SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

And Dhoom, the point of that only worker action is to give the forest a chance to regrow. 1 turn lost is not the end of the world. i'll move directly the worker on the forest to increase that chance. Starting an improvement can have the same effect that starting a road, i think.
You think. Great. Why not go with the facts?

We put a partial Cottage 1W of Delhi. In a few test game runs, a Forest grew over top of that square.

It is only when the improvement is completed that Forest growth gets disrupted.

Why do you think that I mentioned the fact that you could partially complete the Worker action, be it a Road or a Cottage, but just not complete the action? Because the partially-completed improvement will not disrupt our Forest regrowth chances on that square!



So, you are instead of doing the best thing (Cottage) or the second best thing (Road), you are going to do the worst thing and just throw away the Worker action? I already said that you were approved to put a partial Road there, if that's what you insist on doing.

But now you want to do neither and just throw the Worker action away INTENTIONALLY? I don't mind if someone makes a mistake, but you are choosing to perform a worst-case scenario. What kind of playstyle is that? Who is approving these kinds of actions? How many other decisions are you going to make this way?
 
In other News...
It appears that Plastic Ducks have Drafted themselves an army.

Between 55 AD and 250 AD, their Power level went through the roof. Their Score's rate of increase dropped noticeably.

My guess is that they have heavily Farmed a lot of their Cities and have drafted themselves an army of either Macemen or Musketmen, if not both.


What does that mean? Well, it means that the competition is competent and will be tough to beat. We can do it if we play like a team instead of a bunch of individuals who don't post PPPs and thus set up conditions in their turnset where the next player has to reverse a lot of the things that the previous player did, which is the mistake that many teams have made in the past and which is the mistake that having a PPP is supposed to correct.
 
BLubmuz, it's okay for you to disagree with an opinion of another team member. In fact, disagreement is good as the outcome of the following discussions is a more thorough PPP and a better played turnset.

At this point, it's unclear to me what you plan to do and which of Dhoomstriker's ideas you agree or disagree with. Please allow the rest of the team to be a part of this process. In writing your PPP, you'll give all of us a chance to see what you intend to do during your turnset. If there is a disagreement with any part of it, discussion will follow and then a vote if needed. These are the team rules, yes?

If you're opposed to creating a detailed PPP similar to what others have written, at least propose the basics of what you intend to do and indicate that you understand and have taken into consideration all of our team's comments, otherwise they will be repeated again. Then, if someone wants more detail in the PPP, they can take the token and update the PPP per our new process.

My offer to write the PPP still stands, but I will be out of my office all day tomorrow at a client's office, so I wouldn't be able to get to it until Wednesday...
 
Not going to get into the discussion of road/improments or whatever...

Just reminding you that a worker turn lost will be nothing compared to not finishing the game on time...

Had to say it.
 
There're only few variations on the PPP i posted days ago.
Any of them was already discussed, so i update it for the sake of good relations
There's some (OK, many) mistake on my post above, so:

Switch to OR+slavery and convert to Confu at the start of turn 156

T156
worker 1 moves to pigs, pasture, then cows, pasture
worker 2 finish mine, then moves to the PHF and chop
worker 3 finish chop near Wheaties, then finish chop the HG near Dehli (GLHFor)
worker 4: T156 move 2 from horses (1SE of marble), cottage/stop.
T157 move 2 on cows, pasture/stop.
T158 move on forest, start chop in 5 (the forest is gone on turn 162) so we can settle right before the HG are in (T163)
worker 5 finish pasture horses, cottage/stop 1E of marble, then pasture cows

Cities:
Dehli will fire all the specialists and work max hammers tiles to whip the Aqueduct for 2 pop, then HG with 2 chops in turn 163
Silverado will continue its granary working the silver
GPF will continue work pigs, whip the WB right after reached size2, granary, WB
Riverdale will whip monastery in turn 157, then Confu missionary
Bedrock finish settler, galley at max hammers, whip after the HG

I will save at the end of turn 162, before the HG completes
As already posted, some warrior will move to save away costs.

I'll wait until you're reasonably out of your beds, then i'll play.
 
BLubmuz, give me a few minutes to read back through the last three pages to see if you missed anything critical in your PPP. Also, there was some contention about whether you were to play until T159 (your original plan) or T162 (which has not been agreed by the team). How long do you intend to play?

