attention to you than anyone else.

LowtherCastle said:

I consider it seriously debateable whether we need to delay the hunting happiness or invest hammers in many more warriors right now.

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I agree. We need Hunting asap.

LowtherCastle said:

Poprushing Two Fish slows down our Educ GS. This potentially slows down our Oxford build. Hence, my conclusion that you are not trying to build Oxford asap.

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I think this is debatable at best. Previous testing seemed to be faster on research than production capacity to me. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just not quite clear to me how we're supposed to get library/lh done there pre-uni. We'll also need NE eventually. I find it hard to believe that we're better off long-term without essential infra like lh.

What's the most current test file, btw? Is it still 875 BC, or did you update it since?

LowtherCastle said:

In your plan, these two workers will chop instead of cottage. That is NOT spamming and working cottages in Delhi asap. Hence my conclusion that you are not spamming and working cottages in Delhi asap.

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Thought the consensus was to cottage everything, but faster HG means faster forge means faster GE, which may work out well (not really sure what our target date for the GE pop is at this point - be nice to know that). Also does potentially lead to more whip power for the upcoming civic switch. We are short worker turns though, so cottaging is probably better - HG isn't really in too much danger.

babybluepants said:

I think this is debatable at best. Previous testing seemed to be faster on research than production capacity to me. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just not quite clear to me how we're supposed to get library/lh done there pre-uni. We'll also need NE eventually. I find it hard to believe that we're better off long-term without essential infra like lh.

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mdy had all 6 libs more or less done in time for Educ. What he didn't have was the Philo GS. I fine-tuned his ideas and got both GSes. Both saves are posted.

Here's the key, bbp: 2popping the lh costs us about 60f. That means the next GS is delayed as many turns as it takes to get back those 60f. It added up to quite a delay on the GSes. I don't remember exactly how much. As long as we're running max sci in Two Fish, we're only losing 2fpt without the lh (13fpt/15fpt=86.7%). So before my turnset, it boiled down to four possibilities:

1) lh immediately
2) lh immediately after Philo GS
3) lh immediately after Educ GS
4) lh immediately after uni

Building/poprushing the uni, when needed for Oxford was/is not an issue in Two Fish. Since we're happiness limited, not having the lh is no biggie. Later, if we want to grow fast and work the two lakes, we definitely want the lh.

Ok. My concern is with Bombay in your test, especially now that we're building an extra settler there.

Did you run a 5t Slavery kick then? I kinda assumed not, and there seems to be a bit of a consensus on that now. What would we do in Two Fish during those 5t unless we whip something? We don't even have a library there. The only thing that comes to mind is putting the excess food to use on another worker build.

We need 67 scientist-turns for the Educ GS (under Pacifism), and we have 24t from now to your 110 BC test date. If we do the Philo GS in 7t, run Slavery for 5t, we have 12t left - which is 5.5 scientists / turn. Off the top of my head, I figure if we insta-whip a library, we can slowly regrow in 10t (whip anger), while running 3-4 specs and completing LH, which should be enough. No time now to calculate exactly...

This is somewhat irrelevant without the Slavery kick, ofc.

Mutineer said:

With current rate we will get GS in 10 turns, if we hire one more scientist, 8 turns,
If we run all population as scientists for one turn that amount reduced down to 7.

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babybluepants said:

Two Fish needs another 234 gpp for this GS:
234 gpp = 39 scientist-turns = 7t (4t x 6 + 3t x 5) - lose 12f
234 gpp = 39 scientist-turns = 6t (3t x 7 + 3t x 6) - lose 33f
I think 7t is fine.

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You actually lose more food than you show, because you're not including the food lost by not working the cows, then cows + fish. You also don't mention the lost hammers into the library. Assuming we're still running Conf/OR, it should be:

7t -- lose 31f 28h
6t -- lose 58f 24h

Btw, if we trade for hunting, then Two Fish grows to pop9 and we just keep hiring sci, then we get the GS in 8t by only hiring 1 extra sci on the 7th turn.

