Help, what's the logic on what your wise men can research?

Tristan_C · Jun 3, 2009

I was wondering why some research paths simply aren't available, for some reason, at some times, in some games :mad:

I started up a civ today, and I wished to pick up The Wheel near to the beginning (success), then either go for mapmaking or get started towards monarchy. I got mapmaking next, with great satisfaction, too, because I'm figuring out I'm on a pretty small island. There was only 1 rival and I gg'd him with a chariot.

So here's where I stand:

Alphabet (started with it)
The Wheel - first research
Mapmaking - second research
Code of Laws - third research

The pic is my list of new possible paths: masonry, bronze working, pottery. There is no Ceremonial Burial, which was my next target in the line for Monarchy. I reckoned a tech like that, with NO prereqs, would always show up in the list.
So... why do I need to spend the next few hundred years on a tech I don't need yet?

What governs the filtering of techs from this depressingly short list, so I can avoid these setbacks in the future?

Bratmon · Jun 3, 2009

Check your science advisor. Do you already have COL?

void · Jun 3, 2009

Tristan_C said:
I was wondering why some research paths simply aren't available, for some reason, at some times, in some games

Sometimes the game randomly, and intentionally, excludes some techs from the list.

The rationale could be that not every possible advance had occurred to those ancient wisemen as something they might invent. And from a gaming point of view, it adds some variety to the gameplay. (I believe something to this effect is even stated in the manual.)

As far as I recall, Chieftain is an exception, and always lists all techs.

Tristan_C · Jun 3, 2009

Bratmon said:
Check your science advisor. Do you already have COL?

Absolutely, I opted to get code of laws prior before ceremonial burial (force of habit: if the order doesn't matter to you, go for the tech with actual benefits first), and COL was the tech I had just competed when I noticed this issue.

void said:
Sometimes the game randomly, and intentionally, excludes some techs from the list.

The rationale could be that not every possible advance had occurred to those ancient wisemen as something they might invent. And from a gaming point of view, it adds some variety to the gameplay. (I believe something to this effect is even stated in the manual.)

As far as I recall, Chieftain is an exception, and always lists all techs.

Ahhhhh... randomness. I thought I smelled it. :spear:

Urtica dioica · Jun 4, 2009

I did my own research on this several months ago. It's totally not random, but rather similar to the way Civ 2 does it. I'm going mostly from memory, but the procedure is to take a tech's position in the list (below) and wipe out all the indexes with a certain remainder after dividing by 3, just like Civ 2. Unlike Civ 2, the top two possible techs in the list are always available, instead of just the first.

I still have the list. The order makes no sense at all, which helps explain why it might seem random. You can find the list yourself if you look inside the binary CIV.EXE.

Alphabet
Code of Laws
Currency
Atomic Theory
Democracy
Monarchy
Astronomy
MapMaking
Navigation
Mathematics
Medicine
Physics
Engineering
University
Magnetism
Electronics
Masonry
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Bridge Building
Invention
Computers
Writing
Steam Engine
Trade
Ceremonial Burial
Mysticism
Nuclear Fission
Philosophy
Religion
Literacy
Horseback Riding
Feudalism
The Wheel
Gunpowder
Industrialization
Chemistry
Combustion
Flight
Advanced Flight
Space Flight
Mass Production
Pottery
Communism
The Republic
Construction
Rocketry
The Corporation
Metallurgy
RailRoad
Nuclear Power
Theory of Gravity
Steel
Banking
Electricity
Refining
Explosives
SuperConductor
Automobile
Genetic Engineering
Plastics
Recycling
Chivalry
Robotics
Conscription
Labor Union
Fusion Power
Future Tech

Just a quick run through, and it seems, in your game, you're missing 3 techs off the list: Writing, Ceremonial Burial, and Horseback Riding. Assuming Alphabet, at the top, is number 1, then the missing techs are numbers 23, 26, and 32. All three of those numbers have a remainder of 2 when divided by 3. Your list includes Bronze Working and Pottery, neither of which has remainder 2, and Masonry is included anyway because it's the first possible tech on the list.

On your next tech, you can expect techs with remainder zero to disappear, and after that remainder one will disappear. Then the cycle repeats.

C1v1l1z@t10n · Jun 4, 2009

Wow this thread was interesting, but I'm not sure I still understand, the list is different per game or per exe binary?

lndm · Jun 4, 2009

I always thought that the techs weren't available if other civs were researching them at that given moment. You'll see that it happens more if you are slow in advancing and the techs are usually available next time round.

