Dueling

Dueling was a significant part of the Dune universe and I was wondering if there was a way to make it part of this mod as well. I did some searches but I haven't noticed this being suggested in the past, so I thought I'd propose this idea.

Dueling could be a alternative to espionage and battle.
In the DuneCCG it played a pretty big role, as it allowed you to get rid of pesky personas temporarily (or, if you were being a naughty Harkonnen, even permanently). In Dune Wars, perhaps it can used to disrupt some of the units of your opponent.

An initial idea of how it could work is this.

There's a new tech path for dueling, unlocking stuff initially such as a house duelist and with further tech like Crysknives or Personal Shields allowing you to create even more powerful duelists.

A duelist unit would act similar to an espionage unit but have different abilities which could include.

* A Great Challenge: If it succeeds, one great person is removed or sudbued for 20 turns (i.e. does not provide any bonuses - if such an option is possible). I realize this clashes with the Espionage units as modified lately, but perhaps this will not be available to duelists of all factions or just have a different effect.
* Landsraad Duel: A traditional duel meant to display the honour and power of your house. If it succeeds, you earn a bit of money and all your cities gain a bit of morale for a few turns. This mission can only be done on a house's capital.
* To the death: Your duelist challenges another persona (duelist or Mentat?) in the same space. If it succeeds, the target is killed and you ean some Landsraad recognition (abstracted to money?)
* Challenge Leader: When on the same space as a guardsman unit, you initiate a duel with its captain. If it succeeds, units loses 1/3 of its power and loses its next 3 turns while a new one is selected.
* Call out the scum: Destroy any espionage unit in the same city (higher chance in your own territory)

I'm sure you can see the potential.

Now the dueling unit, is more like the honourable version of the espionage, which means that house Atreides would not only have access to the good stuff, but it would also perhaps have some of the most powerful ones.

Like espionage units, a duelist can move through enemy terrirory. It cannot directly attack other units but it is also not countered via counter-espionage. The usual way to counter duelists is with other duelists, in actual duels. However your own espionage units can also counter them via more underhanded means. So for example some of the factions espionage units will receive the ability to assasinate them. This should be the option for the houses which specialize in espionage rather than dueling. I'm not sure if combat units should be allowed to attack duelists.

What do you think?

Hi db0, welcome to Dune Wars.

This is an interesting idea, to be sure, but I think we tend to lean against new mechanics that the AI can't understand.

Hmm, I was hoping that this was similar enough to espionage that the AI could understand it. I mean, seeing how there's all these new espionage missions that have been implemented lately, I thought that was something possible.

Ahriman said:

I think we tend to lean against new mechanics that the AI can't understand

Click to expand...

I know we are cautious about this and that is wise, but I don't think we should tie our hands too much. If you look at what Sephi has done with the Wild Mana modmod for FFH2 it is possible (if challenging) to write AI code for entirely new mechanics. Likewise Koma created AI code for the Homeworld screen so that it would use it. AI code is something I'd like to try with the new plans for Mentats that I have brewing.

Deliverator said:

I know we are cautious about this and that is wise, but I don't think we should tie our hands too much. [...]AI code is something I'd like to try with the new plans for Mentats that I have brewing.

Click to expand...

Yay! That is good news. I hope in that case that you like the idea above enough to consider developing in a future release.

Question: Is it possible for a player to trigger events for themselves? For other civs? Is it possible for an event to affect another civ's units?

I was thinking that another way to implement dueling is that once you've researched the tech, you might be able to trigger an event to start a duel. This would cause a target civ to receive a new event which they have to choose among the options and if they lack proper dueling tech or counters, there won't be any good option.

Example of the event that might pop-up on another civ who doesn't have a dueling tech is:

A Settling of Scores
"Your house has been challenged to a ritual duel to settle past grievances"
a) "Send forth your best warrior to represent you. Unfortunately his is no match for the trained duelist that awaits him" : Lose your most experienced unit but gain 1 diplomacy point with all civs that have the kanly civic.
b) "Decline the duel" : -50% culture loss for 10 turns. lose 2 diplomacy points with all civs that have the kanly strictures, and 1 dp with those that do not. (You cannot select this option if you have the kanly civic active)

However, if one has researched the "dueling tech" as well, a new option is available

c) "Send our house blademaster to meet him." : 50% Chance you have -20% culture for 10 turns (you lost). 50% Chance <civ x> has -20% culture for 10 turns. (percentages might go higher or lower, depending on if your dueling tech is better or worse than the challenging civ)

And if you have researched one of those nasty espionage techs, you might get yet another option:

d) "Poison Blade" : 70% Chance nothing happens (You win the duel). 30% chance, you lose 2 diplomacy points with <challenger civ> (You've been discovered)

I don't know how exactly one should trigger these events. Perhaps a dueling unit needs to be created and then "consumed"? I don't know if there's any other way to trigger them but it could be an option.

db0 said:

I don't know how exactly one should trigger these events. Perhaps a dueling unit needs to be created and then "consumed"? I don't know if there's any other way to trigger them but it could be an option.

Click to expand...

As you describe it, it's starting to sound like a whole minigame... which probably isn't a terrible idea. It might be possible to adapt the duelling into something similar to FfH2's Somnium.