Keep in mind that by providing a PPP with this level of detail, you're basically putting an end to having a test game in-line with our actual game since there is no way to duplicate your moves to create an accurate test save.

Or, you'll have to provide the required level of detail of every move you made after the fact. If you plan to do that, why not just provide it up front first? It's the same amount of work whether you do it before or after you play.

I sense that we're at a crossroads in this game. Several of the team members are pushing for more generic PPPs while letting the player make decisions on his own while playing. Others feel that we're still at a time in the game when detailed PPPs are required. To me, it comes down to the fact of whether or not we want an accurate test game so that we can test our moves before they happen. There will definitely come a time in the game when it will be impossible to keep an accurate test game due to meeting multiple AIs and having way too many variable to control.

Personally, I don't think we're at the point in this game where we've outgrown the usefulness of having an accurate test game, so I still see benefit in having more detailed PPPs. Having the ability to test out your ideas using an accurate test game provides a huge advantage over teams that are not doing this. When I'm playing a typical single player game, I don't have this luxury and I make a lot of silly mistakes. These mistakes can be avoided with a test game.

I'd be interested to hear what the rest of the team thinks. Lately, it's been BLubmuz and Dhoomstriker doing most of the posting while the rest of the team has been relatively quiet...
 
Switch to OR+slavery and convert to Confu at the start of turn 156

Dhoomstriker suggested that we switch civics on turn 157 instead:

Note that we can OPTIONALLY switch Civics to Slavery + Organized Religion
and Switch Religion to Confucianism on EITHER T156 or T157.

T157 would mean one less turn of pissing off Saladin (1/10th of a point less of pissing him off) but one less turn of pleasing Zara. Since Zara is very easy to get to a Pleased, I don't see much value in making him a tiny bit happier. Plus, we will save a bit of cash for 1 turn of not being in Organized Religion and can get a tiny bit more culture in our empire for being in No State Religion.

If we switch Civics + Religion on T157, we will just wait 1 turn until T157 to whip the Confucian Monastary in Riverdale, instead of whipping it on T156.

Switching Civics + Religion on T157 will still leave us the freedom to choose to switch again at the start of my turnset on T162.

So, my vote goes towards switching Civics and Religion on T157 (BUT DO NOT FORGET TO DO SO!), saving us a bit of cash, getting a tiny bit more Culture, and making Saladin 1/10th of a point happier with us. Since we won't whip the Confucian Monastary in Riverdale until T157, we will lose 0 bonus Hammers from not having the Organized Religion bonus.​
Dehli will fire all the specialists and work max hammers tiles to whip the Aqueduct for 2 pop, then HG with 2 chops in turn 163

After finishing Worker 5, you’ll “work max hammers” while building an Aqueduct. This does not mean to abandon the cottages and farms and to work forest tiles for “max” hammers does it? Keep in mind that we still need commerce and we still want Delhi to grow, so I assume that you will be working all of the mines, the two corn farms, and as many cottages as possible. Dhoomstriker detailed which tiles he worked in his test in post 1947.

worker 2 finish mine, then moves to the PHF and chop

To be clear, which PHF are you talking about? NE + E + E of Delhi, right?

worker 3 finish chop near Wheaties, then finish chop the HG near Dehli (GLHFor)

Again, to be clear, which GLHFor are you talking about? NE + N of Delhi, right?

GPF will continue work pigs, whip the WB right after reached size2, granary, WB

I’m not sure if this happens during your turnset, but the plan is to whip the granary at size 2 as well, right?

As already posted, some warrior will move to save away costs.

Keep in mind that if you do move warriors inside of our borders to save costs (which is a good idea) that you continually provide 100% spawn-busting coverage. It appears that you have a plan in post 1946. Although, the settler for the Crabs city should stand in our intended settling spot (not 1E as you suggested) to avoid a forest growing where we plan to settle. See post 1947 for some other ideas on warrior movements to save costs.

Taoist Missionary: Also, what do you plan to do with the Taoist Missionary? Dhoomstriker suggested a way to get him to Riverdale without disrupting forest re-growth in post 1939. I think Riverdale is the best place for him to go so that we can continue to build culture-producing buildings there.

