SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Hmm.. so maybe duckweed can do it, and we'll get back to kossin and BIC when they become available?

I'll be here till noon friday, and then I'll be off untill sunday night.

It's probably a good idea to keep moving since the deadline approaches and I suppose most of you have plans at different times during the summer?

EDIT: I wouldn't mind the set played to either Zara capped or all the way through Izzy capped. If you can do Zara by saturday BIC, that would also work out for me.

Bugg123 said:

Hmm.. so maybe duckweed can do it, and we'll get back to kossin and BIC when they become available?

I'll be here till noon friday, and then I'll be off untill sunday night.

It's probably a good idea to keep moving since the deadline approaches and I suppose most of you have plans at different times during the summer?

EDIT: I wouldn't mind the set played to either Zara capped or all the way through Izzy capped. If you can do Zara by saturday BIC, that would also work out for me.

Click to expand...

Then I'll put up a short plan by tonight GMT+1 speaking. Hopefully, it will be easy enough to agree on most points tomorrow


I'll check the save to see the issues at hand.
A few questions I know I have to ask :

- Military build up : do we keep on producing units ? (I think YES ; We will lose at least a few catapults) But where ? (I think not everywhere. Vijay/Calcutta/Bombay ? I'd favour a stop in unit production in Pataliputra, so we can run specialists at last)
- Civics : Do we consider revolting ? That would mean returning to Caste + Pacifism. (Prolly not Caste, no. But Pacifism, maybe).
- Techs : What comes next ? Or rather, in what order ?
- Incoming GP in Delhi next turn : What do we do of it ? Consider saving it for a post war GA ? Or even during the war ? More hammers = Faster Taj-Mahal.

EDIT : Edited.

@BIC

You don't need to play a short set. I have time to play a set this week. You and kossin can make time for next one.

1. We need more units, not cats, but macemans. After removing defense, Maceman, especially CRII maceman has good odd to beat LB.
2. Cities have not grown enough and at least we need markets in multiple cities. No hurry to caste and Pacifism in short time.
3. Tech: Nat->Compass->Optics->Astro/SM/Lib(all 1 turn to completion)

Ok Duckweed, so I'll let you take the set
Thanks !


@2 : The benefit from Pacifism in Delhi alone is BIG. But I guess we can live with Theocracy for a few more turns.

We're in OR now. I think the best time to run Pacifism is during GA, at that time, most infras are done and cities are big enough to run more specialists.

Alright, I'll take a careful look at the save tonight and post some thoughts. Hopefully this is my last set for this game.

Duckweed said:

3. Tech: Nat->Compass->Optics->Astro/SM/Lib(all 1 turn to completion)

Click to expand...

That would be fine with me.

@Astro : It obsoletes the Colossus but also opens the Observatory. Given our infra situation, completing it may make sense.

@Engineering : I stated before it is a prereq to Sci Meth... My bad. It is not. It's a prereq to Chemistry.
So if we can do without it, all the best.

--> 2nd war. We won't get any more military tech, except from trading.
Maybe we don't need that 2nd war. It would be simpler.

Well, this set is quite complicated.

1. Especially the build in each city. I'll try to solve the debate now so that we don't need to spend more time later. The last build in every city is cash.

Agra (Forge->lib->univ->cash , the 2 gold mines here make it a good commercial city)
Lah(CH->cash (wonder with resource for cash/wealth), I dooubt any other building can pay off before we win the game)
Hyde(Forge->Miao->cash )
Bangalore(Forge->HMs->cash )
Var(HMs->Market->cash )
Pat(Market->cash )
Vij(Macemans->Cats->lot of Warrors->Units)
Bombay(Macemans->wonder cash)
Delhi(MoM->Market->Taj/Astro->HMs)
Mandras(1 HM->Market->cash )
Cal(Maceman->Market/HMs->cash )
Lal(Culture->Gra->Cash)
Askum(Culture->Gra/LH->Forge->Lib->Univ->Harbor->Market->Harbor-cash)
Gonda(Culture->Gra/LH->Forge???->cash )
Codoba(Culture->Gra/LH->Forge->CH->cash )
Madrid(Culture->Gra/LH->Forge->CH->Market->cash)

2. When to start GA? How about T200?

3. When to stop the war? There's very high chance that Izzy is willing to capitulate after we capture her capital. Do we want to go ahead to take another city? We need 4~5 more turns to take the dye city. This city barely pays off, the benefit is that we don't need to worry the revolt in Madrid.

