SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

@dingding
Could work, but I think it makes a lot of moving troops around to cap 2 AIs on 2 different landmasses (granted we have ~100 turns to do this). It's also no guarantee to get Toku's vote this way.

We've +1 move for all the navies. +Calvaries, I don't see a problem to conquest these two AI during 100turn esp on Emp+Epic.

If we get 5 players' votes, I don't care about Toku's choice.

Or there is another choice: leave Izzy. We go for Toku+Justine. Get votes from Zara+Toku+Justine+Saladin. That'd be easier.

When can we expect to see the plan for next 14 turns? :D

Will work on it today. You know I had 8 hours of exams yesterday:p
 
@ Duckweed + kossin:

About conquering Zara:

It's also workable. Then the war plan will be Zara=>Toku. Try to get Saladin+Justine's votes with civic bonus.

I don't worry about trade road loss. In fact, I suppose we would play a cuirassier rush so we'll finish the war within a few turns. Moreover, we would probably have had Astro by the time.

If you mean a Medieval warfare, koss, I strongly doubt when it can play back the cost of production, commerce and time. Zara's land's good, but not enough to make me launch a Medieval war to him.
 
Good going here!

Initially I thought the same as kossin (Take out Sal+Toku, get votes from just+zy+izzy leaving meh to himself).

However the more I think about it, I think I aggree with duckweed. DOW justinian or toku later if needed (assuming izzy comes in with ZY).

@dingding+kossin:
Takes forever to get that galley over to the barb island. I think it's probably just as well to wait for better ships, and maybe send a spy (or whatever else) over there later on our way to explore the northern parts of the map.

about fur:
Seems strange that we wouldn't have to explore the north-west at all. The only logical (to me) reason to have fur on the barb island we've found is that it makes it easier on the cultural attempts (but why is that necessary?). That does not mean there's nothing interesting NW, though (maybe an island/islands with the resources we need, or something else good, although with the setup we have I don't really know what that could be).
 
We can DoW Zara but it would be for 1-2 cities max.
We need him alive at the end of the game !! If he doesn't bribe anyone into the war... maybe that's not worth it.

I think that Saladin and Toku have the best land --> I'd rather expand to the west.
Another argument for this is : it will take a long time for Mehmed to improve his land, whereas the land to the west will be improved very fast (better base terrain + better improvements).

Vassalizing Toku, especially, would tempt me. We can benefit a great deal from 2-3 of his coastal cities and then he won't make demands to join his war, to close borders, etc.

I need to give some thought to the bigger picture (UN votes), though :)


@Kossin : yes, the OSS have had a bad event coming. Maybe they lost some intercontinental cities... dunno...
 
@BIC
You might know that the colony fee becomes very steep after 3 cities. Plus the distance, any city from Toku is a burden but not a gain. While we can get 2 cities from Zara and 2 from Izzy by war with Zara. The last war should be launched near the end of the game so that those new conquered cities don't drag our research to Mass media.

@OSS score
I don't think there's bad thing happened. Their 984 score previous must be due to HG completion and then they did heavy whip in multiple cities and stop research in the same time to anticipate lib bonus.
 
@dingding
I would not consider Cui war since it does not fit the tech route and is too late. The extra cost of MT + Gunpowder + expensive cost of units make it very inefficient. Moreover, remember that Justinian, Toku and Izzy all will have WEs.

@kossin
Yes , we need to defeat Zara and Izzy as soon as possible.

My proposal of the 1st war vs Zara + Izzy

1 Trireme + 5~7 Galleys
3~4 spies
5 cats
~15 macemans

The war preparation can be started after the whipping of universities. Vij should skip the lib and University and starts the barrack and HE right after Colossus. This war can be done in 10~15 turns and we can take the benefit of the cities from Zara and Izzy.

The cost from trade route is ~20C per turn, but we can root ~400g from 4 cities.
 
I agree with Macemen-based war. While it'll take a bit longer due to unit movement (we can use galleys here to gain momentum and do a 2-turn war on Zara) the beakers gained are quite significant by not diverting to MT+Gp.

I assume the cities we'll take from Izzy are:
Corboda (ivory), Madrid (holy city), Barcelona (dyes).
Meaning we only have to keep Mehmed at Cautious to get silk from him.

However we need to do this before Izzy gets Feudalism (she hasn't got Monarchy yet though so we have some time -- you cannot have a vassal unless you have Feudalism even if the would-be-vassal has the tech) for fear of peace-vassaling (and we should get Feudalism on our own incidentally).
 
Lack of time, I can only submit the plan for the next 7 turns
. I'll make it complete tomorrow.

