SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

@kossin

I actually already answered your question.

Duckweed said:

What if Zhou includes FUR in BFC? With a few cottages, it can pay for itself with those cottages and will gain after CH whipped. Creating a colony enable 2 trade routes. I won't raze those cities.

Click to expand...

Assume Zhou at size 6, here's the detailed budget from Bugg123's screen shot

Maintenance fee -- ~20g

Commerce --
1. 6C domestic trade routes from Delhi and Pat
2. 2C from city center
3. 10C from 2 villages seen
4. 6~10C from 2 uncovered hamlets or villages
5. 3C from clam

Total = 27 ~31 C (more if we work on FUR tile if it's there)

Hammers = 7H (2H from city center tile + 5H from iron)

No doubt it's already a gain even without CH.

There's more benefits

1. Zhou add land, power and pop to our empire.
2. We don't need to pay the away units fee for (4 warriors + GPs)
3. There's a chance of free spreading of religion to the barbarian colony. Even not, HM is still not an issue since we can produce a HM under OR from Zhou or any other cities such as Madrid or Cordoba after MM researched.

@Bugg123
We have to clearly determine the plan of GP production -- number and location. If we let Pat grow before Pacifism and hire specialists after Pacifism, Can it produce a GP and reach size 20 in time? I fell it's really a waste of not producing 1 GP from Pat.

Sure, we can keep Zhou as it is coastal with GLH.

But liberating a weak civilization is a bad move when trying to vassal Mehmed -> 1 more turn of drafting.

The extra upkeep is negligible (it's like 0.02 per city).

We can't rely on hoping for a free religion spread. Sure if it works we're happy but we need to plan a religion spread in any case.

I'm fine with keeping all cities there and spreading religion though. Devilsgate has enough food to whip a CH and run some specialists. >>> Build a fort on the coast to avoid wasting an extra settler (we might just need an extra settler for all we know anyway). (Do build the settler though).

More observations:

-trade maps with Saladin, Justinian and anyone not called Mehmed. It might or not gain us some map knowledge that could be useful

-I don't like the Market in Calcutta
It completes on t215.
We turn research on t212 so its contribution to gold = 0 until we run some merchants there (.75 gold per merchant so 4 merchants = 3 gold per turn)
We can build 2 temples for half the price for happiness (which we may not even need -> in dingding's 990AD save there is 7 happy cap left, minus 4 is 3) The saved hammers can be used on wealth and the saved citizens as specialists or full-powered coastal tiles.
Even if we want to run merchants it will take longer than 20 turns to pay back as we will have more merchants under caste, and also earlier, than if we whip for a market.
->don't build a market there.
If we build anything there, a Library is the best option. We can simply use it as a missionary farm too.

I would have said the same of Bangalore but the Market is already started so it's fine.

-don't build too many Horse Archers
While they are fast reinforcements, they're close to useless. More War Elephants instead to raise our power at the best ratio available.

-send the spy SW as first move to see across the lake (but you probably knew this, just saying)

I'll run a test or 2 with any final notes I may come across.

As Bugg said, we should sell techs for cash with anyone not labeled as Saladin's Worst Enemy.

@kossin:

I'm ok with the "keep everything" and build a fort plan.

We're currently building 4-5HA waiting for Physics (at least they are efficient at attacking cats ). They also get to the front relatively quickly and can somewhat help out (where WE's "only" add power)

Will look at another test tonight as well... I'm hoping we can aggree today, so I can play tomorrow (I have the day off )

I'm currently revising the plan while trying it out.

I will move the fur a bit to a 3rd city to double-check that we have sufficient time and that it doesn't mess with research too much.

This will most likely the hardest set in the whole game so my hat off to you, sir!

A few more thoughts: raise the global power by gifting techs that add power to Izzy and Zara (Machinery, Compass are the ones they're missing I think)

@kossin:

Yeah.. it's a pretty complicated set. I was about to start a final test, but I guess I might as well await your post. There's good reason to spend time on this one.

We're definately handing Izzy and Zara those techs, but there's no real reason to do so right away (I'd rather get 50-100+ gold for them from them).

In the plan I posted a good while ago, there's no merchants etc. assigned. The plan won't be 100% accurate regardless, since the testgame can never be accurate at this point.

Current plan has Scientists in Delhi (delaying Taj 2 turns) to improve odds on GS. It also has mass merchants from T212-214 in most other mainland cities. Coupled with a bit of gold from trades, I think we're good through MM.

Concerning settling barb continent. If we're building a fort, there's no problem getting fur online anywhere on the island (unless there happens to be an even worse barb-settlement that needs to be taken out further inland on the island).