4. I can't say much about the war plan because the unit movements are very complicated. The only thing I can tell is we are ready to DOW in T192. The only tech Meh can get from Zara is Construction.

5. I'll try to jump between Slavery+OR and Cast+Pacifism.

6. Tech -- Nat->Compass->Optics->Music->Lib to 1 turn->Astro

7. Next GP, saved. GS will be used to bulb Physics. We need to make the research after SM as soon as possible.

I might miss other important issues, please remind me.

It's true that we don't necessarily need a 2nd DoW to win. We will have a better idea after this war though.

I trust your judgement for war moves Duckweed. I think taking the Dye city is worth it, on basis that Madrid will be safe from revolting. That and not having to worry about trading for Dye - only Silk.

Beg from Mehmed anyway I think, 1 gold should do it.

I doubt the game will be over before you get another run

I think it's good, duckweed.

I also think maybe taking the dye city, even though it has no real payoff, may be worth it (to avoid revolt, and get dye). If it's doable in the 4-5 turns, why not?

Near the end if the Izzy war, I suppose you also start thinking about shipping a spy to mystery island? (I wouldn't mind upgrading our trireme, as I said, to get there quicker, since we're not completing Astronomy any time soon (I guess?)). It's starting to get real important to know we have located the fur, and how to get access to it.

When optics is in, remember the WB on whale (I tend to forget it ).

Other than that, I'm good. I wouldn't mind you playing untill Izzy is done, but if you can't get it done in 15 turns(unlikely with dye as well?) and would prefer to stop, that's fine too.

@kossin
You and BIC need to play 2 sessions and Bugg123 needs to play 1 session, that's ~75 turns. We can give up if we can't pull a win that time.

@Bugg123
Yes, I'll send a spy to the mysterious island with caravel.

I'm OK to take the dye city, I'm just not sure the cost is worthy -- 4~5 turns commercial loss + away unit fee + unit loss vs the city can pay off itself and we can also loot some cash and some GGP. If with luck to war efficiently, we can capture her capital before T205, but capturing the dye city is almost impossible before T205.

Any other opinions and suggestions on the city build? I'll try to post the detailed plan tonight.

My thoughts in green :

Duckweed said:

Well, this set is quite complicated.

1. Especially the build in each city. I'll try to solve the debate now so that we don't need to spend more time later. The last build in every city is cash.
Hyde(Forge->Miao->cash )
--> Maybe insert Market after the Statues Moai ? With high production, it may pay off quickly.
Cal(Maceman->Market/HMs->cash )
--> Why a Market ? The city has very little commerce (mostly coastal). A Harbour or straight cash may be better, especially considering how picky you are with other cities.
Lal(Culture->Gra->Cash)
--> It's a nice production city, so maybe a Forge, here ?
Gondar(Culture->Gra/LH->Forge???->cash )
--> It has very little food, so I'm not sure the Forge is worth it.

2. When to start GA? How about T200?
When Zara's cities are pacified ?

3. When to stop the war? There's very high chance that Izzy is willing to capitulate after we capture her capital. Do we want to go ahead to take another city? We need 4~5 more turns to take the dye city. This city barely pays off, the benefit is that we don't need to worry the revolt in Madrid.
Hum... I would have thought Izzie would not capitulate easily. If she does, though...
"Barely pays off" means it pays off, right ? What's the benefit of ending the war 4-5 turns earlier ? Traderoutes with Izzie + Mehmed.

There are 24 cities on Justin+Toku+Sal side... which makes traderoutes for 6 cities. We have our own unlimited intercontinental trade routes...

I like the idea of having a dye of our own but maybe it's a cheap way of thinking.

Does that all mean you don't consider taking the 2food city at all ? Or that the dye city would be the 3rd taken ?

Click to expand...