Tristan_C · Jun 4, 2009

Urtica dioica said:
Just a quick run through, and it seems, in your game, you're missing 3 techs off the list: Writing, Ceremonial Burial, and Horseback Riding. Assuming Alphabet, at the top, is number 1, then the missing techs are numbers 23, 26, and 32. All three of those numbers have a remainder of 2 when divided by 3. Your list includes Bronze Working and Pottery, neither of which has remainder 2, and Masonry is included anyway because it's the first possible tech on the list.

On your next tech, you can expect techs with remainder zero to disappear, and after that remainder one will disappear. Then the cycle repeats.

Excellent!!! A very interesting breakdown of this issue. By looking at the list, you can tell it's not totally nonsensical. There is a basic progression from ancient to future tech, but noticeably, the expansive academic techs seem to be bumped upward whilst military objectives (the terminal fruits on the research tree) seem to be lower, thus having a tendency to appear less frequently.

Dack · Jun 5, 2009

Urtica dioica, I am intrigued by your hypothesis.
I ran the following
There are 7 advances that require no previous advance.
01,00,00, Alphabet
17,00,00, Masonry
18,00,00, Bronze Working
26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial
32,00,00, Horseback Riding
34,00,00, The Wheel
43,00,00, Pottery

In a game where Im given no advances at the start Im offered the following:

01,00,00, Alphabet
17,00,00, Masonry
18,00,00, Bronze Working
34,00,00, The Wheel
43,00,00, Pottery

choice 1: Alphabet
after completion (* marks choices offered, no asterisk= advance entitled to but not offered)

02,01,00, Code of Laws *
08,02,00, MapMaking *
17,00,00, Masonry *
18,00,00, Bronze Working
23,01,00, Writing *
26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial *
32,00,00, Horseback Riding *
34,00,00, The Wheel *
43,00,00, Pottery *

choice 2: Code of Laws
after completion

08,02,00, MapMaking *
17,00,00, Masonry *
18,00,00, Bronze Working *
23,01,00, Writing *
26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial *
32,00,00, Horseback Riding *
34,00,00, The Wheel
43,00,00, Pottery

choice 3 map making
after completion
17,00,00, Masonry *
18,00,00, Bronze Working *
23,01,00, Writing
26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial
32,00,00, Horseback Riding
34,00,00, The Wheel *
43,00,00, Pottery *

I dont see how this corresponds to your formula.
I did my testing with version .05, king, 7 countries.
I used CIV$ to fill the bulb counter.
There appears to be a pattern to this other than randomness as the choice display was constant over many games.

HTML:

First number advance number
2nd & 3rd advances that allow this advance

00,00,00, Dummy Adavance     
01,00,00, Alphabet            
02,01,00, Code of Laws       
03,18,00, Currency            
04,12,52, Atomic Theory       
05,29,31, Democracy           
06,02,26, Monarchy            
07,27,10, Astronomy           
08,02,00, MapMaking           
09,08,07, Navigation          
10,01,17, Mathematics         
11,29,25, Medicine            
12,09,10, Physics             
13,34,46, Engineering         
14,29,10, University          
15,09,12, Magnetism           
16,55,13, Electronics         
17,00,00, Masonry             
18,00,00, Bronze Working      
19,18,00, Iron Working        
20,46,19, Bridge Building     
21,13,31, Invention           
22,16,10, Computers           
23,01,00, Writing             
24,21,12, Steam Engine        
25,03,01, Trade               
26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial   
27,26,00, Mysticism           
28,42,04, Nuclear Fission     
29,31,26, Philosophy          
30,29,23, Religion            
31,02,23, Literacy            
32,00,00, Horseback Riding    
33,06,17, Feudalism           
34,00,00, The Wheel           
35,21,19, Gunpowder           
36,50,54, Industrialization   
37,11,14, Chemistry           
38,56,57, Combustion          
39,12,38, Flight              
40,39,55, Advanced Flight     
41,47,22, Space Flight        
42,48,59, Mass Production     
43,00,00, Pottery             
44,29,36, Communism           
45,02,31, The Republic        
46,03,17, Construction        
47,40,16, Rocketry            
48,36,54, The Corporation     
49,35,14, Metallurgy          
50,24,20, RailRoad            
51,28,16, Nuclear Power       
52,14,07, Theory of Gravity   
53,49,36, Steel               
54,45,25, Banking             
55,49,15, Electricity         
56,48,37, Refining            
57,37,35, Explosives          
58,61,42, SuperConductor      
59,38,53, Automobile          
60,48,11, Genetic Engineering 
61,56,41, Plastics            
62,42,05, Recycling           
63,33,32, Chivalry            
64,61,22, Robotics            
65,45,57, Conscription        
66,44,42, Labor Union         
67,58,51, Fusion Power        
68,67,00, Future Tech.

