SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

It might just be possible to finish this game by t200 but that'd require some heavy luck and serious GPP farming to bulb at least as much as we did, a few GM missions (this alone could have shaved 10 turns on our finish date as we had our slider at 0% for long periods of time) and run at least one more GA. Some warring to farm 2/3 GGs would of course be necessary.

Other than that, I'm curious to know if CS Slingshot+GLH can be done in a decent time here [without some absurd luck I mean like popping resources left and right] and without bulbing Mathematics of course.
 
Other than that, I'm curious to know if CS Slingshot+GLH can be done in a decent time here [without some absurd luck I mean like popping resources left and right] and without bulbing Mathematics of course.
I can't access the save to try anything out, but iirc Aksum built a lh pretty early on, so one possible solution is you get a worker or two from Zara then capture Aksum and build GLH there. There were plenty of chops and they're 44h by then. Even if you have to build the lh, you'd probably get it. Chop while it's coming out of resistance.
 
It might just be possible to finish this game by t200
Maybe I'm wrong, but I still fail to see how that's even remotely possible. Probably even with perfect map knowledge. According to dingding's spreadsheet, Ducks only had somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of their total beakers generated by T190 (for T200 win). You'd most likely need to get 1000bpt well before 1 AD. That requires a mad early land-grab at AI expense (more than just Zara).
 
I'm too lazy to think carefully about those issues, but my intuition tells there's not much difference and actually was a right decision at that moment.

One apparent fact is that if we had had advantage of these GPP, the MM date could have been advanced by 5t. These GPP are just some easy money of 2550g!:blush:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot1593-1.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot1594.jpg



The total amount of beaker accumulated is absolutely one crucial condition of the game, if go for UN victory. (Concerning the accumulated beakers, it's well established that the early beakers are more important than the late ones, but it's also clear that the early beakers' importance lies on the fact that they help generate more beakers in the later stage. So here I just take into account the total amount accumulated)

In terms of research, I'd like to identify and evaluate the contribution of some of our moves, in order to have a better idea of the key factors:

1. GS bulbing: 17800B
In my chart, PD has accumulated about 75000 beakers + beakers for Radio by T228, in which the Oracle and GSs bulbing represent about 17800b. OSS performed nearly the same amount in the same way. It's justified that we can say GS bulbing is one of the most important ways, if not the most important one, to accelerate the victory.

2. The Great Lighthouse: 7000B
It was built at T118, and worked till t228. I had estimated, during the play, that it could bring 30-50 Cpt, and finally it generated 4000C and 7000B during 110t, quite appropriate.

I do believe the importance of GLH is much more than the number we see in eyes. This wonder, in such a circumstance, increases the break-event of building a new city from 6~8 cities up to 10 cities. That encourages the REX by avoiding financial difficulty. The effect, as we can see, by T179 (I take this spot because it's before the war and without GA), PD gains 289 commerce per turn and OSS 177 CPT. I think that's mostly the result of different strategies of REX and economy between the two teams.

My calculation for those who would like to check:
Commerce from GLH: 2 CPT in t118, 24 CPT in t142, 48 CPT in t179, 40 CPT in t205, 60 CPT in t228. Assume that the change is linear, we can calculate the amount of commerce in each period, multiplied by the average of beaker/commerce rates in each period, that's 5900C in raw and 7100B in final (multiplied by 120%).


3. Colossus: 2200B.
The contribution of the Colossus is not very significant, but given its cost (we whipped it out with only 3 pops), its profit is quite high as well. The only shame is that we didn't take advantage of the GPP it generated, as the picture showed above.

4. Golden age: 7500B ~ 9000B
The calculation of Golden age: suppose there is a percentage of population (like 70%) who can benefits from it in terms of commerce, plus that of the cities which are hammering gold, I estimate an additional 90~140 CPT can be generated during the GA, which is nearly 7500B~9000B during the 28t.

