SGOTM 11 - Smurkz

Your tech outline was 30 turns, which was the scope of my suggested builds. If we are running scientists, slow building granaries is fine.

Deli just spent two builds on settlers. I agree it should focus on infrastructure, scientists and growth.

IMHO chop chop chop the forests. We aren't lumbermill people this game. Rex and speed is
our strong suit.

OK, I had a chance to go back and review the save. My personal impression is that our priorities should be, in priority order:

1. Run scientists to keep research going
2. Alphabet and workboat exploration for tech trading
3. Build the fish/fish/cow/pig site
4. Get one more settler out for the crab/floodplain site
5. Infrastructure

Note that there are two workers on the Marblia cows and one worker on the Incencia cows, so those pastures should be complete soon.

The above list matches what Xc outlined, so I think we are in agreement.

Hmm, awful quiet other than Chris, who's busy at his conference. We haven't heard much from Niklas, and since he's played at least 1 more turnset than anybody else and BL is unavailable for awhile I'll assume that I'm up. "Got it." Here's a plan for ~15 turns. Counting Chris as an "OK", I think we only need one more person to approve before I play, unless others object. I can play pretty much any time this weekend.

Techs:
Finish Fishing, start Alphabet. Math tentatively next, but I won't get to it. Toggle between 100/0% research as always.

Civics: Hold off on Caste System until Estonia is ready to run 2 specs in about 4 turns. Marblia is many turns away from getting to pop 2 so I won't be able to whip it. (Hmm, I should check to see if Caste is cheaper than Slavery--if so, I'll revolt immediately.)

Builds:
Deli: settler, granary, library or settler? Run 4 scientists after getting to pop 7.
Oraclia: granary
Estonia: granary. Run 2 scientists at pop 4. Run 1 right away if it'll save us a turn on Fishing.
Argentina: worker until Fishing, then start workboat.
Incensia: granary
Marliba: granary until Fishing, then switch to workboat (chop forest to speed it).
Fishenzia: Use Deli settler being built to found by 2fish/cows/pigs/lakes. Build granary (switch to workboat if Confusion spreads so the borders will pop to include fish).

Exploration: Probably won't get that far this turnset but Argentina WB goes west, Marblia WB goes east via northern island.

Workers:
FW1: Pasturize cows by Incensia, then chop to speed granaries in Incensia and Estonia
FW2: Road the broken link between Deli and Oraclia, then improve around Oraclia. (FP and cows are 45% ours--will flip within a few turns--farm FP and chop forest to speed granary)
FW3,4: Finish Marblia cows, chop forest for workboat, etc.
FW5: Finish road to Fishenzia site, road resources, pasturize after city is founded.

Sorry, really busy weekend. Tomorrow should be better.

Xcal is up, not me. He last played -60, I played -81 (and two turnsets as well).

Turnset looks fine to me. I vote for a library in Deli. Build the settler someplace else. Perhaps Fishenzia, Oraclia or Marblia could build the settler.

Thanks for reviewing, Chris. Anybody else? I will have progressively less time to play as the day goes on and would really like one more OK before I do.

Tentatively, I'll start around 3:30 pm EST but will only play for around 9 turns because we should get a GP from Deli around then, either an Engineer or a Scientist. It'll be a good place to stop, assess where we are, and decide what to do with the GP.

Yes, I think it looks fine. I agree with Chris, we want a library up.

Glad you liked the plan--I've already played some.

I stopped after 4 at T114 because there are some interesting decisions to make. First, status:

T110--Revolted to Caste System, ran 1 scientist in Estonia. Fishing went from 8 turns at breakeven to 3. After the turn end, the Great Wall was BIAFAL--we got 29 gold.
T111--Ran at 50% to squeeze out Fishing in 2 more turns.
T112--Marblia pasture complete. Put Estonia scientist on plains forest to speed growth to pop 4 next turn. Noticed Incensia was running an artist (because of switch to Caste?), put him on incomplete cow tile. Eh, it'll speed our border pop (2 more turns). Argentina's borders pop--no new land or resources.
T113--Fishing complete, start Alphabet (at 0%). Estonia to pop 4, run 2 scientists. Switch Marblia from incomplete granary to workboat, Argentina from incomplete FW to workboat. Another oops--Marblia had run an artist for 2 turns while the pasture was incomplete. Put him on the cows. Oraclia gains cows and floodplains; work cows. Our breakeven point is 20% research.
T114--Deli finishes settler, starts granary. Incensia's borders pop and the pasture is complete.

The decisions:
(1) Marblia will finish its workboat in 6 turns with 20 hammers from the chop. We can speed that to 5 turns if we stop working the cows and run an artist for 2 turns because then our borders pop and we get an extra 10 from the forest. Marblia does not have Confusion. BTW, Argentina's workboat will finish in 11 turns. We'll likely lose a few hammers to decay before we finish its partial fast worker.
(2) We can get a 100% Great Scientist in Estonia in 9 turns if we hold off on running scientists in Deli for awhile (and run an extra sci in Estonia for 2 turns). At the moment, Deli can grow to pop 7 in 7 turns and finish its granary in 6, or grow/granary in 8/5 with tile reassignment. The latter would work better if we delay the scientists. Or.... if we want a GP (either Eng or Sci) ASAP we could start running 3 scientists right now.