It'll be good for us to fix the first 7 turns first.

Spoiler :
T157:
FS in 2S of Varan go 1W to chop
Galley go 1S2E
Delhi whips Monastery
Vijay whips forge
Madras takes Vijay's Marble
Pata whips LH overflow to Pantheon
Galley go 1S2E

T158:
Vijay=>Library
FS in Ptata go 1N2W to Galley
Galley go 1N2W
FS in Agra go 1S1E to road
Pata 1pop on 3F2C

T159
Pata Pantheon => Library
FS in Lhahore go 1N1W to road
Galley go 1E
Delhi => Barrack (1)
Vijay 4th pop on 1F3H
Calcutta whips LH

T160
Delhi whips Barrack, 1 pop on 2F2C to 1F3H1C
another FS in Lahore go to gold mine and mine
Calcutta => Forge

T161
Varan 7th pop on 2F1C
Bangalore 1 pop in 2F2C to 4F
Bombay 4th pop on 1F2H

T162
Delhi on HG
1FS on Lahore go to Galley
Galley go 1S1E
Delhi 8th pop => Engineer
Bangalore whips the pop on deer into Granary
FS on Deer road
Varan whips Forge
Vijay 1 pop on 2F2C => 1F3H
Madras take one cottage from Varan
FS north of Varan go 3E to cottage
FS south of Varan go 1S1W to chop and cancel

T163
Varan=>Library
Bangalore => Lh. 1pop on 2F2C=>4F
1FS in Pata go 1S to chop
1FS unloads from Galley
Galley goes 1W, FS loads, Galley go 1E
Delhi settles whatever kind of GP, 1pop Engineer to 2F2C
FS in Hyder goes 1E to chop
 
T157
I don't like the Vijay whip it takes 2 turns to grow back 1 of the whipped pop, whip next turn. Madras can use a cottage instead.
Delhi whip: I like the plan to get NE out ASAP.

T158
Vijay's next build: Heroic Epic will go here, I agree with Duckweed we don't have the spare hammers for Library+university.
Cottages vs Colossus : there should be ~100 turns left in the game, seeing as coast colossus > cottage for 45 turns (and then are equal to villages), Colossus should be built here. Farms for whipping . Obviously this might change Vijay's micro for later so I didn't check.

T163
Don't settle a GE... if we're lucky enough to get one. GS = bulb Edu, I think we should strongly consider start saving up anything else for Golden Ages.
 
@dingding
I have not run any test so I can't say anything about the micro of workers and tiles. I only commend on city build. Besides the Vij issue mentioned by kossin, here's more

1. T159 Pat -- stays at Part until size 5 or 6. Either settler or lib depends on whether the settler can catch the bonus of HG. Edit: we're probably ~15 turns to the completion of HG, so lib 1st should be all right.
2. T159 Del -- why starts barrack, it's 1 pop whip and only speeds up NE by 1 turn. I don't think 20GPPs is better than 1 pop yield for many turns.
3. T161 -- why not whip forge in Var immediately?

@kossin
We don't need to vassal Zara if we can't get the Feudalism trade in time. His vote can be ignored. Edit: @The war is going to start ~300AD and end ~500AD, very low chance that we can't get Feudalism from trade.

Edit:
T157 -- Whip LH in Agra and then works on coastal tiles instead of gold tile next turn. coastal tile -- 2F2C = 4H2C won't be worse than the desert gold tile 2H7C. We need Hindu missionary in the mainland and also Agra needs CH to save the distance cost. (-9.39g at size 3)

Regarding next GP
GS -- bulb Edu (~2300/1.2 beakers) vs settled (70 turns * (2H + 17~30B)), IMO pretty similar. If bulb, then we need to control the tech so that the beakers invested to Edu should not exceed.
GE -- A tricky problem atm. If settled, we will delay the UN by ~10 turns if no GE later. On the other hand, if there's another GE spawned later especially late, then we will lose quite a lot hammers and beakers. It's ~70 turns to Mass Media. I prefer to settled it.
Other types -- settled.
 
@ Duckweed+kossin:

1. About Delhi's whipping (Duckweed): I thought it through and now I think whipping a missionary is better than a barrack. It's cheaper than barrack so we get more overflow, and it's useful in the very short future. I provide two options with the missionary: a) spread Confu to the Dear city, it will pay back very soon because Granary+LH+Forge or library is soon to be whipped; b) spread Confu to Aksum. Zara's got only one city with Budha, I guess it's enough to convert him into Confu with two missionaries (another one for the wheat city). Thus we avoid of irritating the whole Budha party if the war plan is launched (though I'm not yet convinced that a war is necessary).