From this figure, I tent to doubt the necessity of MoM + Taj. Nationalism alone costs us 4000+B. It may be true that this choice brought some other contribution (or possibility of contribution) like drafting, GPP, flexibility of change if the fur is guarded by units superior to Rifles, but still the contribution is not very convincing. I should take the responsibility because I was for this plan.

5. The Great Library: 3500B
Given the cost, it's very lovely as well, let alone the GPP it has given!

6. The gem event: 1500B
I have to revise the estimation of the gem event after looking into it more carefully.
The gem was popped at around t135 and last till t228. During 93t, it brought 6*1.5 = 9 CPT. Multiplied by the convert rate and 120%, the total amount is like 1500B. It's unjustified that the gem is an important factor of the game.

7. Settlement of GP: around 8000B
PD has settled two GP in the cap: one GS and one GE. Also one GS is used to build academy in Delhi. The first GS gives about 3300B, the GE is estimated to generate 1800~2000B. The academy is quite hard to measure. But since we preferred build an academy than settle the GS, we may consider the contribution of the academy is no less than the settlement, around +3000B.


The factors mentioned above are 48000B, 65% of the total beakers of 75000 that PD has generated.
 
Regarding the question when we can possibly win at the earliest, I don't really know how to do otherwise. In PD's way, with better micro of GP (generate 1~2 more GM, so 2550~5100g, 3000~7000b), better luck (good breakdown of religions and no need to conquest for vote) and better tech tree (no Nationalism, gain 4000b), I think PD can advance by 5t (Pessimistic estimation) and 15t (Optimistic one) of research. So a MM date of 213t~218t, a victory date of 223t~228t should be workable. I'm not able to make more ambitious estimation, because I think at that point, the biggest constraint is GP number, diplomatic situation and acquisition of the Fur instead of research.

Personally I think the game is well designed because it is quite conditioned. So players need to have lots of consideration of the RISK besides beakers and hammers. In such conditions, the best team doesn't necessarily have to be the team which teched/REXed/warred the best (well it seems to be the case this time however) but the team who balances the strategy and the risk the best. I think our team did a good job on it as well. Just one example, if it turned out that it was some fierce barbarians (Infantry or even worst) who guarded the Fur, Plastic Ducks still had a decent chance, if not a better one, to win the game due to good expansion and wonder spamming. Some other teams may not be able to do the same if that was the case.
 
Very nice analysis dingding!

On my part, I think I'll work on a overview of the game: the way we played it - when what was done.

Trying to keep myself busy while the next SGOTM starts ;)
 
@dingding: I think we managed our GPP better, especially with the use of GM's at mutineer's suggestion for a long spurt at 100% slider. But the military option you guys took was clearly a better strategic decision and I'd keep that option in for an "ideal" game. Also, was Taj + MoM really a loss? I would have thought that with your empire size, you guys made more beakers than lost with that move. LC lobbied for MoM+golden ages in our game but we didn't go that route since we didn't have many commerce generating tiles we were working (i.e., coasts etc.) and we were strapped for GP's (lacking GG's).
 
Awesome, dingding! It's nice to see it all quantified like this. :thumbsup:

GLH + GLib = 10500b
Yes, that's obviously huge. It's also even bigger because of the gpp, ofc. This now seems to be the single biggest mistake(s) OSS made.

Golden age:
I arrived at a similar number (6-7k, IIRC). In addition to 4k Nationalism beakers, I think you have to also consider the actual cost of MoM and Taj hammers in Delhi. Made more sense for you guys, since it contributed more gpp to your primary GP farm, whereas in the OSS case that gpp rate would be insignificant in importance. Additional hammers must have helped your late-game military build-up, as well.

Gem event:
Estimate seems a touch low. Your multiplier in the end was 320%. I was figuring 2.5k earlier (but I think I roughly estimated and rounded freely). It's not huge, anyway.

GS settlement:
Effectively equivalent to bulbing, I guess. In total number, anyway - depends when you wanna cash in those beakers.