^
Hyde: There are about 30~50 turns to the end after Moai, market need another 10 turns, can the gain from market worth the hammers invested?
Cal: High whip anger, Market will give 3 to 4 happiness and also give more cash than harbor.
Lal: If the raw hammer from Lal is 16, then it need 180/4 = 45 turns to be beneficial. Hardly pays off.
Gonda: I am also in doubt. Gonda has 6 food plus, not bad, plus it will be affected by motherhood issue. Also there are a few forests available.

GA -- Very tricky estimation, the later, the better gain, but the higher risk of wasting the 3rd GA. Your suggestion is also ~T200.

I would not consider more than 3 cities, the 4th city won't pay for itself.

Hum...
Gondar is Zara's horse city. It has access to the grass cow in its 2nd ring, which makes some food surplus... Unluckily, that cow also is in the 2nd ring of Zara's central city and it's likely it will keep control of it for some time... Vassals can't culture pressure us, right, but still.

As I see it, Gondar has 1 grassland farm (+1), 1 tundra horse (-1), the city tile (+2) and coastal tiles (+0).
With the cow, that makes another +2.

Are we talking about the same city ?


Good points about the other cities. Especially the market in Calcutta.
(For Hyde and Lalibela, I'll just trust you. I have a hard time imagining how many turns remain in the game.)

100 turns at the very most IMO.

Any chance that you can put some hammers in Moai in another city than Hyde for failure gold?

Cap Izzy as soon as she will offer, I agree with this.

The rest looks fine.

Rough war plan

5 cats will be promoted to Accuracy and 1 cat will be promoted to CRII for Aksum. Most macemans will be promoted with CR and 1 or 2 with combat and Med.

T190 -- move 2 Macemans back 2W and try to steal Zara's worker on T192 when we DOW, We need 3 turns to remove Gonda's defense so that these 2 macemans can arrive in time.

T192 -- The turn of DOW. Will give techs to Meh to ensure Zara can't bribe him to the war. 2 Galleys will carry 2 cats + 2 macemans to 1E of Gonda. 4 galleys will carry 1 cat + 6 macemans + 1 warrior to 1N of Aksum. 3 cats and the rest macemans will march to Lal from Cal.

T193 -- Revolt Aksum, sacrify cat and then capture Aksum

T195 or 196 -- Capture Gonda and Lal in the same turn. Ask for 10 turns of peace with Meh and then Vassal Zara.

The rest -- ship units to capture Codoba->Madrid->Dye city in order.

Empire management

Tech -- Nat->Compass->Optics->Music->Lib to 1 turn of completion->Astro to 1 turn of completion.

Worker Movement

Will send the worker in Cal to Pat to chop the 2 forests there and cottage the riverside plain tile in Var. The worker in Hyde will finish the cottage and back to mainland.

In Delhi -- Other workers will finish the forest chop in Delhi, finish the Iron mine. cottage the grassland tile, cottage 1 or 2 riverside plain tiles, connect the road network from Madras, Mine and road the silver.

After that, will send 1 worker to farm Bombay and the rest to Cal for the Incense and improvement in Lal.

Any type GP will be saved.

City Build

All new cities will start with Culture->Gra/LH while applies->Forge

T190
Pat(hire 1 Eng), Vij(whip Mace, FP to hill tile), Bombay(takes FP from Vij), Del(Eng to cot)
HM to Cal
Renegotiate with Toku and Meh to get more cash from resource trades

T191
Vij(Mace), Cal(whip Mace), Var(Market)

T192
Cal(Market), Var(HM)

T193
Del(Market), Pat(Market or Moai), Vij(Mace), Var(whip HM), Bang(whip forge, 3rd pop on cot), Bombay(whip Mace)

T194
Bombay(SP), Bang(Market), Var(HM), Vij(whip Mace), HM to Bang

T195
Vij(Mace), Bang(HM), Hyde(whip forge), Convert to Hindu, Lah(whip CH)

T196
Lah(Taj), Hyde(Moai), Bang(whip HM)

T197
Vij(cat), Bang(wealth since we can't build HM under Pacifism and I'd like the overflow to another HM), Madra(Market), Switch to Pacifism, WB CWB, HM to Aksum

T198
Pat(Wealth since a forest chop this turns and I want to save it with OR bonus), Trade away Iron and copper, Vij (5 warriors)

T199
Start a golden age, Pat( hire extra 2 sci and 1 priest)

T200
Lah(wealth), Delhi(Taj)

T201

T202
Switch to OR, Agra(whip forge), Var(HM), Pat(Market, only 1 Eng), Bang(HM)

T203
Vij(cat), Agra(lib), Madras(HM), Var(whip market),

T204
3 HMs to Aksum, Gonda, and Lal, Var(LH), Madras(wealth), Agra(whip lib), Cal(whip market).

