PC Gamer gives Civ V 93%

I am curious how many of you are familar with the abstract phenomenon of "regression to the mean".

I was wondering why it was that many civ3 players were disappointed with civ4 and preferred civ3, and now with civ5 on the way, inevitably many civ4 players are going to be disappointed with civ5 and prefer civ4. I think the above phenomenon plays a big part in that.

People like myself who were impressed with the game civ4 are simply going to be more likely to be less satisified with civ5 because our satisfaction with civ4 was above normal. Conversely, and maybe it's obvious, but the people who were not impressed with civ4 are more likely to be more satisfied with civ5.

More generally, it goes some way to explain why sequels of great games are often perceived to have failed to satisfy the players of the original to the same level. Of course, it goes with sequels to other things like books and movies etc. Consider that if a game doesn't sell well and is considered to be a flop by its players and producers, it is less likely to receive a sequel and so the regression towards the mean resulting in a better sequel never gets experienced. It's perhaps ironic that the better a game is, the less likely it is that a sequel will live up to expectations.

My advice to anyone who enjoyed civ4 a lot would be that they should do the best they can to treat civ5 as an entirely different game. If you bring expectations over from civ4 or make too many comparisions between civ5 and civ4 when you play civ5, you are more than likely going to be disappointed with civ5. Maybe a slightly depressing thought but statistics pretty much guarantees it... Also consider that probably most of the people preordering civ5 or who buy civ5 quickly after release are doing so because they enjoyed civ4. That could result in a bias in "first reactions" to the game - the most fanatical of fans are the group who are most likely to perceive civ5 as being lesser quality than previous games.
 
I am curious how many of you are familar with the abstract phenomenon of "regression to the mean".

I was wondering why it was that many civ3 players were disappointed with civ4 and preferred civ3, and now with civ5 on the way, inevitably many civ4 players are going to be disappointed with civ5 and prefer civ4. I think the above phenomenon plays a big part in that.

People like myself who were impressed with the game civ4 are simply going to be more likely to be less satisified with civ5 because our satisfaction with civ4 was above normal. Conversely, and maybe it's obvious, but the people who were not impressed with civ4 are more likely to be more satisfied with civ5.

More generally, it goes some way to explain why sequels of great games are often perceived to have failed to satisfy the players of the original to the same level. Of course, it goes with sequels to other things like books and movies etc. Consider that if a game doesn't sell well and is consiered to be a flop by its players and producers, it is less likely to receive a sequel and so the regression towards the mean resulting in a better sequel never gets experienced. It's perhaps ironic that the better a game is, the less likely it is that a sequel will live up to expectations.

My advice to anyone who enjoyed civ4 a lot would be that you should do the best they can to treat civ5 as an entirely different game. If you bring expectations over from civ4 or make too many comparisions between civ5 and civ4 when you play civ5, you are more than likely going to be disappointed with civ5. Maybe a slightly depressing thought but statistics pretty much guarantees it... Also consider that probably most of the people preordering civ5 or who buy civ5 quickly after release are doing so because they enjoyed civ4. That could result in a bias in "first reactions" to the game - the most fanatical of fans are the group who are likely to perceive civ5 as being lesser quality than previous games.

Don't ask them to critically examine their own psychology, that's not fair. They will rage and go by gut reactions and you'll be damn glad for the opportunity to listen to it.
 
I am curious how many of you are familar with the abstract phenomenon of "regression to the mean".

I was wondering why it was that many civ3 players were disappointed with civ4 and preferred civ3, and now with civ5 on the way, inevitably many civ4 players are going to be disappointed with civ5 and prefer civ4. I think the above phenomenon plays a big part in that.

People like myself who were impressed with the game civ4 are simply going to be more likely to be less satisified with civ5 because our satisfaction with civ4 was above normal. Conversely, and maybe it's obvious, but the people who were not impressed with civ4 are more likely to be more satisfied with civ5.

More generally, it goes some way to explain why sequels of great games are often perceived to have failed to satisfy the players of the original to the same level. Of course, it goes with sequels to other things like books and movies etc. Consider that if a game doesn't sell well and is consiered to be a flop by its players and producers, it is less likely to receive a sequel and so the regression towards the mean resulting in a better sequel never gets experienced. It's perhaps ironic that the better a game is, the less likely it is that a sequel will live up to expectations.