Depending on winning/losing, you might get diplomatic boni/penalties or can stop wars (or get higher war weariness if you lose), etc.

An advantage of that would be: You won't need to teach it the AI within the usual game framework, only within your minigame. E.g. you could make into a minigame where you pick "maneouvres"; each maneouvre has certain boni or penalties against the opposed maneouvre, helping (or hindering) you on a random roll. Who wins X rolls first, wins the duel.

Now, in that game (essentially a glorified Rock-Paper-Scissors), the AI could play totally random (making the duels random) or have a preferred set of maneouvres (determined at random at game start), that it's choosing from with a high probability - meaning the human player could become better and better at the duels (by getting grasp on the opponent's play-style), something that's desired, IMHO.

Cheers, LT.

Is it possible for a player to trigger events for themselves?

Click to expand...

Through like a button? Not easily, no.
But you can have an event be triggered by a circumstance that is caused by a player (eg: building a Landing Stage building, or being the player to found the Technocracy religion or researching a particular tech).

For other civs?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is possible for an event I have (or a particular choice from it) to trigger an event for another player, but in my experience with Fall From Heaven 2, these are often highly unstable, and the triggers often fail.
I recommend we keep away from these.

Is it possible for an event to affect another civ's units?

Click to expand...

Note sure. Probably complex to do.

lack proper dueling tech

Click to expand...

I don't think that duels are sufficiently important in the Dune universe to warrant their own tech.

Example of the event that might pop-up on another civ who doesn't have a dueling tech is:

A Settling of Scores
"Your house has been challenged to a ritual duel to settle past grievances"
a) "Send forth your best warrior to represent you. Unfortunately his is no match for the trained duelist that awaits him" : Lose your most experienced unit but gain 1 diplomacy point with all civs that have the kanly strictures civic.
b) "Decline the duel" : -50% culture loss for 10 turns. lose 2 diplomacy points with all civs that have the kanly strictures, and 1 dp with those that do not. (You cannot select this option if you have the kanly civic active)

However, if one has researched the "dueling tech" as well, a new option is available

c) "Send our house blademaster to meet him." : 50% Chance you have -20% culture for 10 turns (you lost). 50% Chance <civ x> has -20% culture for 10 turns. (percentages might go higher or lower, depending on if your dueling tech is better or worse than the challenging civ)

And if you have researched one of those nasty espionage techs, you might get yet another option:

d) "Poison Blade" : 70% Chance nothing happens (You win the duel). 30% chance, you lose 2 diplomacy points with <challenger civ> (You've been discovered)

Click to expand...

I think this kind of structure overly complex for not much gain.

Affecting diplomacy with other factions depending on their civic choices? Complex.
Affecting a unit with the most experience? Complex (and why would a highly promoted tank unit be destroyed by a duel?).
Even a culture income penalty is not easy; we'd probably need to use Deliverator's newly created temporary buildings code, and have the event add one of these buildings that then expired after 10 turns.

The creativity is great, but its probably better to think small to start with.

Ahriman said:

The creativity is great, but its probably better to think small to start with.

Click to expand...

Certainly. I know that having the idea is easy but implementing it can be far trickier than it looks, and I certainly don't want to just dump immensely complex stuff for little gameplay value.

What do you think about the mini-game idea that Lord Tirian suggested? I don't know how easy something like somnium can be implemented but perhaps a much more simple version might be possible?

In fact the more I think about the idea of a mini-game, the more I like it. It will certainly create less balance and AI issues for the devs. But then again, I don't know how complex creating a mini-game might be and perhaps the original idea with an espionage-like unit might be easier.

If however you were itching to create a full-fledged somnium-like game, I already have some ideas for rules in my head (tactic-card based duel w00t)

What do you think about the mini-game idea that Lord Tirian suggested? I don't know how easy something like somnium can be implemented but perhaps a much more simple version might be possible?

Click to expand...

I have no coding ability, so I wouldn't be the one implementing it. So mine is not the voice that matters.

I personally would lean away from it; I think we're really trying to wrap this mod by filling in gaps, rather than adding major new mechanics. And it seems like too much attention for something that is a relatively minor part of the world. I would much rather use events to try to incorporate as many different flavorful things as possible rather than focusing on just one particular aspect. And I don't see much design interest from adding features that the AI can't use effectively. But that is my specific bias - and I have a tendency towards fear of feature creep.

I personally don't think Somnium added anything to FFH, for example. But some people liked it.

I would let others see what they think; it is not up to me.
And I don't want to discourage creativity or enthusiasm, which is always great to see.

Cool. So just to summarize in case the devs are looking, there's four ideas here for a dueling mechanic.

* An alternative espionage-like mechanic, where it adds a different dimension for such actions.
* An event driven mechanic, where you cause dueling events which get more powerful based on the tech you've researched.
* A simple mini-game with minimum balance and AI requirements.
* A complex full-fledged mini-game based around choosing your dueling tactics.

It's up to those who know how difficult to code to decide which, if any, to implement. I hope I've provided some interesting ideas, even if it's just flavour to be added as a cherry on the top of this great mod

Fair enough.

But I would add my favored option:
* One or two specific events that involve some flavorful dueling options. But keep these to a single event that is triggered for a particular player, rather than trying to code events that trigger across players.