According to your previous spreadsheet, PD is ahead of OSS by 16k total beakers at Mass Media date. That seems to approximately equal GLH+GLib+Colossus+Gems. Not that straightforward, ofc, but it is telling.

BTW, yes, if there were rifles or infantry at the fur, you guys would simply massacre us. ;)
 
According to your previous spreadsheet, PD is ahead of OSS by 16k total beakers at Mass Media date. That seems to approximately equal GLH+GLib+Colossus+Gems. Not that straightforward, ofc, but it is telling.

I had wished to make a benchmarking between the two teams but gave up the idea. I think it'd better to let OSS team talk about their play themselves.

Personally the comparison can't be made only by one side. It concerns the notion of Opportunity Cost. On PD's side, we've chosen the wonder spamming path and got the reward as listed above; on OSS's side however, you spent the opportunities in another way and got your return accordingly as well, like:

1) PD abandoned REX during the building of GLH; OSS had taken the chance to settle down 4 cities quickly and grabbed the spot beside the Oasis;
2) PD went for TGL and OSS went for quick Oxford;

The questions are left to you: if it's worth settling early beside the Oasis, and what did you get from it? Or how much beakers did you get from early Oxford compared to PD? Only by answering this type of questions and identifying the gain/loss you made, can you know how much you gained/lost (compared to PD). So, if GLH+GLib+Colossus+Gems did really gain 16k beakers for us, it doesn't necessarily mean that OSS was 16k beakers behind PD because of these.

On the other hand, as I mentioned, I think OSS did an obvious good job of popping 2 GM, which made 10k beakers; while PD's two GP settled only made 5k. That's how I found PD has something to improve. And I will spend more time on other teams' thread to find the "Best-in-Class" ways.
 
We used Oasis to pop out early WB's for exploration. I don't remember the date but we made contact with all of the AI pretty quickly. We even briefly considered settling the dyes to provoke a dow from Izzy or Mehmed but eventually skipped that idea because we calculated city maintenance as being too high.

We whipped pretty hard for OU, but our only real big science cities were Delhi (Oxford) and 2-fish (running rep. scientists) so we didn't think we were losing much. TGL wasn't really an option for us because we were trying to keep the GPP pool as pure as possible in Delhi since we failed our 90% shot at the GE. I don't know that I can quantify our numbers gained/lost from this though :(
 
I had wished to make a benchmarking between the two teams but gave up the idea. I think it'd better to let OSS team talk about their play themselves.

Personally the comparison can't be made only by one side. It concerns the notion of Opportunity Cost...
So, if GLH+GLib+Colossus+Gems did really gain 16k beakers for us, it doesn't necessarily mean that OSS was 16k beakers behind PD because of these.
:D I totally agree, ofc. I've already stated that our choice to not settle coastal pre-2000 BC, like you did, effectively meant we couldn't think of building GLH. We had to do that in order to bulb CS, etc, etc.

The 2 GM trade missions were huge for us. 1 trade mission translates into approximately 15k beakers (say 22t of research @ an average of 650bpt - even maybe a conservative estimate).
 
Hi guys, BIC reporting late.

Well done on the finish. Glad to see everything went alright.

I'm not sure what to say now that the game has ended... It was a wonderful experience (even though time consuming), so thank you for inviting me in the team.
It was really cool to play with better players : I learnt a whole lot of things in this game. The discussions were nice and enjoyable. Handling the save was stressing but the game as a whole was a lot of fun (glad we didn't consider the cultural VC too much because I guess the endgame micro would have been a pain).

Hum... Err... Well...
Take me in for another game any time you want ! Maybe I won't be available but, if I am, it will be a pleasure to play with you again ;)

Seeing the discussion above, I guess I'll go read some other threads, now.
 
Looking back at the many things which we skipped on our game the great light house was a huge miss. We went for it far too late and Zara took it from us. Really it should of been a much earlier build.