@kossin
Hyde will start Moai in T196, we don't have coastal city with strong production to do it, probably Pat.

@BIC
Gonda has 6F plus (2F from city center, 2F from cow, 1F from Grassland farm, 1F from shared lake with Aksum, if it works on horse tile, then it's 5F plus.

Looks like a good plan to me.

If Izzy caps after 2 cities, that's probably fine (like you said initially, and like kossin says now).

All I can say is good luck, and remember to ship the spy

I'll be off now, but will hopefully be able to check on progress sometime today or tomorrow. Will be back on Sunday.

I don't think I'll run a test... I trust your whip timings are excellent and that's about all I'd have to check.
--> Your plan looks good, Duckweed.

Minor thing :

Duckweed said:

Worker Movement
In Delhi -- Other workers will finish the forest chop in Delhi, finish the Iron mine. cottage the grassland tile, cottage 1 or 2 riverside plain tiles, connect the road network from Madras, Mine and road the silver.

Click to expand...

Maybe that's the way you intended it : I think we should cottage the grassland before mining the iron.
Delhi will grow to size 13 soon and at that moment, it will be able to work the cottage (except if you think that working 0F4H is better... but then we shouldn't even bother cottaging... rather hire GA specialists, no ?).

Duckweed said:

@BIC
Gonda has 6F plus (2F from city center, 2F from cow, 1F from Grassland farm, 1F from shared lake with Aksum, if it works on horse tile, then it's 5F plus.

Click to expand...

Right, I forgot about the lake tile while counting the horse. Sorry for the confusion.
It seems you keep correcting me

@BIC
Yes, you are right, will send the 2 FWs to cottage the grassland after chop, also, will try to hire an Engineer to increase the odd of GE if the GP next is not GE.

@ Duck:

During t192-196:

How to ensure Zara won't bride Meh into war by accepting being his vassal? (his power will soon below 1/3 of that of Meh after the war break out)

If you aim to give Meh some techs first to avoid being DoWed by him, you have the possibility to bride him to DoW Saladin by gifting away techs. That's a solution once and for all. Even now giving him CS+anther tech can do it, the bargain will be even cheaper after you DoW Zara, so I don't minding giving him a bit more to ensure the war success for 100%. After all, Meh's tech speed or power is irrelevant to our victory.

About building: between Market and Harbor.

Under 60%-70% slider, market can bring 3-6 gold in most of commerce cities and Harbor can give 4-6 commerce. In terms of value for hammers, market hasn't much advantage, if there is any. Moreover, the slider can be higher in real game so the output of market can be lower.

Some cities need happiness from Market for sure, but vassaling Zara+Izzy gives already another 5 happiness (Ivory+Dye+Whale+2 vassal, silk is soon available as well) so happiness is not that lacking actually.

^
Zara won't capitulate to Meh with the loss of his capital in T193 and I will time to capture Lal and Gonda in the same turn to ensure that Zara's power won't go down too much.

Harbor gives 4C to international trade route and will only give 1C to domestic trade route (Delhi). Assume that we are going to run GAs for most of the rest game. Take Cal for example, at size 10, Cal has 12C from trade route + 2C from city center + 2C from Horse + 2*(0 from Farm) + 7*(3C from coastal tiles after Astro) = 37C, so the gain from a market is 0.6*0.25*37=5.45C and this value will go up when the city grows bigger. Our cities will grow constantly after this war. Cal will have 8 whipping angers after my set, hence happiness > health. I'm pretty sure that market is necessary for happiness in cities like Cal, while health is not. Commerce is not important after we researched Mass Media, which will be 800AD~900AD. We care for population at the end. Harbor is also useful eventually, the question is will it pay off before 800AD~900AD? I don't mind to build it if you can give a evaluation.