I assume we'd use our first Great Sci for a Deli academy? After Deli starts running scientists it'll dominate our GP production for quite awhile, but we won't have 100% pure Scientist genes. If we absolutely want a Great Sci first, we can do it in Estonia.

REAL game, T 114, 1150 BC:

I say definitely run Artist to pop Marblia's borders.

I like the plan to grow Deli, and then rather the plan for granary in 5 and growth in 8. The first GSci should be used for an Academy in Deli, yes. If we can get one at 100% in Estonia while growing Deli, I would want to go that route.

Played to T125, 875 BC, and uploaded save. Gotta run to dinner--will report after, but we're doing fine.

T115: Zara built Great Lighthouse. He'll have Polytheism in 2 turns.
T116: Marblia pops borders, changes artist to work the cows. Forest is chopped toward workboat. Fishenzia is founded by 2fish/pigs/cows/lakes, starts a workboat. We go from +5gpt at 0% to -1gpt.
T117: Breakeven at 0%, 12 bpt.
T118: Oraclia to pop 2, works floodplains.
T119: Deli finishes granary, starts library. Marblia finishes workboat, restarts granary. Zara is 3 turns from Monotheism.
T120: Workboat sees N corner or island. Incensia chops the NE forest. Estonia adds 1 more scientist (3 total), running at -2fpt to get a GP in exactly 3 more turns.
T121: Deli to pop 7. Switch Argentina workboat back to fast worker because Fishenzia will finish its workboat soon and we will start to lose hammers on the fast worker because of decay. (BUFFY warns after 10 turns, but it's actually 15--we'll only lose a couple hammers.) Incensia to pop 2.
T122: A forest grows SW of Incensia. Our exploring workboat sees that the northern island is a dead end. Nice place for a city, though, with fish and 2 sugars.
T123: Great Scientist born in Estonia, heads to Deli. Estonia goes back to running 2 scientists. Zara will have Priesthood in 2 turns.
T124: Estonia's borders pop. Academy in Deli. Chop near Deli goes to library. Start running 4 scientists in Deli. -2gpt and 30bpt at 0% research.
T 125: Incensia finishes granary, starts Chichen Itza. Oraclia to pop 3 (granary in 1 turn), FP farm done. Marblia to pop 2, marble quarry done. Deli is 4 turns from a library, 7 turns to a Great Person. We're 7 or 8 turns from Alphabet.

We'll need to think about new builds, which tiles to work, and what some workers should do. Uh, where do I find that fancy log file with the pretty color fonts?

Upload log:

I have to say, I sure am glad we realized we can get border pops by running artists. We don't need no stinking Stonehenge!

Looks great!

The log file will (probably) be in c:\program files\firaxis games\sid meier's civilization 4\beyond the sword\mods\buffy-3.1.9.003\autolog

The save (real)

The world


Fishenzia


Cities

Looked over the save more closely.

Our score is now lowest, but that's the price we pay for Rex.

I suggest running an artist in Fishenzia after if finishes the workboat, then pasturing the pigs. The Fishenzia workboat can explore west, and the Argentina workboat can net the fish for Fishenzia. The worker chopping trees near Fishenzia should wait for the border pop to complete the chop. I recommend we use the chop on a granary for Fishenzia, grow it fast, and have Argentina build its second workboat for netting fish.

Oraclia could build another axe after it finishes the granary, which would allow it to grow.

When the worker leaves the marble tile, the fogged tile 1S of rice might be able to produce barbarians? Can barbarians pop up within two spaces of our borders?

The next turnset should be 8 turns until Alphabet, then regroup to discuss technology trades and see what we have found in the east.

Edit - in fact, I recommend Xc play the next 8 turns as part of his turnset, to get things moving along. I don't think there are many decisions to make.

Deli should build a monastery after the library is complete.

Thanks for the screenshots, Chris. And yeah, I often forget about running Caste-enabled artists to pop borders. I agree with all your points, although chopping now by Fishenzia would speed the workboat, if I remember correctly. Yes, we'll have to be careful with fogbusting out west. I moved the axe temporarily to the coast to watch for passing ships while the marble worker could fogbust. Yes, I could play some more if desired.

Here are some short- to mid-term considerations. Our breakeven is basically at 0% research. Growth will help a little, but I think we seriously need to consider building at least a few cottages to help us in the long term, and/or have some city run a bunch of merchants (with an eye to trade missions). At some point we're going to have to back off on running specialists for awhile so we can grow Deli, etc. some more, perhaps after we get Math and trade for other techs.