Wheaties: You haven’t said what you plan to do in Wheaties in this PPP.
 
There're only few variations on the PPP i posted days ago.
Any of them was already discussed, so i update it for the sake of good relations
As already posted, some warrior will move to save away costs.

I'll wait until you're reasonably out of your beds, then i'll play.
Thank you.

I have added in the items that we discussed that I felt were important enough to mention using blue text.

I moved a couple of items to different turns, as per our discussions (Civic Change + Religion change one turn later) and as per when the items get completed (Worker 5 is completed on T157, not on T158). I used green text to indicate these movements of your points from one turn to another.

While running through the test game, I came up with a couple of suggestions that were not previously mentioned. These new suggestions are coloured in purple text.

Note that it looks like I am cross-posting with Mitchum, so there may be things that I missed which he commented on.


PPP 3.1

T156
NEW IDEA: Trade Wheat to Zara for his Clam. [1]
Ctrl+click on a Settler to queue up a second Settler in Wheaties (so it will be building Settler, Settler, Granary)
Delhi fires the 4 Scientists and works: 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Irr, GRiv Cot (1S of Delhi), GRiv Cot (1NE of Delhi), GHRiv Mine (NE + E of Delhi), GHRiv Mine (E + E of Delhi--it will be completed on this turn), PHRiv Mine (1SE of Delhi)
worker 1 moves to pigs, pasture, then Since it will be T162, let's not move Worker 1, in case we need to change our plans for our newly settled Cities [2]
worker 2 finish mine, then moves to the PHF and chop
worker 3 finish chop near Wheaties, then finish chop the HG near Dehli (GLHFor)
worker 4: T156 move 2 from horses (1SE of marble), cottage/stop.
Move Taoist Missionary 2E to the PHRiv Silver
T157
Delhi builds a Worker -> Aqueduct (it will be listed as being complete in 5 turns after switching Civics and Religion--it will say 6 turns before you revolt)
Switch to OR+slavery and convert to Confu at the start of turn 157
Riverdale WHIPS the Confucian Monastary for 115/90 Hammers
worker 4 move 2 on cows, pasture/stop.
worker 5 finish pasture horses, then Since it will be T162, let's not move Worker 5, in case we need to change our plans for our newly settled Cities [2]
Move Taoist Missionary 1NE to the GFor Riv (SE + S of Delhi--moving once uses up 2 movement points)
T158
Riverdale builds the Confucian Monastary -> Confucian Missionary
Bedrock completes Settler 8 -> Manually switch to a Galley
Delhi whips the Aqueduct for 2 population points
Delhi switches the 1NE GRiv Cot to the PHRiv Mine (1SE of Delhi) and works: 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Cot (1S of Delhi), GHRiv Mine (NE + E of Delhi), GHRiv Mine (E + E of Delhi), PHRiv Mine (1SE of Delhi)
worker 4 move on forest, start chop in 5 (the forest is gone on turn 162) so we can settle right before the HG are in (T163)
Move Taoist Missionary 1NE to the PFor (SE + E of Delhi--moving once uses up 2 movement points)
T159
Move Taoist Missionary 2E to the GHRiv For (SW + W + W of Riverdale)
T160
Whip the Work Boat in Grt Person Farm
Move Taoist Missionary moves straight to Riverdale and stay there
Move Settler 9 towards Bedrock

Cities:
Dehli will fire all the specialists and work these tiles in the following order: 2 Corns, Copper, all 3 Mines (even on T156 since the 3rd GHRiv Mine will be complete on this turn), 1S Cottage, 1NE Cottage, GRiv Irr to whip the Aqueduct for 2 pop, then HG with 2 chops in turn 163
Silverado will continue its granary working the silver
GPF will continue work pigs, whip the WB right after reached size2, granary, WB
Riverdale will whip monastery in turn 157, then Confu missionary
Bedrock finish settler, galley at max hammers, whip after the HG
Wheaties finish current Settler, ADD ANOTHER Settler (needed on T160 at the latest if you play past T159), Granary

