SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

This is not so bad as it might seem. We can bribe Mehmed II to make Peace. However, I'd prefer to let the War take its Course and worst Case give Isabella one of our Cities that isn't Worth too much, before she is completely eliminated. If Mehmed II does eliminate Isabella from "his" Continent, there may be a good chance that his Population will exceed Justinian I's and Mehmed II would become our TUN Opponent.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 475 AD to 535 AD:

Turn 205, 475 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 205, 475 AD: You have trained a Spearman in OasisWheat. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.
Turn 205, 475 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 206, 490 AD: Leaders of Hinduism have a vision of uniting all Hindu faithful under the The Apostolic Palace.
Turn 206, 490 AD: Saladin has completed The Apostolic Palace!

Turn 207, 505 AD: OasisWheat has grown to size 5.
Turn 207, 505 AD: HorseCopper has grown to size 8.
Turn 207, 505 AD: HorseCopper can hurry Forge for 2? with 28? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 207, 505 AD: ThreeClams has grown to size 8.
Turn 207, 505 AD: ThreeClams can hurry Forge for 4? with 15? overflow and +1? for 41 turns.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Zara Yaqob has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Justinian I has 1 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Mehmed II has 1 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 207, 505 AD: PigFish will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 207, 505 AD: You have constructed a Forge in HorseCopper. Work has now begun on The Sistine Chapel.
Turn 207, 505 AD: Cao Cao (Great General) has been born in Istanbul (Mehmed II)!
Turn 207, 505 AD: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Apostolic Palace Election (Winner Proposes Apostolic Palace Resolutions) (Requires 69 of 174 Total Votes)

Turn 208, 520 AD: PigFish has grown to size 8.
Turn 208, 520 AD: PigFish can hurry Forge for 4? with 30? overflow and +1? for 60 turns.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Saladin has 30 gold available for trade.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Isabella has 2 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Saladin has 1 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Capital.
Turn 208, 520 AD: RiceMarble will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 208, 520 AD: Madrid (Isabella) has been captured by the Ottoman Empire!!!

Turn 209, 535 AD: RiceMarble has grown to size 7.
Turn 209, 535 AD: Saladin is the worst enemy of Mehmed II.
Turn 209, 535 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Capital.
Turn 209, 535 AD: Capital will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 209, 535 AD: OasisWheat will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 209, 535 AD: CrabTown will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

Autolog.txt file:


Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 205/750 (475 AD) [30-Jun-2010 21:20:00]
Research begun: Printing Press (9 Turns)
HorseCopper begins: Forge (15 turns)
Capital begins: Forge (12 turns)
PigFish begins: Forge (45 turns)
ThreeClams begins: Forge (26 turns)
100% Research: 383 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
0% Gold: -61 per turn, 76 in the bank

After End Turn:
OasisWheat finishes: Spearman
PigFish grows to size 7
RiceMarble grows to size 6
RiceMarble finishes: Harbor

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 206/750 (490 AD) [01-Jul-2010 00:34:05]
RiceMarble begins: Forge (60 turns)
0% Research: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
100% Gold: 100 per turn, 15 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in CrabTown
OasisWheat grows to size 5
HorseCopper grows to size 8
ThreeClams grows to size 8

Turn 207/750 (505 AD) [01-Jul-2010 00:54:05]
100% Research: 401 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
0% Gold: -65 per turn, 115 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in HorseCopper
HorseCopper finishes: Forge
PigFish grows to size 8

Turn 208/750 (520 AD) [01-Jul-2010 01:23:21]
Diplomacy (War Request): Mehmed II (Ottomans) asks Gandhi (India) to declare war on Isabella (Spain); Gandhi REFUSES.
A Mine was built near SilverWhale
0% Research: 61 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
100% Gold: 100 per turn, 50 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in PigFish
RiceMarble grows to size 7

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Isabella (Spain) towards Saladin (Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 209/750 (535 AD) [01-Jul-2010 01:46:51]
HorseCopper begins: Longbowman (3 turns)

Notice that we now have a Hindu TAP. We voted for Saladin for TAP Resident and we now have a +2 You Voted For Us Diplomatic bonus. I'm hoping for a productive Technology trading partnership with Saladin, although he is now researching Divine Right.