Our explorer workboat in the north is 5 turns from reaching the eastern island, and we'll have one in the west around the same time. BTW, Zara has sent a workboat off to the west. His tech rate is pretty impressive and he has the GLH. We shouldn't trade Alphabet to him for awhile lest he beat us to lots of trades, which leaves only (?) CoL as a tech we have that he doesn't.

After Alphabet I favor Math. This gives us the chopping bonus, opens up Hanging Gardens (after an aqueduct), helps with Currency, is required for Civil Service, and would be good trade bait. I'm thinking maybe we want to save the forests around Incensia to speed-chop HG. We'd get a major population boost, more health, and it would give Incensia more culture to push back Laibela and eventually take over the oasis.

We have two more good city sites, by the rice/FPs and out west by the clams crabs. The clam crab site is calling Moai to me, and we could chop it out very quickly. As soon as we get Sailing (presumably in trade) we should settle sugar island lest Zara takes it. Where and when should we build more settlers? I don't think we can afford another city right now, but maybe after we get Math we can use our food-heavy cities for that.

Deli: library, monastery (for +10% research)
Oraclia: axe?, temple (1/2 price, could run a priest to boost Prophet GP rate --> shrine)
Estonia: granary
Argentina: finish FW, finish workboat
Incensia: ?? See below
Marblia: finish granary or switch to another workboat for its clams?
Fishenzia: workboat, granary

Chichen Itza is a placeholder in Incensia--no hammers yet. We don't want it, but it would provide some stone-powered consolation gold. It's enabled by CoL, though, so it'l be awhile before anyone else can build it unless/until we trade it away. I'd remember CI for the future but would probably build an axe first, then work on an aqueduct/Hanging Gardens when Math comes in. BTW, Zara may be our buddy but he will still DoW when Pleased. Let's not invite trouble.

Speaking of military, how many warriors do we have? When do they go obsolete? When we get Hunting? Iron Working? I think we want at least 6. If we don't have that many now, let's build 'em ASAP.

I want that sugar/fish site too... Don't want Zara beating it to us. There's not a lot of happy resources around and I'd rather not be relying on Zara for sugar.

I'll have a look at the save tonight. Some quick comments.

Warriors go obsolete with Hunting+BW (that's with metal - we can actually build them until we get Gunpowder if we give away our metal).

I too favor Maths after Alphabet. We should be able to back-fill trade for most other techs we need at this point.

Yes, we probably want cottages around Deli, it could be an awesome Bur capital down the line. We'll have Marblia and Fishenzia in particular running tons of scientists, one of those two should be our primary GP farm.

Moai out west is a possibility, but Marblia is a very strong contender for it IMO.

I don't think we're in such a hurry for the Fishenzia exploring workboat that we should give up chop hammers for it. I'm hoping/expecting that the AI Zara has met are to the east, and we will meet them soon which will give us trading opportunities. I have less expectations of the western workboat - that could be a very small island. If anyone was there, they probably would have visited us already.

We would be willing to trade CoL to Zara, right? Definitely do not trade Alphabet to anyone anytime soon, but we can discuss that later after we see what trades are possible.

The only city sites I see remaining are crabs/floodplains and sugar/fish/island. Where do you see a western clams site? Do you mean you want to cram two cities in the crab/floodplain/rice area? I would argue that we should put one city there, and leave the rice for later. It's not really a power tile since it isn't irrigated. We can farm it for the health bonus when it's in our cultural borders. I would rather have the sugar site, as BL says.

Most of Xc's comments are future planning - for the next 8 turns, the proposed plan seems fine to me. I like a temple in Oraclia. Marblia should finish granary, then build workboats. An axe in Incencia unless we need another warrior.

Few thoughts:

One more city on the main landmass for the rice/floodplains area. Save the crab tile for overseas settling.

Fishenzia should be the GP farm. There's so much food here it practically screams it, thus leaving Delhi as the hammer place.

I like Moai in the sugar city site. Looks like from the screenshots there's a handful of hills there to build it quick plus enough sea tiles (14 if I counted right) to make it very lucrative. In fact I'm settling it next if possible. We need sailing though - probably trade for it from Zara. Marble-land should make a galley shortly thereafter and we should have a settler ready elsewhere for it to be settled asap. If Zara's blocked out west, he will settle it soon... As for Moai elsewhere, I'm not feeling a crab site location for it since I'd rather work cottaged land tiles than coastal tiles. Marble-land wouldn't be a bad alternative though. I just worry we'll eventually want some other National Wonders here. I doubt Sugar Land will be in the running for other National Wonders down the road. We'll make that decision if/once we settle it.

Tech trading - I'd hold on trading any major techs to Zara until we meet a bunch of other AI's. Wouldn't want him brokering CoL around before we have a chance to trade with others. Math after alphabet - HG would be a good wonder here for the health bonus.

I also like BL's suggestion of the sugar island as our next city - but it requires sailing and iron working. How soon do you think we can trade for those?

At any rate, we won't be building the settler before we get Alphabet anyway.