My advice to anyone who enjoyed civ4 a lot would be that you should do the best they can to treat civ5 as an entirely different game. If you bring expectations over from civ4 or make too many comparisions between civ5 and civ4 when you play civ5, you are more than likely going to be disappointed with civ5. Maybe a slightly depressing thought but statistics pretty much guarantees it... Also consider that probably most of the people preordering civ5 or who buy civ5 quickly after release are doing so because they enjoyed civ4. That could result in a bias in "first reactions" to the game - the most fanatical of fans are the group who are likely to perceive civ5 as being lesser quality than previous games.

That depends...I think it has mostly to do with the "expansions" that somewhat improve the game in it's final phases. Civ 3 vanilla sucked...but expanded to Conquests was better than Civ 4 vanilla. And Civ 4 BTS was better than Civ3 Conquests..that's my opinion.

Oh and the mods Rise and Rule was better than Civ3 conquests, and Rise Of Mankind is better than Civ4 BTS and all the previous. :)
 
Yes but corruption is a major influencing issue of any REAL WORLD empire, it's like corrosion of the most precious of metals. Lack of corruption to me is just dumbing it down and unrealistic.

There was corruption in Civ4 too. They just called it city maintenance and the mechanics of it were slightly different.
 
I was wondering why it was that many civ3 players were disappointed with civ4 and preferred civ3, and now with civ5 on the way, inevitably many civ4 players are going to be disappointed with civ5 and prefer civ4. I think the above phenomenon plays a big part in that.
Also keep in mind that a lot of the Civ 3 fans that didn't like Civ 4 had their opinion based on reasons entirely unrelated to the gameplay, rules or mechanics. There were a ton of complaints about the move to 3D- modders who argued that it would make it impossible to create unique units, players who complained that they wouldn't be able to run the game, etc. I remember getting into many 'discussions' with people who insisted that Civ 3 was more mod friendly than Civ 4.

I won't be surprised when we end up with some very vocal community members screaming about how Civ 5 isn't as easy to mod, is too demanding on their computer or whatever. Personally, I'll just chaulk it up to people resisting change.

People like myself who were impressed with the game civ4 are simply going to be more likely to be less satisified with civ5 because our satisfaction with civ4 was above normal. Conversely, and maybe it's obvious, but the people who were not impressed with civ4 are more likely to be more satisfied with civ5.
I was very impressed with Civ 4, I played and modded it from day one and only stopped working on mods about a month ago (but still play it even now). I don't think any less of Civ 4 at this point, I'm just ready for something new so I doubt I'll be 'less satisfied' with Civ 5 simply because I had 'above normal' satisfaction with Civ 4.

Maybe I'm different because I'm an old fart and I've been through this cycle with hundreds of other games before. Or, maybe I just learned not to get myself so worked up over a video game that I don't feel so depressed when my wildest dreams don't come true.

As a modder, some of the most exciting times are the first couple of months after a game's release when everybody is still trying to figure out what you can really do to it. Being part of that is a lot of fun because inevitably people will come and go and a few years down the road you get to watch fresh blood make the same discoveries.

Anyway, I think people are overreacting (some are quite extreme) as they speculate about what Civ 5 will be like. I feel sorry for the people getting themselves so worked up that they're only leaving room for disappointment. I pitty those holding such a negative view of something they haven't even seen yet as they'll likely convince themsleves that they don't like it enough to prevent them from enjoying it once they do get their hands on it.

Although I will admit that I am a victim of my own morbid curiosity and can't stop reading the debates between people speculating it will be good and people speculating that it will be bad. :)
 
As a modder, some of the most exciting times are the first couple of months after a game's release when everybody is still trying to figure out what you can really do to it. Being part of that is a lot of fun because inevitably people will come and go and a few years down the road you get to watch fresh blood make the same discoveries.

That's awesome to hear. I'm quite excited to get into CiV modding, bathe myself in Lua and later delve right into the SDK.
 
Also keep in mind that a lot of the Civ 3 fans that didn't like Civ 4 had their opinion based on reasons entirely unrelated to the gameplay, rules or mechanics. There were a ton of complaints about the move to 3D- modders who argued that it would make it impossible to create unique units, players who complained that they wouldn't be able to run the game, etc. I remember getting into many 'discussions' with people who insisted that Civ 3 was more mod friendly than Civ 4.
I do agree with you but note that with regards to what I was describing, the player's view on modding and graphics etc. would be included in the "satisfaction" they felt. I say this knowing, for example, that my satisfaction with civ5 will, as it did with civ4, depend a lot on its moddability and its "multiplayerbility". Moddability in particular was a strength for civ4, and multiplayer was in need of improvement but definitely enjoyable (says me who played a couple of PBEM turns only moments ago :)).
I won't be surprised when we end up with some very vocal community members screaming about how Civ 5 isn't as easy to mod, is too demanding on their computer or whatever. Personally, I'll just chaulk it up to people resisting change.