Lastly, the missionaries are needed sooner or later because all our cities should be running the State Religion when the victory is achieved according to the victory conditions.

2. T161 at Varan (DW): That's the turn when the tree is down. So we can't 2-pop whip the Forge but 3-pop at the spot.

3. T157 at Pata (DW): Good. Will whip the LH and start Hindu Missionary here.

4. About GP: Yes it occurs to me that bulbing Edu would be better. To add to what Duck said, earlier Edu = earlier Universities = more beaker. About GE, if we don't settle it, HG would be much less strategic so we may have to revise the plan. I prefer to settle it because I'm convinced we'll still have multiple occasions to pop another.

5. T157/158 in Vijay (kossin): OK to whipped it next turn.

Something about the war plan:

Zara is the weakest rival (3 cities), that being said that it's not that lucrative to loose a DoW chance on him though it's that easy to defeat him. We've only got two chances of DoW so I prefer to spend them on big targets to small ones: for one thing to get better landmass; for another to generate more GG. For me, Toku+Justine/Saladin+Toku are good targets.

Another thinking about the war plan is that the war will bring additional costs of delaying tech/infra. Just like kossin suggests, starting a HE in Vijay instead of Libra/Uni as well as spamming units/barrack will certainly delay the growth (cottages+pops+GP+wonders) and infra (Uni+OX+Oberser). Together with the loss of DoW chance, loss of beakers (Construction+ Machinery), loss of traderoad income, damage to diplo, etc, I doubt that the limited profit from the war against Zara could possibly cover it. (May I point out that Zara has only 3 cities so we can only capture 2 according to the victory conditions. Izzy has more cities so more input into war preparation and more time spent on the war, so more delay of infra + more loss from traderoads)

Edit: to make it clearer, I'm not disagreeing to the war plan against Zara+Izzy. But the moment and the measure being suggested are not very valid to me.

In response to Duck's opinion about Cuirassier rush, we can think it differently: a) this rush comes relatively later so we can have a better infra to gain more from infra bonus; b) The conquest will be quicker and easier so we avoid some loss. c) We can grab a better landmass + more pillages from cities. In these conditions the loss of beakers for MT and Gunpowder may be covered.


@ All:

I think it's appropriate to split my set into two because if a GS is poped, the micro would be greatly changed because of acceleration of Edu.
 
Yes, Deer city will get benefit from a missionary, but 1 pop loss from Delhi is more than in other cities. Can we do 2 pop whip of a missionary from Pat?

Isn't 3 pop whip of Forge better? so that the forest get forge bonus.

Dow Zara = Dow Zara + Izzy Dow us. Only their cities can be a boost to our empire.

I'm fine to stop at T163 1st.
 
Yes, Deer city will get benefit from a missionary, but 1 pop loss from Delhi is more than in other cities. Can we do 2 pop whip of a missionary from Pat?

Missionary costs 60h. 1 pop in Pata is worth 45*125% = 58h. It's hard to control the hammers for a 2-pop whipping.

It's true that 1 pop-whipping in Delhi is more loss than in another city, but it'll gain more hammers as well.

Isn't 3 pop whip of Forge better? so that the forest get forge bonus.

The 1 pop saved can get bonus from the next whipping as well so it's the same maths calculation.

Dow Zara = Dow Zara + Izzy Dow us. Only their cities can be a boost to our empire.

Not exactly. If two missionaries are sent to Zara, we have a decent chance to convert him into Confu so Izzy won't get involved in the war. (BTW if 3 missionaries are sent, it's 100% sure we can convert him.)
 
Can't say much from work but splitting the set in 2 is fine with me.

Also 125% of 45 is 56 not 58. Still it means not working the cows so it doesn't really change anything.
 
Missionary costs 60h. 1 pop in Pata is worth 45*125% = 58h. It's hard to control the hammers for a 2-pop whipping.

It's true that 1 pop-whipping in Delhi is more loss than in another city, but it'll gain more hammers as well.

You did not get what I mean for. Every citizen in Delhi is more valuable than citizen in other cities. 1 2F3C tile will yield 3*1.5 * (1.85 ~ 3.1B) * 60% slider now and in the near future. Therefore, before Delhi run out any infra and wonder, it should not sacrifice itself to aid other cities. More hammer gain from whipping in Delhi means nothing if it does not boost Delhi itself more than the yield from 1 extra citizen. Other cities as Pat is better choice to 2pop whip a missionary without working on the COW tile (lose 4H).

The 1 pop saved can get bonus from the next whipping as well so it's the same maths calculation.