I will save at the end of turn 162, before the HG completes

Other notes:
1. Keep an eye out for AI Galleys. If you see a Settler Party land, make sure that some units still have movement and pause play. We should discuss which Cities to settle and what to build in them. My initial suggestions are Rice City = Worker + work the Flood Plains Cottage (Bedrock switches to the GRiv Horse), Crab City = Work Boat + work the Fish (GP Farm works the GPig and will whip away population point #2 so it doesn't need a second square to work), and delay settling Three Clams City until the last minute = Work Boat + Clam
2. Keep an eye on our Science Rate--if you switch to a 100% Science Rate on T156, we will run out of Gold on around T160, before the tech can be completed. So, either don't switch to a 100% Science Rate for a couple of turns (say, start on T158) or else toggle it back and forth in the way that you like to do.
3. It is up to you to avoid Unit Supply costs. You know of the bug that doesn't properly update our onscreen Gold per Turn rate, so you will have to check the F2 screen. If you take the time to detail your Warrior movements, we can help to double-check for you, but if you are not going to do so, the responsibility will lie solely on your shoulders to keep Unit Supply costs down to zero on each turn.

References:
[1] We will not need the extra Health from having a Wheat instead of a Clam during your turnset. We will also soon get extra Health from our Rice + Fish. We do not want Zara to make any new friends. If we keep both of his extra Cow and his extra Clam, it will be very hard for him to befriend any AI through trading deals. We can always cancel the deal in the future when we need the health and when "Heathen Religion" negative Diplo modifiers prevent all other AIs from wanting to start a trade deal with Zara. Or else after we hook our Clam Resouces, we can trade away Clam to every AI that wants Clam and then cancel the Clam deal with Zara, since he will have no one left to trade Clam to.

[2] We might not want to improve the PCow by Bedrock and Three Clams yet. For example, Rice City will only have 1 improved square to work and we probably want to get a second square improved soon, since it will build a Worker at stay at Size 2. Thus, we may choose to improve the Marble for Rice City instead of the PCow that neither Bedrock nor Three Clams will need to use yet. Bedrock will have the GRiv Horse and Three Clams will whip a Work Boat for the Clam, so neither City will need to use the PCow immediately. So, let's wait until the next turnset to decide what to do with these two Workers on T162, please.
 
Keep in mind that by providing a PPP with this level of detail, you're basically putting an end to having a test game in-line with our actual game since there is no way to duplicate your moves to create an accurate test save.

Or, you'll have to provide the required level of detail of every move you made after the fact. If you plan to do that, why not just provide it up front first? It's the same amount of work whether you do it before or after you play.
While I agree with Mitchum on this point, and I would still appreciate it if you (BLubz) were to follow his suggestion, I also know how to compromise.

Therefore, I left Worker actions listed in the format that BLubmuz seems to want to use.

I also did not detail any Warrior actions, to stick with his format.

I did provide the details for the Missionary moves, though, as we had previously discussed them.
 
I've seen your additions to my PPP 3.1.

The only thing i disagree is to stop play if a settler party lands in our continent.

It's obviuos that the only way to block them is to settle the city where he arrives.

To clatify, let's suppose it lands near the rice: The only way to avoid it settling there is to settle our city, since the AI usually settles where it lands.

Provided the settler party will move to another location, we'll settle that other location before he can arrive in place (or more than 2 tiles away from a city and outside our cultural borders). It would be annoying if it lands on the forest we're chopping, but we have no choice also in that case: settle immediately, to avoid foreign cities in our continent.

I think the settler party will just stay in place. For some reason the AI don't know what to do if a settling location is stolen. And hardly the AI will reload the settler party in the galley to move to another location.
 
The only thing i disagree is to stop play if a settler party lands in our continent.
Okay, then let me just give my suggestions on the subject.


It's obviuos that the only way to block them is to settle the city where he arrives.

To clatify, let's suppose it lands near the rice: The only way to avoid it settling there is to settle our city, since the AI usually settles where it lands.
I agree that IMMEDIATELY AFTER a Settler Party lands, that is when we need to settle. As long as you do not settle while the Settler Party is still in a Galley, we should be fine.

Remember to settle in the correct spots (settle on the Rice, for example, since you mentioned moving away from the Rice to better spawn-bust).


Provided the settler party will move to another location, we'll settle that other location before he can arrive in place (or more than 2 tiles away from a city and outside our cultural borders).
That method is a reasonable approach to take, so I agree.