I was very impressed with Civ 4, I played and modded it from day one and only stopped working on mods about a month ago (but still play it even now). I don't think any less of Civ 4 at this point, I'm just ready for something new so I doubt I'll be 'less satisfied' with Civ 5 simply because I had 'above normal' satisfaction with Civ 4.
I read this as you disagreeing with my line of argument. Firstly, not in any way am I suggesting that if you enjoyed civ4 a lot will you be unsatisfied by civ5. I'm just arguing you're less likely to be as satisfied with civ5 as you were with civ4 (e.g. 95% satisfied with civ4, 93% satisfied with civ5). There are extra variables and I have implicitly made some convenient assumptions. For example, I have assumed that there aren't any objective reasons to expect civ5 to be more highly regarded than civ4.

Me? I'm likely to enjoy civ5 and will probably be more than satisfied with it, but in some sense I'm expecting my "scoring" of civ5 to be harsher than for civ4. Not because of my pessimism but because of cold hard statistics coupled with the fact I enjoyed civ4 too much. :D
Maybe I'm different because I'm an old fart and I've been through this cycle with hundreds of other games before. Or, maybe I just learned not to get myself so worked up over a video game that I don't feel so depressed when my wildest dreams don't come true.
I can sympathise with your view, but it's a bit off the point (at least of what I was discussing).
As a modder, some of the most exciting times are the first couple of months after a game's release when everybody is still trying to figure out what you can really do to it. Being part of that is a lot of fun because inevitably people will come and go and a few years down the road you get to watch fresh blood make the same discoveries.

Anyway, I think people are overreacting (some are quite extreme) as they speculate about what Civ 5 will be like. I feel sorry for the people getting themselves so worked up that they're only leaving room for disappointment. I pitty those holding such a negative view of something they haven't even seen yet as they'll likely convince themsleves that they don't like it enough to prevent them from enjoying it once they do get their hands on it.

Although I will admit that I am a victim of my own morbid curiosity and can't stop reading the debates between people speculating it will be good and people speculating that it will be bad. :)
Aren't we all (such a victim)? Aren't we all...
 
I read this as you disagreeing with my line of argument. Firstly, not in any way am I suggesting that if you enjoyed civ4 a lot will you be unsatisfied by civ5. I'm just arguing you're less likely to be as satisfied with civ5 as you were with civ4 (e.g. 95% satisfied with civ4, 93% satisfied with civ5). There are extra variables and I have implicitly made some convenient assumptions. For example, I have assumed that there aren't any objective reasons to expect civ5 to be more highly regarded than civ4.
Nah, not disagree so much as just a general dislike for such broad profiles and labels that 'experts' (not you, the person or people that came up with the theory in your link)like to put on people. I'm too easy going to even notice if I am only 93% satisfied rather than being 95% satisfied and would just as likely consider myself 100% satisfied in either case. ;)
 
I almost bought Civilization: Revolution. I'm not making that mistake again.

Preview play and early reviews are done for one purpose: to sell product.

I suspect the game will be simplistic and boring, but I really, really hope I'm wrong. We'll see in 20 days and change. Don't worry... if I am mistaken I'll go fanboi real quick.

Good thing they are giving you a free demo to try rather than making you buy the game to decide whether you like it or not rather than basing your opinion off of other peoples opinions you get to make your own judgement for free.
 
Perhaps you're just getting older, and the excitement for computer games is not what it used to be..

If the right game comes along, age doesn't tarnish the video game excitement feeling one bit. Age just makes the waiting a bit easier :)
 
Nah, not disagree so much as just a general dislike for such broad profiles and labels that 'experts' (not you, the person or people that came up with the theory in your link)like to put on people. I'm too easy going to even notice if I am only 93% satisfied rather than being 95% satisfied and would just as likely consider myself 100% satisfied in either case. ;)

It's statistical fact (regression to mean). Whether or by how much it applies to the satisfaction with computer games is another mattter. It's not supposed to say anything about psychology but I'm arguing it at least goes a good chunk of the way in describing the phenomenon of the biggest fans of civ games finding the newer games to be not as good. On an individual level it doesn't say much at all - I'm not going to make any predictions about your like of civ5, but I can make the broad generalization that if you thought civ4 was one of the best games of all time, it's going to be difficult for a new game to live up to that expectation. If the game exceeds your expectations, it might just mean you're part of the unlikely group who don't tend toward the mean in this case.
 