The GP situation that duckweed wants clarified I'm not sure about. The timing of growing Pata AND producing a GP on time is a bit hard to predict (for me). It should be ok, but the key point is to get Pata to 20 (which shouldn't be a problem by 870-890AD). The GP may not be needed.

For me Delhi produces 3-4 GP (hopefully 2 GS), Madras 1, Physics 1 and we have a GS, GE and GG waiting (=8-9 total). We're spending 3-4 GS and a GE. So we should be covered regardless. If we get another GG, we're covered for sure regardless. Will see if I can sneak one more out of Pata (Timing is Delhi, Delhi, Madras, Delhi, Delhi/Pata imo).

Every turn
Check Patali: if possible assign tiles to grow 1 turn earlier then remove Engineer
Check gold and resource trades. Anything over 10 gold can be gotten with map trades, begs, cheap techs, etc.
Agree with every Saladin demand (maybe except gold begging?)

t206
Send 3~4 workers to farm up Patali ASAP
Don't work an engineer in Delhi (the game is set up fine, work a scientist if not a cottage or 4H tile - it will grow sooner though)
Delete all spies but Fur island one
No need for the chariot exploring I would think, WIII warrior should do fine by himself

t207
Whenever Delhi grows, assign another scientist. Taj will finish soon enough anyway.

t208
*If agreed to skip Market in Calcutta, just make another HM. Can't have too many of them.

t209
Let Pati grow ad lib while starting Harbor (this turn or next, depending on growth)
If you plan on any 2-pop whip of missionaries, keep in mind to not add any more than 4 hammers in Calcutta

t210
Can we delay whip of University 1 turn?
As I said earlier, let grow Agras and Lahore as much as possible as we will decimate them with drafting before gifting to Saladin (removes -1 for close borders).

t211
Cordoba: CH, no Forge at all
Aksum: I see no benefit for a Market. 2 Temples will do the job if even those are needed.
If you disrupt the galley-chain slightly, you can unload the HM in Madrid allowing a spread the same turn we whip the Forge, gaining 33H. All it does is slightly delay the next shipment by 1 turn (which is marginal)

t213
Barcelona takes unused tiles by Madrid

t214
Cordoba whips CH
Barcelona whips CH


First 2 GPs should come from Delhi... Madras is just too slow. This is the only way we can hope for a GS before Electricity is done I think.

The only alternative I can come up with is using Aksum as a GP farm and not whipping it to hell like we are doing now.

>>> Use several scientists in Delhi
Madras mass merchants

I played from 490AD... my results:

-no further GS (a GE and a GA!) in time - bad luck I know
-Patali can't provide a GP and grow to 20 at the same time (I got it to size 20 on t228 after that ran mass merchants)
-with only 2 bulbs (1 GS we had on Physics, 1 Electricity from free GS) I managed to get Mass Media on t233 (880AD) despite running out of gold for 1 turn (need better planning of mass merchants while in Caste vs more food under slavery):
The key is to starve down cities to get just enough research while massing merchants. Coast, farms... everything as merchants under Caste.
-even with mass starving and drafting (I saw no need to whip WEs), we have way enough votes
-with a 3rd bulb we can certainly shave 3 more turns with starving
-Agra can be drafted 4 times if we skip the University, Lahore 6 times. We gift them to Saladin afterwards
-keeping the cities on Fur island is well, except timing the whipping of CH which didn't work out so well in my test (didn't plan it out) -> even when adding a 3rd city for the Fur, we can delay its founding until required with the settler (a fort works perfectly)
-After building UN, the next vote is in 8 turns after the completion (MM date+1), meaning the result is 1 turn later so win comes exactly 10 turns after MM
-we have to be careful of Diplo with Saladin and beware of hidden modifiers especially
I think it is safer for us to grow Patali to size 21 to be able to whip UN under Theocracy (or we could already be in Theocracy)
Any refused demand (gold) could threaten our chance to win.

-Duckweed said it earlier but we should stop the war between Toku/Justinian before cities change hands

-Another possibility with the next GP:
GS: bulb
GM: trade mission
GE: rush Moai statues in Madras, then let them complete in Hyderabad (might need to delay Moai 1 turn)
This is worth 375 extra gold which is more than the GE would contribute by settling in Delhi

The big problem with the plan right now is deciding where and when to get GPs.

It might not necessarily be a bad idea to split the set up when we switch to Caste. Easier to discuss tile assignments from there?

kossin said:

Sure, we can keep Zhou as it is coastal with GLH.