It would be annoying if it lands on the forest we're chopping, but we have no choice also in that case: settle immediately, to avoid foreign cities in our continent.
A fair point, and I am okay with losing the Forest chop if it means securing our settling location.

However, I strongly suspect that we'll see a Work Boat from any other AI besides Saladin before we will see a Galley (that is just how the AI is programmed).

So, we only need to worry about Saladin showing up in the near future during your turnset and the first part of my turnset. Saladin will come from the west, so there is almost zero chance of him beelining to the Three Clam City location.

Thus, the only way that he'll land on the Three Clam City's Forest is if you accidentally settle our other Cities before his Settler Party lands. If you settle before he lands, he will continue to "search" for a better City site.


I think the settler party will just stay in place. For some reason the AI don't know what to do if a settling location is stolen.
That has been the behaviour that I observed, too. Isabella would just sit there, even if I just settled ONLY ONE of our Cities that overlapped the spot where she landed. She just wasn't smart enough to pick a new spot and move.

So, technically, you can probably only settle 1 City immediately, instead of 2, but you will have to be the judge, based on where the AI lands.


And hardly the AI will reload the settler party in the galley to move to another location.
Again, I would have to agree with this statement. The AI is programmed on a micro-level and a macro-level. The macro-level has a Galley switch to the "UNITAI_SETTLER_SEA" mode and then it loads up a Settler. A flaw with this mode is that the AI only seems to "pick up" a Settler Party from within a City. So, if we block the City from being formed, the macro-level AI cannot detect the stranded Settler Party. And the stranded Settler Party never seems to get a new order.

Sometimes, you will see "abandoned" Settler Parties on islands in a game that the AI chose not to settle. Sometimes, there is no clear reason why they did so (the island was too small to have Barbs and no other player's units are nearby), but I suspect that in that case, the decision to "send out a Settler Party" was made based on the economy at the time and the decision whether or not to "sit down with the Settler Party" was made based on the economy at the time of unloading the Settler Party. If the economy is not good enough on that turn, the Settler Party stays forever stranded.

So, I also believe that a Settler Party will not move if you settle within a 2-square radius of the square that it landed on.

You can almost certainly get away with just settling 1 City immediately this way and not crashing our economy. But, if for some unexpected reason the Settler Party moves, be prepared to react with your next Settler.


So, that just leaves us to discuss what to build in each of our newly-founded Cities. I gave some initial suggestions, but I do want to point out one thing:
If we have to settle Rice City before the Three Clams City's Forest gets chopped, due to Rice City being slightly "closer" to that Forest than Bedrock is, Rice City will get the Forest chop.

Should we instead build a Settler in Rice City in that case? Or do you want to stick with a Worker as per my original suggestion?

Even if that happens (if Rice City gets the Forest chop instead of Bedrock), we'll be okay, since Bedrock will grow to Size 4 due to building The Hanging Gardens so I will still be able to whip the Galley there without the Three Clam City's Forest chop.
 
Nice to that you agree, for once at least :)

I'll play in few minutes.
 
Nice to that you agree, for once at least :)
In a universe of near-infinite probability, with enough decisions, it's bound to happen at least once! ;)


I'll play in few minutes.
Good luck! :cool:

P.S. Be sure to watch for AI Galleys, watch our Science Rate, and be aware of our Unit Supply costs, since those items aren't listed on a line-by-line basis in the PPP.
 

Attachments

OK, done. Uploaded the save.

In game log:
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 365 BC to 170 BC:

Turn 149, 365 BC: Confucianism has spread in Wheaties.
Turn 149, 365 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Turn 150, 350 BC: You have discovered Fishing!
Turn 150, 350 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 151, 335 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 151, 335 BC: You have discovered Hunting!
Turn 151, 335 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 151, 335 BC: You have trained a Settler in Wheaties. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 152, 320 BC: Judaism has spread in Grt Person Farm.

Turn 154, 290 BC: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 154, 290 BC: You have discovered Archery!

Turn 155, 275 BC: Niels Bohr (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 156, 260 BC: Taoism has been founded in Silverado!
Turn 156, 260 BC: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 156, 260 BC: You have trained a Fast Worker in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.

