SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

This is my first attempt to get a CS sling with my test game
Oracle by 1000 BC
9 Pop, 2 cities, 2 warriors, 3 workboats, 2 workers (settled NNE)

When I started the war weariness off at 97, I wasn't able to trade for peace with Gandhi.

Tech path AH, Fishing, Writing, Mysticism, Mediation, PHood, Math, CoL

Builds worker, workboat, worker, warrior, library, settler, oracle
2nd city warrior, workboat, library (6/90)

probably can optimize a bit (I never went 0% research so might be able to a few more research by timing the research a bit better)
 
bcool said:
sacrificed 18 warriors to each AI to get 97 war weariness I saw in real game.
Click to expand...

Is the ability to see war weariness new for this SGOTM Buffy mod? I went back to my recent BOTM game during a turn that I was at war and the war weariness variable was not visible when hovering the mouse over a leader on the score board... Or is there an option somewhere to turn this on?
 
From what we (kinda, sorta) know about the AI starts now, I'm not so sure they'll be as slow as it appears in the test save. 1000 BC sling doesn't excite me too much. Also, I don't like having only 2 workers, 2 warriors and next to no exploration done by this date.

I tried it, and NNE feels really slow compared to the other two sites. Unless I'm somehow really misplaying it...

@ZPV,
In the latest test, Gandhi won't accept Wtg+AH+BW for peace. That doesn't correspond with the costs you figured out yesterday. Could you try and see what could be the reason? I'm thinking that getting peace and somehow opening up an Alpha trade is the most important early goal here.
 
I do think that we should remove some of the fallout near the AI's lands. I'm betting that there is only ~200 fallout tiles total.

I'll try editing the test save to remove some fallout to see how much an effect that has on the AI's development.
 
Well if Erkon launched 50 nukes, that's max 450 fallout tiles. I doubt he covered half the land tiles with nukes as that would really slow AI development.
 
Test game with less fallout

Edit: still has the ICBM... Not sure how to get 230k soldiers if I take out the ICBM.

Edit#2: I could give him a military academy and a barracks? Or a modern tech that gives 10k soldiers (But Laser and Rocketry both have expensive projects... Advanced Flight? ) Would mean he doesn't start with Ecology though.
 
bcool, why did you sacrifice 18 warriors? I sacrificed 14 warriors and nuked everyone once, as shown in the combat log and attitude screen and also got 97 WW corresponding to each AI. I think we want to test with as close to the real battle success as possible, in case that affects DoP and tech trading.
 
shyuhe said:
Well if Erkon launched 50 nukes, that's max 450 fallout tiles. I doubt he covered half the land tiles with nukes as that would really slow AI development.
Click to expand...
That's interesting, shyuhe. It's 9 fallout tiles per nuke? Where did you find that information?

Btw, I counted that we exploded 40 nukes, so that would be 360 fallout tiles max?
 
Oh right, it'd be 360 max. Fallout can only fall in the 3x3 grid around the target tile, although it doesn't always fall on those tiles. From experience, I'd say it's about 50% of the tiles in that grid although I'm sure you can get a more certain answer if you look at the code. Of course, Erkon could easily have just added fallout through the WB so this ceiling value isn't a true cap.
 
babybluepants said:
@ZPV,
In the latest test, Gandhi won't accept Wtg+AH+BW for peace. That doesn't correspond with the costs you figured out yesterday. Could you try and see what could be the reason? I'm thinking that getting peace and somehow opening up an Alpha trade is the most important early goal here.
Click to expand...

I'll take a look. In particular, I'll also test the start-game predictions.
Possible changes include: population, his power and any mistakes on my part :rolleyes:.
 
babybluepants said:
I'm thinking that getting peace and somehow opening up an Alpha trade is the most important early goal here.
Click to expand...
I agree. The problem I see with the CS path is that Gandhi doesn't get Writing soon enough and we can't gift him writing while we're still at war. But to answer that we really need to know precisely what's making the cost of DoP so expensive.

-----------------------

We want to accomplish certain things early on that this is clearly one of them. The AIs will brings stacks sooner or later and that's not what we want to have to deal with.

Discussion: What do we want early on?

Our priorities as I currently see it:
1. DoP
2. REX
3. GLH
4. Oracle
5. Tech trading with Gandhi.

For tech trading with Gandhi, we'll two good techs, the first to get the DoP, the second for whatever techs. CS is worth too much for what he'll have to give.
 
While testing, it might useful to observation Gandhi's tech progression. I've noticed that he doesn't necessarily go for Polytheism. He's also gone FIshing-AH-TW in some of my games. It'll depend on his resources of course in the real save.
 
bcool, why did you sacrifice 18 warriors? I sacrificed 14 warriors and nuked everyone once, as shown in the combat log and attitude screen and also got 97 WW corresponding to each AI. I think we want to test with as close to the real battle success as possible, in case that affects DoP and tech trading.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize I had to nuke them each time in addition to sacrificing 14 warriors. Since the diplo modifier was still there I thought I didn't have to nuke them.

If you don't nuke them sacrificing 18 warriors gets you up to 97 war weariness. So my test games shouldn't be used.

Edit: Fixed my test game file...
I didn't look closely at the diplo modifiers there was a -2 for past events instead of the nuke.

Edit#2: Oops again... the new buffy mod wasn't loaded it seems... fixing again
 
bcool said:
Since the diplo modifier was still there I thought I didn't have to nuke them.

If you don't nuke them sacrificing 18 warriors gets you up to 97 war weariness. So my test games shouldn't be used.
Click to expand...
That's weird. I also don't understand why you'd have to nuke them again, if the modifier is still there. But I also noticed that if I do all that stuff and then save it as a wb file, reload it as a scenario, the nuked us -2 vanishes... :crazyeye: So I had to do all that stuff and then just save it at 4000BC.

I guess I should scrub more resources around the AIs on my test save, then?

-----------------

Getting peace with these guys and getting the CS sling before 1000BC is a trick.
 
I fixed my test game, put in less fallout, sacrificed 14 warriors, nuked everyone, removed some of the fallout that reappeared, changed the techs, put in the manhattan project, removed the -2 for past events, I think it is better.

Of course there are still world map and island issues to deal with at the very least. And my guesses on techs are just guesses. And I left Stalin with 7 tactical nukes which only gives him 220k soldiers.

Edit: Sorry I realized there was another mistake and so I was fixing it
 
LowtherCastle said:
Discussion: What do we want early on?

Our priorities as I currently see it:
1. DoP
2. REX
3. GLH
4. Oracle
5. Tech trading with Gandhi.

For tech trading with Gandhi, we'll two good techs, the first to get the DoP, the second for whatever techs. CS is worth too much for what he'll have to give.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about the Oracle. If we don't feel comfortable with our CS sling date around 1000 BC, I'm almost thinking that we should skip the Oracle completely. Since we have two gold mines, a CoL sling, for example, will only save about 12 turns of research at the cost of 150 hammers and having to self-research Myst, Med/Poly and PH (~ 300 beakers). Maybe we should instead focus on DoP, REX and the GLH as LC and BBP has suggested. 150 hammers is about equal to 2 Imperialistic settlers...

With that said, if we think a CS sling is possible in this game, not doing so will put us quite a bit behind the teams that actually do pull it off unless we can fully leverage our earlier REX and research off the PH line.
 
In SGOTM11, the Ducks went without a CS sling and instead went with an aggressive rex. Given that we have to go all the way to the end of the tree in this game, whoever gets the most land up and running the fastest will likely be the victor. So if the CS sling will not lead to a faster rex by say, 1 AD, then it'll be better to skip it or take a cheaper tech.
 
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