After we discuss and agree on how to keep Isabella in the Game, I plan to Play 5 more turns to finish up my 15 turn TS.

Sun Tzu Wu

Does Mehmed have Feudalism? Can he vassalize Isabella?

If not, and they end their war, how easily could we vassalize Isabella??

What would be the cost for bribing Mehmed to peace? I am not sure we want to do that, since he could re-declare again later. But it is a possibility to be considered.

Nice diplo work voting for Saladin -- +2 is a very nice gain in our relations. Does either of Zara or Isabella have Hinduism in any of their cities? If not, and they continue to run Theocracy, we should be safe from Saladin sneaking in an AP diplo victory.

Unfortunate -- but not surprising -- that Mehmed again requested we join his war on Isabella. Not much we could do there. I am hopeful that Isabella will vassalize to someone -- Mehmed, Zara, even Saladin since she is now Pleased with him. We should work on getting a unit over there (maybe a chariot?) to keep a close eye on the fighting, in case we do need to make an emergency intervention of some kind.

I am not that worried about the Great Library's beakers, as much as about the GPP. Although a lot depends on whether we expect to get another GP from HorseCopper.

ianw1610 said:

Does Mehmed have Feudalism? Can he vassalize Isabella?

Click to expand...

Mehmed II does NOT have Feudalism. Thus he can't vassalize Isabella.

ianw1610 said:

If not, and they end their war, how easily could we vassalize Isabella??

Click to expand...

The balloon text over Isabella's Red Vassal action in her trading screen says:

We're Doing Fine on Our Own.

She might reconsider after she either loses another City and/or we build a few more military units.

Of course they would either need to end their War of their own volition, or we would need to bribe Mehmed II to make Peace. Then we may have a chance to vassalize her.

haphazard1 said:

What would be the cost for bribing Mehmed to peace? I am not sure we want to do that, since he could re-declare again later. But it is a possibility to be considered.

Click to expand...

Mehmed II will trade Peace with Isabella + World Map for Aesthetics. However, Mehmed II is the worst enemy of Saladin (as well as Isabella) and would probably get a -1 Diplomatic penalty with Saladin for trading with Mehmed II.

haphazard1 said:

Nice diplo work voting for Saladin -- +2 is a very nice gain in our relations. Does either of Zara or Isabella have Hinduism in any of their cities? If not, and they continue to run Theocracy, we should be safe from Saladin sneaking in an AP diplo victory.

Click to expand...

No, Zara Yaqob, Isabella and also Mehmed II do not have Hinduism yet. Also, Justinian I is extremely unlikely to vote for Saladin given the Religious tension between them. As long as only Tokugawa and Saladin share Hinduism, Saladin will almost certainly never Win a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory resolution, since all the AI Leaders will have State Religions in conflict with TAP's and Saladin's Hinduism.

haphazard1 said:

Unfortunate -- but not surprising -- that Mehmed again requested we join his war on Isabella. Not much we could do there. I am hopeful that Isabella will vassalize to someone -- Mehmed, Zara, even Saladin since she is now Pleased with him. We should work on getting a unit over there (maybe a chariot?) to keep a close eye on the fighting, in case we do need to make an emergency intervention of some kind.

Click to expand...

It's only a -1 Diplomatics penalty and the penalties for agreeing, especially losing one of our permitted DoWs may have been unspeakably painful in comparison.

haphazard1 said:

I am not that worried about the Great Library's beakers, as much as about the GPP. Although a lot depends on whether we expect to get another GP from HorseCopper.

Click to expand...

After Scientific Method we lose the two free Scientists, but retain the Great Wonder's +2 GSpt. So we will lose both Beakers (12 Bpt) and GS points (6 GSpt).

Right now, Isabella has no Worst Enemy. We could give her Iron and Machinery (Crossbowmen) without penalty (or Reward). Just that much could slow down Mehmed II from taking Isabella's remaining Cities.

We should also consider giving Tokugawa Civil Service (Samurai). He just might be able to take a few Cities from Justinian I with enough Samurai.

=== Plan for next 5t Turns ===

Given that there isn't much we can do right now, I'd like to finish my 15 turn set (5t to go). I will probably proceed in 1-2 hours from now (01:35 UTC), beginning with giving Isabella Iron and Machinery (again Diplomatic penalty free).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

=== Plan for next 5t Turns ===

Given that there isn't much we can do right now, I'd like to finish my 15 turn set (5t to go). I will probably proceed in 1-2 hours from now (01:35 UTC), beginning with giving Isabella Iron and Machinery (again Diplomatic penalty free).