Turn 157, 245 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 157, 245 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 157, 245 BC: Gandhi converts to Confucianism!
Turn 157, 245 BC: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 157, 245 BC: You have constructed a Confucian Monastery in Riverdale. Work has now begun on Confucian Missionary.
Turn 157, 245 BC: You have trained a Settler in Bedrock. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 158, 230 BC: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 159, 215 BC: Bombay has been founded.
Turn 159, 215 BC: You have trained a Settler in Wheaties. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 160, 200 BC: Grt Person Farm has grown to size 2.
Turn 160, 200 BC: Grt Person Farm can hurry Work Boat for 1? with 31? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 160, 200 BC: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Zara Yaqob for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)

Turn 161, 185 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Grt Person Farm. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 162, 170 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Delhi.
Turn 162, 170 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Delhi.
Turn 162, 170 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ? for Bombay.

The autolog is polluted by the tests, too long to clean it.

Relevant events:
Traded wheat for clams to Zara but turn 157
Revolted to anything in turn 157
T158: Arab galley spotted. alert!
this should be the turn when Zara and Sal finally met. The Arab WB arrived near Ethiopian borders and now is going back
T159: settler party landed. not 1W of rice like the spanish one in the test, but in the forest S+SW of rice. Strangely, a spear not an archer.
I could have settle any of the cities between Rice or crabs to avoid it settling, but i've chosen rice 'cause we gain a resource and it can work an hamlet
Unfortunately, like Dhoom said, the forest chop went to this new city instead of Bedrock. OK, i started a worker there, we can live with this, i hope.
As planned, the settler party is frozen where it landed.
last event: IBT 161/162 met TOKU! a WB, as usual, coming from the same direction of Sal. Toku is buddhist, so in great friendship with Sal and he knows Calendar and construction.
The only negative diplo between them is the "close borders" thing, so they're surely neighbors.
We're the worst enemies of Sal, now.

This is the screenie from the point where i saved:
Spoiler :
attachment.php


Right after opened the save, I moved the 2 warriors W inside our borders, but i kept the one in the desert and moved the one from Bedrock on the northern tip, to spawn bust the island, for what he can do from there.

In the last turn i just completed the chops, moved the worker free from the pasture in the usual GL, still with 1 move.
The only totally free one is on pigs, now improved.

Last thing, purely aesthetical: i left the name Bombay for the rice city, feel free to rename it. I proposed Risaia. In Italian this means where the rice is farmed, but np if you like another name.

Go Dhoom, and go fast.
 
OK, done. Uploaded the save.

Looks good to me, nice work :)

Unfortunately, like Dhoom said, the forest chop went to this new city instead of Bedrock. OK, i started a worker there, we can live with this, i hope.

Which forest chop was this? If the forest is in the BFC of both cities, you can control which one gets the chop. Not sure if this was the case here?

I notice in the screenshot that we'll get the Hanging Gardens next turn. That's exciting. I would claim that this would be an excellent turn to settle the other two cities in that case. It seems a shame to waste the free +1pop. Even if they then had to work 1-food coast tiles to pay for their own maintenance or something.
 
OK, done. Uploaded the save.
Nice work! Thanks!


Grt Person Farm Work Boat
Turn 160, 200 BC: Grt Person Farm can hurry Work Boat for 1? with 31? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 161, 185 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Grt Person Farm. Work has now begun on a Granary.
May I ask: is there a reason why your screenshot still shows the Work Boat in Grt Person Farm instead of on a Fish?

No worries; we'll just set Crab City back by 1 turn overall (it will take 1 turn longer to grow due to having 3 less Food).


Traded wheat for clams to Zara but turn 157
No worries. The fact that you got the job done is what matters for this point.


Revolted to anything in turn 157
Great, thank you!


T159: settler party landed. not 1W of rice like the spanish one in the test, but in the forest S+SW of rice. Strangely, a spear not an archer.
I could have settle any of the cities between Rice or crabs to avoid it settling, but i've chosen rice 'cause we gain a resource and it can work an hamlet
Nice! I think that you chose well here!

Well, we know that Saladin has either Copper or Iron, due to him having a Spearman...