Urtica dioica · Jun 5, 2009

Dack, since your results match my formula exactly, I'll have to assume I didn't explain it well enough. Now that you've given me a scenario to work through, I should be able to make it more clear.

First off, I note that the top 2 possible techs in each set are possible in each case. So we can ignore those in each example.

Next, let's run through each tech list, each tech next to its index, remainder of division by 3, and whether it can be researched. I'll parenthesize the top 2 each time, to make it clear they will always be included.

(01 1 Y Alphabet)
(17 2 Y Masonry)
18 0 Y Bronze Working
26 2 N Ceremonial Burial
32 2 N Horseback Riding
34 1 Y The Wheel
43 1 Y Pottery

Remainder 2 is out, except Masonry, which is in the top two.

After alphabet:

(02 2 Y Code of Laws)
(08 2 Y MapMaking)
17 2 Y Masonry
18 0 N Bronze Working
23 2 Y Writing
26 2 Y Ceremonial Burial
32 2 Y Horseback Riding
34 1 Y The Wheel
43 1 Y Pottery

Remainder 0 is out.

After Code of Laws:

(08 2 Y MapMaking)
(17 2 Y Masonry)
18 0 Y Bronze Working
23 2 Y Writing
26 2 Y Ceremonial Burial
32 2 Y Horseback Riding
34 1 N The Wheel
43 1 N Pottery

Remainder 1 is out.

After MapMaking

(17 2 Y Masonry)
(18 0 Y Bronze Working)
23 2 N Writing
26 2 N Ceremonial Burial
32 2 N Horseback Riding
34 1 Y The Wheel
43 1 Y Pottery

Remainder 2 is out, except Masonry, which is in the top two.

So, yeah... perfect match.

I'm glad you used CIV$ to fill the bulb box, instead of gifting the tech, like I did for a while. When I just added the tech (with CIV$), the remainder counter didn't turn, which was really confusing for a while.

Valen · Jun 5, 2009

Wow! How long have I been playing Civ and not noticed this pattern? Great sleuthing Urtica dioica!

The attachment shows the science advisor's display when researching future tech.
The advances are listed in the same order as Urtica dioica's list. Initially, when you have no advances, the denied advances are in column 2. With one discovery, the deined advances are in column 3. Next, denied advances are in column 1. The cycle repeats.
The science advisor's display just makes the pattern easier to see.

Bratmon · Jun 6, 2009

I've played Civ 1 for three years, and I didn't even notice techs were missing!!

Osvaldo Manso · Jun 24, 2009

I've been on vacations and now I find out that I missed a wonderful thread...

Urtica dioica did a great great work! He deserves an "honoris causa" degree.

This feature of the game was introduced during the test phase by Sid Meier himself, because he thought that the game needed a little randomness when it comes to choose what to research next.

I like it lot because it's like the real world: sometimes you plan things carefully and they turn out the way you wanted; but other times even if things were carefully planed they will go wrong!

poecraft · Jun 27, 2009

Hi dudes !

Sorry for my bad english. I think I am the unique latin in this forum. I am beginner in this excellent web, i found it "googling", because i want know how to play the original pc Civ. I have been reading it is the best for a lot people.
I m curious, when you open a city, there is some draws or icons inside, no no, sorry, i can t write good. Sorry.

Anybody knows a bilingual user that could helpme write in correct way my questions in this web ? I could write in spanish and then someone helpme translate into english. ?

I hope someone understand my disaster english, I really want to play this game, but I feel buggy my mind .

lndm · Jun 27, 2009

Hi poecraft, your English is good enough for me to read.

Are you talking about the icons at the top on the left? The icons of people, shields, gold coins and arrows?

poecraft · Jun 27, 2009

lndm said:
Hi poecraft, your English is good enough for me to read.

Are you talking about the icons at the top on the left? The icons of people, shields, gold coins and arrows?