I did like fact you built 3 workers early on. One thing we didn't twig was the slowness of Zara to expand. with so many workboat resources it wasn't till about 2400bc before he even built a second city.

Might of been nice to replace zara with Shaka or another AI. The rules of the game would of made the rush a weak option anyway.

Dingdong has done some great analysis on this game.

Clearly the next SGOTM needs to be more challenging as most teams seem to have walked this. Perhaps the barb city could of been an inland lake on a Ai continent.
 
@dingding

Not producing a GP from Pat was also my biggest regret.

About GM -- due to our strategy of wonder-spam in Delhi and going for war that early, we have little chance to run CS before the war preparation was done, We had 2 long stop of research, one is after Edu and before OU, so there's not much to change. Another stop is before Astro and SM, a GM would indeed help better than GS during this time. However, it's quite hard for Pat and no guranttee to produce a GM ~ 500AD, the only way to do it is let Pat skip unit production, but that would slow down the war.

About Taj -- I think that's a gain with our empire size at that time, the extra beakers are close to Nat itself, the extra hammers are more than the investment to Taj, and there are extra GPPs.

I think almost all our decisions in game have been right, although might not be the best.

@Gumbolt

I expected SGOTM 11 to be immortal, a good team can usually play above their levels in solo.
 
About Taj -- I think that's a gain with our empire size at that time, the extra beakers are close to Nat itself, the extra hammers are more than the investment to Taj, and there are extra GPPs.
I agree. LowtherCastle argued for MoM and multiple GAs in our game. I argued against it more than anyone. My assumption was that while running Pac all game, the extra GA gpp was irrelevant. It didn't really occur to us that we could use it to allow longer stretches of Slavery and translate that into warfare production and GGs.

I think almost all our decisions in game have been right, although might not be the best.
:thumbsup:
 
I did like fact you built 3 workers early on.

Along with an efficient use of Slavery, workers' use is the most all around thing I learnt/improved from/during this game.
We had 3 very early on, right, but then managed our empire with a very reduced workforce. If I'm not wrong, we had more cities than workers for most of the game... a thing we could get away with thanks to efficient planning of workers' tasks (+ fast worker awesomeness + Slavery again + ok coastal tiles).

I also was very surprised by the power of the Temple of Artemis, a wonder I always overlooked, and by golden ages. The game seemed truly unfair under a golden age.
 
Did Temple of Artemis really net you that much? It used to be powerful in warlords because of how it calculated trade routes but with the new formula in bts, I was under the impression that it's not so good.
 
Well, the Temple of Artemis obviously isn't as game breaking as the Great Lighthouse is...
BUT
Yes, I think it was a very good choice.
Duckweed made a strong argument for it along the lines of...
- 10 base GPP/turn vs 4 for a regular wonder. That's especially cool in retrospect, since the bulk of our GPPs was wonder based. I'm sure this helped a lot early on ;
- 1 base hammer, 1 base gold and 3 base beakers / turn. Not great but useful all around. Later on, Delhi has all the multipliers possible ;
- +100% trade routes + early currency... why not ? ;
- Marble : makes it cheap.

It wasn't our best wonder, sure. It's like a 2nd class but earlier Great Library. I guess only the Colossus was clearly inferior to it, but we had a large window to build the ToA, it was done relatively early and easily, so... it played its role well :)
I'm sure that if one calculated the return of the ToA, it would prove very honourable.


EDIT : To put the above in perspective, I wanted the ToA for failure cash. I'm perfectly happy we completed it :)
 
The ToA was like a costy improvement imo.
Since we didn't get any GMs or GPs from Delhi, it added "almost" 2 citizens' worth of GPP to the pool, allowing us to whip those citizens instead and grow cottages. Not that a GM would have been bad though :D

In retrospect, it would have been better to not whip The Colossus and instead farm a GP in Pataliputra, even a GS would have shortened our win by 2 turns at least.
 
Back
Top Bottom