Click to expand...

OK, I'm continuing the final 5t of my turn set. I will give Isabella Iron and Machinery immediately. Then proceed with the plan as amended after 6t and now after 10t.

Sun Tzu Wu

Devil's Gate is a 9P Barbarian City SW of Justinian I. It had an Axeman CR1, Axeman, and Archer CG1 in it. One of its Axemen heavily damaged our Axeman and its Archer finished him off.

We need a moderate sized stack to take that City. Something like 4 Macemen and 2 Catapults. Or 4 Knights and 2 Catapults, if an AI Leader trades us Guilds soon.

Justinian I will trade Optics + World Map for Civil Service. I was hoping some other AI Leader would trade us Optics, but that would have to be Tokugawa, because Zara Yaqob is researching Engineering and Saladin is researching Divine Right. Mehmed II and Isabella are still fighting each other, so they aren't Researching much ...

Here is your Session Turn Log from 535 AD to 610 AD:

Turn 209, 535 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Capital. Work has now begun on The Hagia Sophia.
Turn 209, 535 AD: Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) has been born in Osaka (Tokugawa)!
Turn 209, 535 AD: Justinian I has completed The Colossus!
Turn 209, 535 AD: John D. Rockefeller (Great Merchant) has been born in Constantinople (Justinian I)!

Turn 211, 565 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in HorseCopper. Work has now begun on The Sistine Chapel.
Turn 211, 565 AD: Tokugawa has completed The Hagia Sophia!
Turn 211, 565 AD: Saladin adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 212, 580 AD: CrabTown can hurry Granary for 1? with 5? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 212, 580 AD: Saladin has 120 gold available for trade.
Turn 212, 580 AD: PigFish will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 212, 580 AD: DeerFish will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 212, 580 AD: Capital can no longer work on The Hagia Sophia. The lost ? is converted into 292?!
Turn 212, 580 AD: You have constructed a Forge in PigFish. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 212, 580 AD: You have constructed a Forge in ThreeClams. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) (5.50)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 212, 580 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 212, 580 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 212, 580 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 212, 580 AD: While defending, your Mohammad Azharuddin has killed a Barbarian Axeman!
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) (1.32)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 212, 580 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) is hit for 18 (6/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 212, 580 AD: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Gandhi's Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman)!
Turn 212, 580 AD: While defending, your Mohammad Azharuddin was destroyed by a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 213, 595 AD: Capital can hurry Christian Monastery for 1? with 18? overflow and +1? for 26 turns.
Turn 213, 595 AD: OasisWheat can hurry Forge for 3? with 22? overflow and +1? for 21 turns.
Turn 213, 595 AD: DeerFish has grown to size 2.
Turn 213, 595 AD: Tokugawa has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 213, 595 AD: Tokugawa has 1 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 213, 595 AD: The borders of HorseCopper are about to expand.
Turn 213, 595 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for HorseCopper.
Turn 213, 595 AD: RiceMarble will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 213, 595 AD: The borders of HorseCopper have expanded!

Turn 214, 610 AD: PigFish can hurry Harbor for 2? with 8? overflow and +1? for 69 turns.
Turn 214, 610 AD: RiceMarble has grown to size 9.
Turn 214, 610 AD: Mehmed II has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 610 AD: Zara Yaqob has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 214, 610 AD: Zara Yaqob has 2 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 214, 610 AD: Mehmed II will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 214, 610 AD: Zara Yaqob will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 214, 610 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for CrabTown.
Turn 214, 610 AD: PigFish will grow to size 8 on the next turn.

autolog.txt file:


Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 209/750 (535 AD) [01-Jul-2010 22:23:41]
Tech traded to Isabella (Spain): Machinery
100% Research: 415 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
0% Gold: -64 per turn, 150 in the bank

After End Turn:
Capital grows to size 11
Capital finishes: Forge
OasisWheat grows to size 6
PigFish grows to size 9
CrabTown grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Mehmed II (Ottomans) towards Isabella (Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 210/750 (550 AD) [01-Jul-2010 22:42:05]
100% Research: 421 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
0% Gold: -68 per turn, 86 in the bank