Unfortunately, like Dhoom said, the forest chop went to this new city instead of Bedrock. OK, i started a worker there, we can live with this, i hope.
We can certainly use another Worker. We'll probably want another Settler built SOMEWHERE, though, since we didn't start to make one in Risaia. Should Delhi make one after completing The Hanging Gardens? It would complete quickly due to the overflow. It would also give me the perfect excuse to slip out of Organized Religion on T163 for 5 turns, as Riverdale is buiding a Missionary and Wheaties is building a Settler--the only other two Cities that currently have our State Religion.

Then again, we could consider whipping the Missionary in Riverdale, starting on a Taoist Monastary (to make use of the Org Rel bonus on the overflow Hammers), and building something else in the capitol (a Monastary?) that could make use of the Org Rel bonus. Or we could do both approaches, by buiding a Settler in Delhi and switching out of Org Rel on T164, after having used the whipped Missionary's Hammers as overflow into a Taoist Monastary, since after that turn of whipping, Riverdale would only make 1 Hammer per turn and wouldn't need the Org Rel bonus.

The two Stone-based Wonders (Chicken Pizza [Chichen Itza] and Angry What [Angkor Wat]) are not great to build there, nor is the Apostolic Palace, as all of these Wonders give us additional Great Prophet points.

The only other Wonder, the Hagia Sophia, which might be useful to build mostly for the Great Engineer GPP, requires us to first connect the Marble.

Delhi currently has room to grow Happiness-wise, but will have no more improved squares to work. We'll need to address this situation and building a Settler there might just buy us the right amount of time to get another improvement ready.


the settler party is frozen where it landed.
Chances are that it will sit there for the entire game, unless we end up Closing Borders with him, at which point it might "magically hop" somewhere. I don't know if this "hopping" action would cause it to "wake up" or if it would just sit in its new location for all of eternity.

Either way, nice work in trapping Saladin's expansion potential!


last event: IBT 161/162 met TOKU!
Interesting. He's ummm, how shall I put it, a very tough character to please (one of the toughest AIs to please, actually, requiring that he is Pleased with you before he will even Open Borders with you to get the bonus postivie Diplo modifiers for having shared Open Borders).

a WB, as usual
It is too bad that we want to get the extra population points from building The Hanging Gardens. It would be neat to try and trap multiple AIs' Settler Parties on our continent.


Toku is buddhist, so in great friendship with Sal and he knows Calendar and construction.
Will he offer them in trade? Hmmm, we're Confucian... chances of success are a big fat NO!

We really need to get Buddhism if we want to get at some of these techs from the AIs.


The only negative diplo between them is the "close borders" thing, so they're surely neighbors.
Which is not much of a surprise, with (at least the last-reported figure of) 31% of the world being Buddhist and Toku being Buddhist--it would make sense that the AIs would be next to each other.

The only question becomes which one of them is "closer" to us, as chances are that they have Open Borders with each other and Toku being next to us with his Closed Borders would certainly fall under the "evil DynamicSpirit" category of tricks.


We're the worst enemies of Sal, now.
It figures. Toku is usually a jerk, but if you get on his good side, he can be a great friend. Apparently, Saladin has learned this lesson--can we?


In the last turn i just completed the chops, moved the worker free from the pasture in the usual GL, still with 1 move.
That means I'm pretty much forced in terms of what to do (Road or Cottage on the current square). Then again, I still think that improving the Marble next is the way to go, both so that Risaia can use it and so that we can CONSIDER building The Hagia Sophia and can be READY to build The Parthenon, so no harm done.

If we weren't building a Worker, I'd be tempted to instead irrigate a Flood Plains square, but since we are buiding a Worker, such that Food = Hammers while it is being produced, the Marble square has slightly better output (the same amount of Food + Hammers--1F + 3H--but 2Commerce instead of just 1 from the Flood Plains square).


Last thing, purely aesthetical: i left the name Bombay for the rice city, feel free to rename it. I proposed Risaia. In Italian this means where the rice is farmed
That works fine for me.


VOLUNTEER REQUESTED
Go Dhoom, and go fast.
Can we get a volunteer to update the test saved game? I have people coming in to renovate my place all of tomorrow, so I won't be able to keep my computer set up. I'll have some time on the day afterwards, so if we can get a test saved game in that time, we'll be golden.
 