Earlier whip means grow back faster, hence next whip of lib could be 1 turn earlier.

Not exactly. If two missionaries are sent to Zara, we have a decent chance to convert him into Confu so Izzy won't get involved in the war. (BTW if 3 missionaries are sent, it's 100% sure we can convert him.)

We want Izzy to DOW us so that we have another DOW left for another AI. Zara's capital will be the 2nd best city.
 
Plan updated for:
1) Whip 2 pop into a missionary in Pata and overflow into Pantheon.
2) Whip 1 pop into a missionary in Delhi and accelerates the next GP by 1 turn compared to natural build.
3) Start a Hindu missionary earlier.

Spoiler :
T157:
FS in 2S of Varan go 1W to chop
Galley go 1S2E
Delhi whips Monastery
Madras takes Varan’s cottage
Pata whips LH overflow to Pantheon
Galley go 1S2E

T158:
Vijay whip forge
Varan take one cottage from Madras
Madras take the Marble
FS in Ptata go 1N2W to Galley
Galley go 1N2W
FS in Agra go 1S1E to road
Pata 1pop on 3F2C

T159
Vijay=>Library, the 4th pop on mine
Pata Pantheon => Missionary; one pop on Cow=>3F2C
FS in Lhahore go 1N1W to road
Galley go 1E
Delhi => Missionary
Vijay 4th pop on 1F3H
Calcutta whips LH

T160
Delhi whip Missionary
Pata whip Missionary
another FS in Lahore go to gold mine and mine
Calcutta => Forge

T161
Varan 7th pop on 2F1C
Bangalore 1 pop in 2F2C to 4F
Bombay 4th pop on 1F2H
Delhi 1 pop on 2F3C to Mine
Pata=>Pantheon
Missionary from Delhi go to Aksum
Missionary from Pata go to Bangalore


T162
Delhi on HG
1FS on Lahore go to Galley
Galley go 1S1E
Delhi pop on mine => Engineer
FS on Deer road
Varan whips Forge
Vijay 1 pop on 2F2C => 1F3H
FS north of Varan go 3E to cottage
FS south of Varan go 1S1W to chop and cancel

T163
Stop to see the GP


Edit: I need some more options from kossin+BIC+Bugg. Seems everyone is kinda busy this Sunday but hope the play can be checked soon. Hopefully I can play it tomorrow if feedback is given quickly.
 
Earlier whip means grow back faster.

Yes, but it will loose a few turns of growth of a cottage as well.

We want Izzy to DOW us so that we have another DOW left for another AI. Zara's capital will be the 2nd best city.

Apparently if we defeat Zara+Izzy the game is won already (if Meh is UN rival, we have Zara+Izzy+Justine+(Saladin), if Justine is the rival, we have Zara+Izzy+Meh+(Saladin)). In fact you can change Izzy for any other AI to get the same result. So why get involved in a double DoW at a time while we can beat them one by one?
 
I tested the plan in post 1048 and liked it.
The updated plan looks good, nice work :)

I think the library in Vijay is necessary : we will need a university there if we want Oxford asap.
I also like the missionary whips.


@ Pataliputra :
We need some whips to complete the Parthenon, but letting the city grow is also a nice thing. We can hire an engineer first if we want.
 
The way I see it:

a) We don't even need an army to win it. Requires more careful diplo and is risky to not get some of the votes we need.

b) We DoW 2 civs to capitulate with intent of having more votes to ensure UN

c) A variant of b) we still DoW 2 civs but this time we grab cities that will be useful to our tech rate.

Proposition A
Easy to do... just tech to UN as fast as possible, find Fur and trade for the rest. However we probably need quite a few troops to secure the Fur so an 'army' is most likely required anyway.

Proposition B
DoW Toku+Sal/Justinian. While we can easily vassal any of those 2, we will need to either release the cities to a new civ or gift back the cities and risk to lose vassals (the cost will be very high).

Releasing a new vassal is easily achieved however.

Proposition C
There's a good chance that Zara will bribe Izzy to fight us if we DoW him (we're Cautious with Mehmed however so this might be a problem I think we can rely on 67% of his power to be safe. Izzy might ask for too much from Zara if our power is high enough but this is doubtful at 133%). We can capture Aksum from Zara which is one of the best cities on the map and the wheat spot which is pretty good too.

From Izzy, Corboda (island with Ivory) and 2 other cities on her landmass (I suggest Madrid and a dye city).

Keep in mind we can also try angering Toku with demands in hopes of another DoW.

Anyway, DoW Zara is probably fastest as we'll gain useful cities and vassaling him would give +1 happy everywhere.

I'll review the plan and post after.
 
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