After End Turn:
HorseCopper grows to size 7
RiceMarble grows to size 8
ThreeClams grows to size 9

Turn 211/750 (565 AD) [01-Jul-2010 23:22:26]
Mohammad Azharuddin (Axeman) promoted: Combat I
0% Research: 75 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
100% Gold: 97 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:
OasisWheat finishes: Longbowman
HorseCopper finishes: Longbowman

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'

Turn 212/750 (580 AD) [01-Jul-2010 23:38:42]
OasisWheat begins: Forge (17 turns)
Capital begins: Christian Monastery (5 turns)
HorseCopper begins: Courthouse (11 turns)
Capital begins: The Sistine Chapel (26 turns)
HorseCopper begins: The Sistine Chapel (23 turns)
100% Research: 409 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
0% Gold: -66 per turn, 115 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in PigFish
The whip was applied in ThreeClams
The whip was applied in CrabTown
PigFish grows to size 7
PigFish finishes: Forge
ThreeClams grows to size 6
ThreeClams finishes: Forge
CrabTown finishes: Granary
DeerFish grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Barbarian territory at DevilsGate, Mohammad Azharuddin (1.20/5) defeats Barbarian Axeman (Prob Victory: 67.8%)
While defending in Barbarian territory at DevilsGate, Mohammad Azharuddin loses to Barbarian Archer (3.00/3) (Prob Victory: 0.6%)

Turn 213/750 (595 AD) [02-Jul-2010 00:58:41]
CrabTown begins: Lighthouse (45 turns)
100% Research: 413 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
0% Gold: -65 per turn, 341 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in OasisWheat
OasisWheat grows to size 4
OasisWheat finishes: Forge
HorseCopper's borders expand
RiceMarble grows to size 9

Turn 214/750 (610 AD) [02-Jul-2010 01:41:21]
Diplomacy: Mehmed II (Ottomans) offers to trade Horseback Riding to Gandhi (India) for Theology
OasisWheat begins: Maceman (15 turns)
RiceMarble begins: Galley (19 turns)
A Mine was built near SilverWhale

Sun Tzu Wu

Still no sign of the Fur!! So either it is in the fogged lands to the south of DevilsGate, or DevilsGate is a big red herring and the Fur is in the unexplored ocean...

I have a question - can one of you please answer... If we were to settle a new city 3E of DevilsGate and immediately culture-bomb our existing Great Artist there, what would happen? Would DevilsGate flip to us???

Either way, we need at least 4 Macemen and 2 Catapults right away, to fight those Barbs. Also, there may be other Barb cities in the fogged area to the south of DevilsGate.

We need Optics now, so I would trade Civil Service to Justinian for Optics + World Map. After Printing Press I would research Astronomy, and then Liberalism (but stop Liberalism 1 turn before completion and switch to SciMeth).

For a little bit of extra commerce, we may want to sell our surplus Silver to Zara for 2 GPT.

I think JerichoHill is on vacation until Sunday, so I suggest Mighty Dwaarf takes the next turnset, and then JerichoHill can take the turnset after that - let me know if there are any objections with that!

The swap sounds good to me, ianw1610, assuming Mighty Dwaarf is available. We still have some time, but we do need to keep moving the game forward if we are going to finish on time.

I agree that we should take the CS for Optics/Map trade with Justinian. We can get a few caravels out ASAP to start exploring the oceans in case Devil's Gate is a red herring. How far along are we on Printing Press? We may want to switch to Astronomy immediately so we will be able to build galleons and also observatories. Losing our monuments will not be a big issue, although CrabTown will need some culture source to make sure it does not lose the crab tile again, and we do not own Stonehenge or the Colossus. The observatories alone make the tech worthwhile, more than any benefit we will get from having Printing Press a few turns sooner.

Galleons will also make it a lot easier to send troops to Devil's Gate -- 3 cargo per ship and much faster movement. I will check the save once I get home from work -- does Devil's Gate have popped borders? If so, it has some culture and might not flip to us even with an artist bomb. Although it might -- barb cities rarely have a lot of culture, normally. But if this was created by the map maker (and from the name it was) then it could have almost anything inside. A zoomed-in close up of the city may reveal useful information.