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Mutineer's plan also doesn't mention the extra unhappiness caused by the poprushing, because in his plan, as I understand it, we'll end up poprushing lib, lh, and uni. Otherwise, we could only poprush lib and uni.

Begging mechanics for non-vassal deals:

Maximum amount that is accepted is

(TURNS_KNOWN + 50) * 2 * (OUR_POWER / THEIR_POWER), further multiplied by 3 if that AI is our land target.

Note that this remembers earlier gifts granted, so if this formula gives a value of 1000, and we already have begged 700 during the game, the max gift value granted is only 300. Again, the value of gold is GOLD*2, or GOLD*3 if the AI is in financial trouble. Beakers are approx BEAKERS*1.5.

Also it's very important to note that the beg is refused outright if they haven't forgot all the former begs (successful and unsuccessful). AIs have a 5% chance of forgetting one beg each turn. So, the optimal begging rotation regarding this is a somewhat complicated optimization problem. Once upon a time I did simulations to find out the best beg interval regarding just this forgetting mechanic, results are here.


Surprisingly, demands (for Civs below Pleased) work exactly the same, except they're refused outright if their power is more than 1.33x ours. And of course they give a diplo penalty.

babybluepants said:

Ok. My concern is with Bombay in your test, especially now that we're building an extra settler there.

Did you run a 5t Slavery kick then? I kinda assumed not, and there seems to be a bit of a consensus on that now. What would we do in Two Fish during those 5t unless we whip something? We don't even have a library there. The only thing that comes to mind is putting the excess food to use on another worker build.

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Right. I have no problem with the 5t slavery either. In fact, after my test, I suggested that we time that with the completion of the Philo GS. I didn't test that, but my idea was to actually run the slavery before the GS finished so that we switch into Pacifism immediately, but I'm not convinced that's workable. Anyway...

You make a good point. Clearly the library needs to be poprushed so we can work at least 2 sci. Looking at the save, if we're going to be running Conf/Org when we poprush, the library can't have more than 78h in it or it will be a 1pop. That means, we should switch the build to the lh this or next turn. (Of course, if we stop working the cows, it doesn't matter... )

My take: Better to go for the GS in 8t, switch to lh now, trade for hunting, keep growing Two Fish, 2pop the library and finish the lh by hand.

Trading for maps

We do not need NSR for map trading. Toku will never trade them. Izzy will only at Friendly. So those two are out of hte picture right now.

Sal will trade maps at Pleased, which we could get to with NSR, but we can explore his land anyway, plus Justy probably already has, so getting Justy's maps will most likely tell us about Sal's land (and Toku's for that matter).

Justy, Mehmed, and Zara will all trade at cautious. Unless Justy adopts some religion, we can be in Conf and trade maps with Justy and Zara. To be able to trade Mehmed's maps, we need to have +1 in trade relations, which we hopefully could get selling him Poly for gold and writing too if necessary.

This all means that we want to have OR/Conf for our poprushing cycle for the extra 25% hammers on the poprush.

Wines and Gems from Toku

Imo, this is high priority. Here's how we can do it, if he still has them on T147. On T147, we'll get +1 OBs with Toku. Then we only need NSR and +3 trade relations to get back up to Pleased. We're at +3 trade relations now, but that may fall. If so, I'd go ahead and sell him Math for whatever gold he's got. Hopefully, that would get us to +3 trade relations.

Then we trade him clams for gems, fish for wines (or vice versa ).

So...to make sure we have OR/COnf for the poprushing cycle, I would recommend switching to NSR 5 turns before we get the Philo GS and bulb Philo (now, next turn or whatever, depending on how you decide to do Two Fish, Mutineer).

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One other note: I would cottage rather than farm the fp at RIce (need to cancel the action now).

I believe teams agree on farming rice, there was discussion before with many people vote for farming floodplains, with which I agree. Actually existing cottage annoy me to no end.

with representation and need of production we do not need cottages anywhere but in capital.

About map trade, I believe we decided that we need maps in order to decide our strategy.

How you envision manual exploration? No we need to collect as many maps as possible. So, we have trading cycle after we got paper.
I actually intend to time no religion separately from slavery switch, this shorten time of pacifism
/castle loss down to 3 turns.