I notice in the screenshot that we'll get the Hanging Gardens next turn. That's exciting. I would claim that this would be an excellent turn to settle the other two cities in that case. It seems a shame to waste the free +1pop.
Agreed.

Even if they then had to work 1-food coast tiles to pay for their own maintenance or something.
1 population point whipped = 45 Hammers
The cost of 1 Work Boat = 45 Hammers

Size 1 Cities cost less Maintenance than Size 2 Cities.

Does that make you feel better about the situation?
 
Naming the Next Cities
Does anyone want to suggest names for the Crab City and the Three Clams City?

They will both have to be settled on the first turn of my turnset, in order to get The Hanging Gardens' bonus.
I think (with not great fantasy) that Crabs and 3 Clams can be OK.

I don't know what happened with the WB. As usual once the button was red i made a tour of the cities (even if there was not much to do) and took a look in F4 (same).

But i was nervous because the settler. If the AI was less stupid it could have settled on the GL (not coastal) and i could have done nothing. Let's say we exploited a known bug.
Still, i was nervous, but not at the point to hit the button when it was green.
Can i maybe have forgot to whip and delayed 1 turn? It doesn't seems so from the log. :confused:

Please plan roads to connect cities. We have enemies and we're pitifully weak.
Even Zara can see our weakness and decide some action. And, provided we have enough money, we're bounded to keep 4 warriors.

Settling that city has forced me to set the research to 0 next turn. This is the first turn when we can move it again to 100%.
Also, Dehli is growing next turn. Do this growth will lost by the HG?

Also, i think we must invest some hammer in units. Archers and spears mainly and some axe. We can regret to not have done this. And a minimal road network.

Improving marble or cows: i already put 1 turn on cows, so the job is only 5 turns, compared to the 9 (IIRC) needed for the marble.

I think that cows first, then marble, then finally the roads is the best solution.

Hagia Sophia
It not only gives us GE points, but it also reduces our need for workers, saving maintenance costs. It's one of my favorite wonders and i think we must seriously consider to build it. Not a priority until Theo is a monopoly, but...

AP:
If we want it, we must build it in Dehli. No chance to build it in another city before some AI learn Theo. BTW, building it in our bureaucratic Capital costs 22-23 turns. :crazyeye:
BTW, when i traded at the beginning of my TS, Zara showed Sailing in red. I suppose he's building the GLH. Forgot to mention early, sorry.
 
Forest Chops in between Two Cities
Which forest chop was this? If the forest is in the BFC of both cities, you can control which one gets the chop. Not sure if this was the case here?
The Forest chopped was the one on which the Three Clams City will be placed. If you look at his screenshot, it was on the turn that the screenshot was taken in which that northern-most Plains square, NW of the PCow, was chopped.

Since the square was not in the fat cross of any particular City, I do not know how you would instruct the chop to go elsewhere. It might not even be possible to do so. "Bombay" (aka Risaia) was settled just 1 square "closer" than Bedrock was, so Risaia got the Forest chop.


BLubmuz said:
Turn 162, 170 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ? for Bombay.
At least we got 24 Hammers instead of 20 Hammers for the chop!


It does imply that we'll have to whip 2 population points in Bedrock, instead of just 1, but that will be the price of our off-continent expansion. The overflow Hammers will mean that the second Galley will be whippable for just 1 population point, but I won't build it until we need it, since Bedrock's Food is "spread out" across several different Flood Plains Cottages instead of being concentrated in one Irrigated Flood Plains square. Yes, we needed the Cottages, so it was not a mistake to build them (think of how many techs we just BARELY got on time), but when we shrink Below below Size 3, it does hurt this City's regrowth time.


I suppose that a very possible alternative will be to whip the Granary, since we'll be at City Size 4 and can whip the Granary for 2 population points, and then use the Hammers invested in the Granary overflowing into the Galley. Those overflow Hammers plus another whipping action will give us sufficient Hammers to complete the Galley, meaning that we'll at least regrow at a faster rate. However, our first Galley will likely be delayed by 1 turn and our second one will likely be delayed by a few turns, which may not even matter much if we just plan to put the Settler in a good place but not sit down until our economy can afford the "hit" of another City. Once we have a test saved game up, I'll look into that possibility (that of whipping a Granary before the Galleys, due to having grown to Size 4).
 
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