Hi thanks for your answer and disposition !! I have found in the Civilization 1 section, a lot of information and charts and screenshots of the game, with that I think is enough to begin read and understand the logic, I gonna read it, really I give you my thanks lndm !!
Greetings !

lndm · Jun 27, 2009

You're welcome

Dack · Jul 28, 2010

A few Sundays ago on some whim I decided to add the mod three algorithm that Urtica dioica has so clearly described to CIV$. I used my tried and true method, define the event and compare the before and after SVE file with a binary compare program. About an hour later I found the advance mod counter starting at HEX 04D8 (first byte in file is 0)

Code:

Hex
04D8  (2 bytes)   0 Barbarian
04DA              1 Russian    / Roman
04DC              2 Babylonian / Zulu
04DE              3 German     / French
04E0              4 Egyptian   / Aztec
04E2              5 American   / Chinese
04E4              6 English    / Greek
04E6              7 Indian     / Mongol

Each civilization having it’s own counter. Users of CIV$ will note that no next advance appears on the pages that allows for manipulation of the advance bits of the games civilizations. Only the human player can select what advance is being produced. I assume the game has some pseudorandom way of assigning the advance when the light bulb count has reached the appropriate value for non-human civilizations. The researching Advance value for the human player is stored in a word (16 bits) at 000E. At this moment I assume that the advance mod counter is incremented when a new advance is achieved. (Does anyone know how the value for the next advance is calculated? How many light bulbs are need for the next advance? *note1). This advance mod counter must be used in the calculation to determine how many light bulbs will be needed. Although I seldom get into Future Tech., I had wondered where it’s counter was. In testing for this change I decide to look for it data location. Future Tech is at hex8BAC only the human player appears to have a Future Tech counter.
Basically I just wanted to see if I could reproduce in code the mod three algorithm so that in CIV$ I could see what the computer would offer. This will appear in the next version.

This line of research sent me off on a tangent. The preverbal light bulb went off. The “Pollution Bug” *, the descriptions of it always describe some number of Future Tech’s triggering the event.

* If you interested in the pollution bug look at post #18 in thread Pollution "Bug"

Note 1

I found two definition of advance light bulb count:
1)The number of lightbulbs needed for each new advance is:
(difficulty level+3)*2*(# of advances you already have).
2) Human Player Lightbulb Incremement Per Advance
Each time an advance is discovered, the cost (in lightbulbs) of acquiring the next increases by this amount. Chieftan 6. Warlord 8, Prince 10, King 12, Emperor 14

Can anyone verify the truth of either?

LordOfTheGeeks · Jul 28, 2010

I've noticed this effect too, and have always wondered about it. Thanks for the info!

Nesretnik · Aug 2, 2013

Not being offered advances that I'm entitled to is an aspect of the game that's always narked me. Now, after all these years of playing Civ, I finally discover that it's not a bug at all, but a planned feature! But why? Beelining to a 'technology' like Chivalry, or deliberately leaving The Wheel, say, undiscovered as long as you can, is one of the fun aspects of this game. If realism is desirable, why not force us to discover technologies in strict historical order? Or not let us choose our technologies at all, but let each advance be randomly selected from those that are available (but perhaps with a weighting factor to favour the advance we prefer)?

Anyway...

Dack said:
I found two definition of advance light bulb count:
1)The number of lightbulbs needed for each new advance is:
(difficulty level+3)*2*(# of advances you already have).
2) Human Player Lightbulb Incremement Per Advance
Each time an advance is discovered, the cost (in lightbulbs) of acquiring the next increases by this amount. Chieftan 6. Warlord 8, Prince 10, King 12, Emperor 14

Can anyone verify the truth of either?

I rarely play at any level other than King, and I noticed early on that the cost of each advance was 12 more than the previous. This, of course, agrees with your formulations above. (They're just two different descriptions of the same formula, right?) But I haven't done any rigorous testing that this pattern continues beyond the point where it becomes tedious to count all those little light bulbs squashed up in a row, or that the other levels behave similarly.

Well, I'm new here, and after writing the para above (now struck out) it only took me an hour to discover the 'Difficulty Levels' resource, where the formula is confirmed. Oh, well...

BTW, I really like these simple formulae in Civ, especially the one for city population growth. When I tried Civ3 I was appalled that that beautiful simplicity had been removed from the city-growth algorithm.

Help, what's the logic on what your wise men can research?

Emperor

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