But liberating a weak civilization is a bad move when trying to vassal Mehmed -> 1 more turn of drafting.

The extra upkeep is negligible (it's like 0.02 per city).

We can't rely on hoping for a free religion spread. Sure if it works we're happy but we need to plan a religion spread in any case.

I'm fine with keeping all cities there and spreading religion though. Devilsgate has enough food to whip a CH and run some specialists. >>> Build a fort on the coast to avoid wasting an extra settler (we might just need an extra settler for all we know anyway). (Do build the settler though).

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that commerce and production do not matter after MM is done. This will answer all your questions.

I don't think there's much problem of getting enough power -- 1 or 2 pop whip every city after MM and this will easily make Meh bend if we still can't at that time. Therefore power is NOT an issue for creating a colony.

As I mentioned, HM is also NOT a problem since they can be produced after MM.

I don't see any good of keeping other cities than Zhou as they won't pay for themselves and 3 cities in that island will increase lots of colony fee.

@ your plan
I agree to skip Market in Cal and Askum and Bangalore as well.

Cordoba should whip Forge and then CH since it can contribute quite a few units afterward. We don't need to run CS in short time.

Temple is not a good choice in any case, I'd rather stop growth than spending hammers on them.

@ Bugg123 and kossin
How many food are short in Pat if you try to get a GP there?

@all:

I'm ok playin untill start of T214. At that time we still won't have captured the barbs, so we can aggree on the keep/no keep while also discussing specialists at that time.

Sure we can skip market in Banga (even though it has hammers invested). Aksoum doesn't have Market planned anymore (if anything we're building temples, maybe, but even that is not needed I think...), Calcutta doesn't need a market either I aggree (and it's allready producing 1 more HM after the current one finishes at some point according to the plan).

When do we stop the toku/just war? Since we have no eyes over there it's hard to tell. We could do right now, or hold off for this turnset entirely....

@kossin:

I assume we're assigning more scientists in Delhi after it grows, as long as Taj is not delayed too much (to disrupt our GAs) even at the expense of commerce/hammers. I'll try the rest of your updates tomorrow and post a final plan up to T214 (with save) so we can get the ball rolling.

about t211 and disrupting galley chain : yeah+not sure it'll delay much of anything. I have a couple of Galleons picking up slack while waiting to ship troops back from barb island (leaving galleys a few turns idle anyways...)

@duckweed:
kossin probably has the numbers on the missing food in Pata. We should grow it to T214 regardless and figure out the specialists before going CS, right?

@Duckweed

I'm just trying to play it safe
Thinking of small things that can help.
A colony on fur island can work, but then we possibly need another settler just to make sure we can get the FUR in a BFC. I know power is enough even when lowering it with a new civ but I figured if we finished the war before MM was over it might provide useful to do it 1 turn faster.

In my test I kept both Devilsgate and Zhou. CH is easy to whip in Devilsgate with 4 pop whip so the cost is pretty small. Zhou gets GLH bonus so is also profitable even without CH. The last city I placed on Fur (moved it further west) after MM was in so the cost wasn't relevant anymore. Trade network was made via a Fort.

Cordoba: we don't really need units from there. The forests around Madrid can provide quite a few (~4) WEs which is what we really need. With 8+ Airships, casualties are close to none as we get 80~90% odds when attacking in cities.
If you want to make WEs from there, then the Forge will not pay itself back before we produce 6 WEs (not gonna happen). (90*.8 = 18 = 1/8 cost of Forge under OR, 6 if you consider hammers saved on whipping CH)
We're just as good producing WEs after the CH.

Food in Patali:
From my most recent test, Patali got to 20 pop 5 turns before Mass Media was done (and that was with no 3rd bulb, meaning we'd only make it 2~3 turns early with another bulb).

My test before that I was short about 30 food. That was with a 3rd bulb with MM on t231.

It might just be doable but I don't see it happening... not a safe bet. Even if we finish it after whipping UN it'll be one hell of a run to get it on the Fur.

@Bugg
It didn't work out in my test but do you manage to spread Hindu in Cordoba for 2-pop whip of LH? If no, then I'd consider relaying HM there rather than Lalibela

@kossin:

Yeah, I think getting the HM to Cordoba before Lali is ok.

I think sending a mace up east (and pick it up with a galleon in time for war) + scout the west with char works out the best. That leaves WIII Warrior to heal units coming from barbs sooner.