What else was visible before our axe died? From the name I am guessing there is a line of mountains and the city is the only way through? If true, then no paratroopers would be required, at least to get past that barrier. But I think we should build those caravels, just in case the whole setup is a fake.

We are only 2 turns from completing Printing Press, so it will be worthwhile to do that.

It is not clear if DevilsGate is the only Barb city on that land-mass, or if there are others to the South, because the Ice and Mountains are blocking the view of the southern part of the landmass.

ianw1610 said:

It is not clear if DevilsGate is the only Barb city on that land-mass, or if there are others to the South, because the Ice and Mountains are blocking the view of the southern part of the landmass.

Click to expand...

I do not believe that DevilsGate is a Red Herring; I think its worse than that ...

To me, DevilsGate is a clue from the Map Maker that this is the start of an extremely long traversal over Land and maybe even Sea to where the Fur Tile is located. I wish we had Guilds, so we could build several Knights which can move twice as fast towards the Fur, hopefully. ICBMs would be quicker than Catapults though

I agree that we should make the trade with Justinian of Optics + World Map for Civil Service (be sure that's done this turn to avoid the chance he's researching Civil Service and won't agreed to the trade. Maybe Justinian has already a few Caravels exploring some Ocean areas that would be revealed by the World Map he trades to us.

Sun Tzu Wu

We can see some barb cultural borders to the SE of Devils gate. When we move in on the city we should probably take along some defensive troops too as I imagine whatever barb city is down there it will have troops to counter attack.
I think we should finish PP as Ian says only 2 turns left and then should go straight to Astro to gain access to Galleons and Observatories. We should probably prebuild another couple of galleys to upgrade to Galleons. I'll look later to provide more detailed plan for next 10 turns.

Team,

I am back in the USA! USA! USA! WOOT! England is awesome though.

Please insert me into the rotation. I'll get caught up tomorrow

JerichoHill said:

Team,

I am back in the USA! USA! USA! WOOT! England is awesome though.

Please insert me into the rotation. I'll get caught up tomorrow

Click to expand...

I'm glad you enjoyed your time here! The weather here has been great for a few weeks as well (it usually rains much more - especially in the "summertime"!!)

Mighty Dwaarf will play the next turnset, then you can play the turnset after that.

Welcome back, JerichoHill! Sounds like you had a good time.

I agree with Mighty Dwaarf that we need to include defensive troops in our upcoming expedition to the barb lands. If Sun Tzu Wu is correct and we need to fight our way through a series of barb cities, we will probably have to send additional shipments of troops to support a continuing offensive. We should be prepared for tough resistance and counter-attacks.

I would like to get a couple caravels out and exploring the general ocean, just in case there is some kind of deception going on with Devil's Gate. If we get them out promptly we should only need a couple.

Finishing Printing Press and then on to Astronomy sounds good to me. Observatories will be very helpful, and galleons will be faster and carry more troops than galleys. Not to mention being tough enough that barb galleys will be only a minimal threat.

We have about 50 days remaining to the deadline, so let's get the next turnset plan out and keep the game moving.

So we need two more cargo boats and 9 troops for expeditionary force. But what do we want the make up to be CR maces for taking cities, cats for softening up defenses LBs for defending DG, xbow?? better defensively against axes?? 3 Maces, 3 cats, 2Lbs and Xbow??

We really only have 3 productive cities and one of these is tied up with Sistine, so we may have to stay in slavery for a bit. Capital can take Maces, OW can take other smaller units, once Sistine out of the way HC can fill gaps. Rice Marble can build 1 galley in turnset and pig fish the other (whip can be aplied if required)

So Cap finish monastry then Maces
OW Cats
HC finish SC (we can put in Hindu Temple, this will take four turns but the extra hammers will save 3 on SC so only lose 1 turn and will have AP temple)
Pig Fish change to galley whip when appropriate keeping eng and 2*scis
RM galley after forge
3 Clams finish harbour then fill in other units needed with whip help.

Other sites need to get up infrastructure as soon as poss.

Will trade for Optics as suggested and take extra 2gpt off Zara, finish PP and then onto Astro unless anyone makes any serious gain towards libralism.