It's statistical fact (regression to mean). Whether or by how much it applies to the satisfaction with computer games is another mattter. It's not supposed to say anything about psychology but I'm arguing it at least goes a good chunk of the way in describing the phenomenon of the biggest fans of civ games finding the newer games to be not as good. On an individual level it doesn't say much at all - I'm not going to make any predictions about your like of civ5, but I can make the broad generalization that if you thought civ4 was one of the best games of all time, it's going to be difficult for a new game to live up to that expectation. If the game exceeds your expectations, it might just mean you're part of the unlikely group who don't tend toward the mean in this case.

It's because we remember the previous version with all the expansion packs that the newest one feels lame, in fact I tried playing a game of vanilla Civ IV and I didn't like it much because mods had spoiled me
 
That doesn't really apply, because computer games are by and large subjective in nature. "Regression to the mean" implies there's an objective mean, such as a numeric value.

It can still apply to subjective things, but yes I agree it needs to be something you can attach a numeric value to. I would assume for most people it's possible to put a score out of 100 on each game. Rather than arguing about regression to mean on some subjective quantity, use the score quantities and the effect will be observed.

For example, suppose for the sake of argument the mean rating of civ4 by all players was 80. Take the mean score of all the people who rated the game 90 or above. Observe the ratings of civ5 by that same group of people. Regression to mean would say the mean score for civ5 by that group would be lower than what their mean score for civ4 was.

Regression to mean doesn't explain the whole thing obviously, but I'm arguing it plays a part. When regression to mean is used in statistics and in design of experiments it's more important to be more precise about its application but we're only talking here about the rating that people give to video games - not really something worth doing a real experiment about. I can only suggest what the results of such an experiment would show.:)


It's because we remember the previous version with all the expansion packs that the newest one feels lame, in fact I tried playing a game of vanilla Civ IV and I didn't like it much because mods had spoiled me
That's a good point.
 
It can still apply to subjective things, but yes I agree it needs to be something you can attach a numeric value to. I would assume for most people it's possible to put a score out of 100 on each game. Rather than arguing about regression to mean on some subjective quantity, use the score quantities and the effect will be observed.

For example, suppose for the sake of argument the mean rating of civ4 by all players was 80. Take the mean score of all the people who rated the game 90 or above. Observe the ratings of civ5 by that same group of people. Regression to mean would say the mean score for civ5 by that group would be lower than what their mean score for civ4 was.

Regression to mean doesn't explain the whole thing obviously, but I'm arguing it plays a part. When regression to mean is used in statistics and in design of experiments it's more important to be more precise about its application but we're only talking here about the rating that people give to video games - not really something worth doing a real experiment about. I can only suggest what the results of such an experiment would show.:)
But each person is going to have their own subjective opinion and experience for each individual game based on their own likes and tastes. Objective aggregate isn't really applicable in this situation. Anyway, it's beside the point. Some people will undoubtedly feel like Civ4 is better than Civ5. I certainly remember many people seriously doubting Civ4 would be anywhere near as good as Civ3, but nowadays it's fairly uncommon to find someone who thinks it's better, but there are still some. I think that once the game is out for a while, and mods have been made, and expansions are released, once Civ6 is nearing end of development we'll all be having this same conversation about how it is not going to be as good as Civ5 (probably talking about how dumbed down Civ6 will be, too).

Edit - also, if regression to the mean does apply here, where's the mean? It could be "super awesome", which is what every Civ game has been when it's come out. I can live with that mean! :)
 
I was wondering why it was that many civ3 players were disappointed with civ4 and preferred civ3

That simply boggles my mind. But as Seven05 said, a lot of it probably had to do with modding and graphics. That I can accept even though I think modding that PieceOfMind had done was great.

And I will take his advise in treating Civ5 as a different game.

But there is no reason to abandon Civ4 like I did when I went from Civ2 to Civ4. Civ5 will likely be different enough to where one can enjoy both games?
 
I agree with the Regression to Mean statement. It's really quite evident with MMO's. It's why games that are as good as WoW was when WoW came out still can't steal WoW's playerbase for long. They inevitably go back.
 
I agree with the Regression to Mean statement. It's really quite evident with MMO's. It's why games that are as good as WoW was when WoW came out still can't steal WoW's playerbase for long. They inevitably go back.

Are you making a joke? It looks like you're taking advantage of the negative stigma that gets attached to the statement "regression to mean" (and the offense it causes to some) and using it in a way different to its statistical meaning.:confused:

If you're being serious, please correct me.
 
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