Plan untill T214:



2 pointers:

1. Do we move workers to Pati right now(T206), or do we let Delhi worker (at least) finish up his cottage (The cottage probably won't be needed right now). I'm assuming Banga-worker can stop what he's doing and start helping out Pata right away. (Those are not in the plan, but easily adjusted obv).
2. When do we stop the toku-just war? It's hard to tell (the later, the better, I suppose)

Save included

Will check plan later but throwing this out now:

if we get a GE as our next GP then our GP problems are solved: we doble rush UN and Patali spits out a GP easily without needing to grow to size 20.

@kossin:

Good point. In fact, the only thing we really do not want is a Priest, I guess (which is what I'm getting a lot in the tests ). Not really sure we absoultely can use a Merchant either, it depends.

I'm having a hard time spitting out enough GP if we 4x bulb Phy+Electricity (finishing 960 or 970AD). I can't seem to get Pata to produce one untill it's too late (like 910-920AD) after whipping UN.

Ofcourse, all that can be settled after this short turnset, and it'd be nice to know what kind of GP we get, and confirm FUR location by then (hopefully) too.

Fingers crossed for good luck on Hindu spread too, I guess .. do we really need to convert Meh, btw?

A Merchant would allow to save at least 1 turn on MM by running scientists and building research instead.
A GA would suck too although it is less likely.

I don't think we can relyon Patali for a GP, it comes too late as you noted. Madras is a slow alternative and remains Aksum as I suggested. I don't see how we can do 4 bulbs, it would be risky on the timing of our 4th generated GP. With some starvation it could be done, sure - dingding had it done.

We really need to convert Meh at capitulation to give him back his cities without angering Saladin (remove WE status)

IHT
Get the gold from Justinian and Saladin too. Don't worry about Toku, he can't harm us at all. (check every turn for Sal-Just-Toku-Izzy-Zara gold)
Maybe get Archery in one of the deals

Cancel the last cottage in Delhi, it won't be used. At least 4 FW should go irrigate Patali... maybe we can find a way to gain those ~30 food by having farms earlier instead of coast -> there is not much need for any other improvements on the mainland (Incense for example is near useless)

Trade maps

Delete 2 spies on mainland (only keep Fur island one)

Delhi: assign a scientist next turn. Delhi is ahead in food but backwards in hammers in the actual game so we can't assign hammer tiles to specialists. Anyway, do it as you see fit, I'm just saying.

CH in Bangalore: we could 3-whip it next turn, it would be useful for 23~25 turns i.e. 115~125 gold. Or we can save the 3 extra citizens while we wait for Caste (working coast is 4C each that's 96C until t214 and then turn them into Merchants... it will far outweigh a CH) -> Wealth

Calcutta: you need to move the horses to coast this turn to be able to 2-whip in 2 turns (50*1.25=62 -> 2 OF + 2H from city tile = 4 < 5)

T209
Don't allow more than 34 H in the LH if Hindu spread is successful (swap to CH if needed)

~~~

That's all I can think of for now, plan looks good and sound.

I was keeping the 2nd spy untill we're 100% sure we find FUR (if not it'd be easier to pick the one in Aksoum up with caravel and head nort-west (and delete the barb one).

Awaiting a few ok's and will try to play tonight

Plan looks good. Good luck.

kossin said:

We really need to convert Meh at capitulation to give him back his cities without angering Saladin (remove WE status)

Click to expand...

We can give the cities back at the turn of UN vote, where we don't care what Saladin thinks of us.

PS. If pops an Artist, it can serve to accelerate MM (at condition that Drama is obtained by trade or by self-research; at the latter situation, artist brings 1900-700 = 1200 beakers. Better than nothing.)

The worst situation is to bulb a GPriest.

Hmm maybe yes.

While we're at it, we can use the caravel to see across the ice on the western side of the island. In 3~4 turns we should all of the western coast. It's probably worth investigating while the spy focuses on the south/east.

@dingding
Indeed, we can gift back the cities later. It might be simpler to give them back earlier though should we finish Meh earlier than anticipated (before MM is done to avoid money problems).

Interesting note about GA bulbing MM, this is very good news -> we only have to dodge a Prophet as you say.
Drama we will get from Zara who is assigned to research it.

So... we good to go?

@Bugg123
Go ahead. Don't see the necessity of stopping in T214. I'd like to see the finish of this game in 3 sessions hopefully with so many tests done already. we are the 3rd (Edit 2nd) backward in progress although might not that backward to the winning date. I won't have much time lately.

BTW, try to stop the war in 2 or 3 turns since that about the time Toku's SOD reaches the target city and removes defense and attacks. You can even stop the war immediately since they are backward regardless.