Diplo => I assume we are accepting all requests except war requests and none from Mehmed. If the war between Izzy and Mehmed continues I like the idea of gifting one of our cities to her to keep her alive. This would also give him the continent to himself which hopeful he can grow on. Out of our current cities I would favour giving her Crab town. If we lose that crab it is not going to be a good city to be honest even with the crab its pretty pants.

Once we have decentish army and sorted out the devil gate situation and less need for whip hammers we can go to caste. I understand the need to explore but due hammer poor ports I think we should put our boats to transporting troops to Devils gate, better to get a handle on the situation we know of sooner rather than later.

Presumption: Galleys can be used as ferries between Continents:

Thus we need 1-2 Galleys (2nd as spare) between Justinian I and the Barbarian island; 1 Galley between us and Saladin; 1 Galley between Zara Yaqob and Isabella.

After Engineering, all land units can travel just as fast over land as Galleys can travel over Sea. Even before Engineering, we can't afford to built as many Galleys as we would need for an all naval route to the Barbarian Island.

Military Stack Composition:

Barbarian unit composition often is Archers, Axemen and Spearmen (I saw only 2 Axemen and 1 Archer in DevilsGate).

The best unit we can build to kill these units are Macemen; Two Combat I, Shock (Attacks vs. Wild); Two City Raider II (Attacks vs. Cities). Crossbowmen can be effective against primarily Axemen, but they can't utilize City Raider promotions; Crossbowmen promotion Combat I, Shock.

The best unit we can build to defend Cities against these Barbarian units (Archers, Axemen and Spearmen) are Longbowmen and to a lesser extent Crossbowmen; Promotions can Guerilla II (Hill City) or City Garrison II (Level City). Crossbowmen Combat I, Shock are extremely good at defending Cities and Stacks against Melee units.

Actual Composition:

1) Include two already made Longbowmen.
2) Include two already made Chariots (optionally upgraded to Horse Archers after Researching 1t of Horseback Riding or trading it).
3) Optionally build two War Elephants, assuming we get Horseback Riding
4) Build four Macemen
5) Build two or more Catapults
6) Build two Crossbowmen
7) Build one (or two) Galleys

At the very minimum, we need to build four Maceman and one Galley. The four Macemen will be added to the two Longbowmen and two Chariots we already have. Two Catapults can be built to reduce fortifications on the turn the attack commences. The two Catapults will help ensure the success of the campaign, so waiting until they are completed is worthwhile.

We should adopt Vassalage on the turn before the first of these units is completed. Each City should pre-build a Maceman and Catapult or a Macemen and Galley or a Maceman and Crossbowman. Our heavy Hammer Cities could prebuild a Maceman, Catapult, Crossbowman, and Longbowman. All units of our Barbarian Campaign Stack can be completed inside the 5 turns we will be in Vassalage for the extra 2 Experience Points; Up to five prebuilt units of different types can be completed in five turns in each City.

Sun Tzu Wu

I would normally promote xbows on the drill promotion line. They can often defend against multiple attacks from axemen/swords each turn. I find these better in the wild than shock promoted maces, prefering to keep maces CR promoted for city attacks. I like the idea of moving over land via Ai lands especially if we can get Guilds for knights.

Drill crossbows are awesome defenders against melee attackers (axes, spears) and even archers but horse archers will murder them, should have an elephant or spear along just in case there are mounted barb units.

If (when?) the Justinian/Tokugawa war breaks out, will we be able to move our troops through by land? Or should we plan for moving them entirely by ship? Once we complete Astronomy, we can transport by galleons at a very good movement rate.

Astronomy will also help with observatories allowing a third scientist, since we do not seem likely to actually adopt Caste any time soon.

On military, let's not leave our homeland completely without advanced troops. And I agree with Ozbenno that if we promote drill we must have some spears with our army to prevent horse archers from slaughtering our drill units.

haphazard1 said:

... And I agree with Ozbenno that if we promote drill we must have some spears with our army to prevent horse archers from slaughtering our drill units.

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War Elephants are better than Spearman in defending a stack from Chariots and Horse Archers. As I noted before, we need only research Horseback Riding for 1t to complete it or we can get it in trade (but the closer value trades are via Mehmed II and we would get Diplomatic negatives from others, so researching it seems the best option). I suggest we complete Horseback Riding between Printing Press and Astronomy.

Sun Tzu Wu