Turn 1 GS pop, Bulb philosophy, switch research to paper, Order Whip in every city I intend to whip. Turn 2 still need religion for overflow going to buildings. But finished paper.
Turn 3 switch to no state.
Turn 4 do trades
Turn 5 switch to castle/pacifism
turn 8 switch back to conf.

I intend to whip one one's, (One whip cycle) and in 2 fish I intend to whip Light house, not library.
Library will naturally finish in a few turns from whip overflow of light house.

So, I need to time chops in HG when we still have religion and in org religion.

Food lost calculated was how mach city food lost, not how mach production of food lost. well, they exchanged for faster GS and single whip give as booth, light house and library.

What we want to start building there next? Temple for more happiness cheaply or Market?

Light house will give lakes 3 food and 2 fish additional food, increasing food supply of city by 4.
That is 2 more max specialists city will be able to run. 1 straight away and 1 more if we have 2 pop for working lakes. So, it become matter of happiness.

Hopefully with trades and resources we can get Gems, Gold, Our silver, Our Ivory.
But there other limitation, health. This city currently has only 1 health reserve. In addition, what we have to trade for thinks we need?
We get +1 from HG! But ideally we need to grow 2 fish by 6 from current population. By 3 as minimum(If we still not using lakes.)
We can cover happiness form trade, whip anger will disappear in 15 turns.

WE need to start to connect our improved resources, so trade and internal health.

My plan does not demand additional happiness until end of whipping cycle, so I do not see need to harry. We can trade tech and map and resources at that time.

Now now guys, let's try to keep this nice if possible. I don't want this becoming a repeat of SGOTM 9 when our team pretty much imploded after a good start.

As for the game itself, I am not in too big of a hurry to pick up buddhism yet. I would like to take advantage of OR in the capital for HG before we swap into Buddhism. Perhaps we should reconsider the build order of ivory to include a buddhist missionary that we can send to Delhi? It will also open up an additional monastery which is good.

For chopping vs. cottaging in Delhi, I'd prefer to cottage right now. I think it's quite unlikely that we'll lose the hanging gardens, as the AI on this map are not very fast.

As for warriors vs. hunting, I thought our warrior count was around 5 right now? I'd like another 2 warriors or so before we tech hunting, as otherwise we will only be able to build warriors in Bombay (after disconnecting its roads).

I agree with LC that it's better to put 2fish on lighthouse now so that we can maintain the GS accumulation. I am more concerned about losing Taoism than Hanging Gardens right now.

shyuhe said:

As for warriors vs. hunting, I thought our warrior count was around 5 right now? I'd like another 2 warriors or so before we tech hunting

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We currently have 7 warriors, as LC mentioned. One more pop in Two Fish helps us complete both builds asap without delaying the upcoming GS, so I like immediate Hunting. If we do trade for Hunting right away, we can complete both lib and lh within 2t of switching to Slavery. I prefer library first, but it seems almost irrelevant.

Ok, if we have 7, I'm fine getting hunting.

Ok Points I agree.

I agree to trade for hunting and grow 2 fish 1 size before speeding up GS.

I still believe build a few more warriors is better, but not so mach to argue about.

I disagree about trying for Dyes now. Problem is we do not have strong defender there, current warrior is not enough, we will risk to loose city to barbarians or get killed.
We need chariot escort for settler and I do not see how we can get one.

I would rather settle Gold risk free and guaranty one happy resource this way and get one more sea resource.

Currently we have gold, but we traded silver for it, which deny the purpose, except getting + for resource supply.

We can send the axe on the west coast over to the dye site to escort the settler. I'm not sure if he'll make it in time going across the continent though.

If we trade for hunting, 2fish can grow 2 more pop (since there's some whip anger that will wear off soon).

Axe not only need to get across, but rich settling site to follow 2 moves settler.... Not real.

We simply not set up for dyes now. Lets go with safe Gold and look for dyes opportunity late.

All this jungle and space other space for AI to expand, it might still be here.