SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

I've done a quick test save of the area around us, changing the extra land I revealed in the 2nd pop. It'll be very strange if you get to 5-6 cities (as in the test we're well North). So here it is. I think I'll run a few tests using our db to see what is the best whip of the library for a settler first.

Edit: I forgot the horses, so I'm putting a new save

Brian Shanahan said:

As team leader it's been put to my attention that I've been remiss in my duties. To whit I forgot to post a roster:

Brian Shanahan >>gone to a deserved, but not eternal rest.
drlake >>UP for the fight
Trystero >> on deck, scrubbing it like a nice cabin-boy
ChrisShaffer
neilmeister
Earthling
ParadigmShifter

I have made a change, i.e. I've placed PS somewhat later in the list than previously mentioned. Hope everything is satisfactory.

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The cabin-boy is ready for scrubbing duties. I am actually much more comfortable now that we have the micro spreadsheet up and running.

And nice turnset fearless leader. The horses were indeed a nice compensation for settling in place.

Slavery: In my experience, the best time to revolt to slavery in the early game is when a settler is completed and in route to the city location.

I also wanted to comment on a couple of things I noticed playing the test save last night to check the micro spreadsheet:

I set the first warrior to auto-explore, and he of course found Mao. I played past the end of the current micro plan to the point where we were going to settle the 3rd city (turn 70-ish), and I ran into a stack from Mao: 4 chariots and 2 archers (all with 1 or 2 promotions). I didn't play through much longer, but I think that would have been game over. I am not sure how much having horses mitigates this threat, but I was wondering if it wouldn't be prudent to divert to Archery early on. I rarely tech Archery in my SP games, but archers are better city-defenders than chariots. I also think we need to take the time to connect resources into consideration. We can whip out an archer in a pinch, but we can't rush connecting strategic resources. I realize Archery is a diversion from a more optimal tech path, but this isn't a normal game. Anyway, I'm not strongly advocating for Archery at this point, just putting it out there for discussion.

Also, in the test game I had little luck trying to trade techs for peace with Gandhi. I couldn't trade him Aesthetics since he hadn't teched Writing, and he wouldn't give me peace for Writing and Bronze Working. I think diplomacy is going to be the hardest part of this game. More so than tile-scrubbing.

Hmmm, that would be a problem to deal with at this stage of the game. I assume we'll still want to explore, though, since there's no guarantee that a lack of contact will protect us for a useful length of time. We'll start getting warriors during my turn set, so we'll need to discuss that. My inclination would be to send the first warrior out to scout in concentric arcs, the second to warn us of incoming enemies (basically fog-busting), and the third as the MP for A-N.

BTW, we'll need a city names list before we start founding more of them.

Actually, in my tests, I have been sending each warrior to a city site and fortifying. So far, this has not resulted in stacks coming my way. I think for now it is in our best interests to *not* explore, counter to normal practice. As long as the AI doesn't know where we are, it won't send a stack our way.

With no barbarians we don't need to fog bust.

Can't we hook the horse and make chariots? If we must divert to Archery, can we do it after Writing / before Aesthetics?

City List:
Sto-Lat,
Sto-Helit,
Quirm,
Chirm,
Lost city of Ee,
Djelibaby,
Genua,
Nothingfjord,
Holy Wood,
Pseudopolis,
Bad Blintz,
Bad Schuschein,
Bonk (pronounced Beyonk),
Porkscratchenz,
Bes Pelargic,
Hung Hung,
Bhangbhangduc (last three are in Agatea a China substitute),
Bugarup,
Dijabringabeeralong ("Check your weapons", "Yeah got all mine")
Last two are in XXXX.

There are some more here. If we get stuck we can start using village names from Lancre (pronounced Lanker).

Yeah, not exploring outside of our potential city sites is actually prudent until we have defensive units. I was thinking that the best time to make this decision would be post-BW to see if we have any copper in our vicinity. We need to keep in mind that we are at war, and even though we want peace, the AI might not act accordingly.

Brian Shanahan said:

City List:
Sto-Lat,
Sto-Helit,
Quirm,
Chirm,
Lost city of Ee,
Djelibaby,
Genua,
Nothingfjord,
Holy Wood,
Pseudopolis,
Bad Blintz,
Bad Schuschein,
Bonk (pronounced Beyonk),
Porkscratchenz,
Bes Pelargic,
Hung Hung,
Bhangbhangduc (last three are in Agatea a China substitute),
Bugarup,
Dijabringabeeralong ("Check your weapons", "Yeah got all mine")
Last two are in XXXX.

There are some more here. If we get stuck we can start using village names from Lancre (pronounced Lanker).

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Ephebe doesn't even make the list? I have a soft spot for ethical slavers.

Works for me, thanks for listing them.

OK I'm at turn 59 now, about one turn in worker actions behind schedule at Novgorod (due to 3 turns of stupid micro for second worker). I will test 2 and 1 pop whips for the library.

As regards using the land I went onto the horses until now when I started the library, when I moved back to the 2nd cow (meaning I'll go from 3 to 4 pop in 3 turns). I also have a save where I'll grow to 4 pop before I build the granary at A-M.

OK I forgot to post all that so here are my test results:

Test one I whipped out a library on turn one to go for one pop at turn 64, while building the library A-M grew to 4 pop. This gave me a total overflow of 33*1.5=49 hammers, allowing for a 3 turn settler. Save is called test library.

On the second test I went back to turn 59 and put the citizen working horses in A-M back to cows. This had me growing in 3 turns (i.e. turn 61). I finished the granary the same turn. From the extra production with the added population in the last turn I had a large overflow into the library, meaning I had four turns to build it (and a 3pop penalty for first turn whip). The next turn I looked and found that it had gone down to 1 pop, so I waited for max overflow. On turn 64 I whipped the library and got 36*1.5=54 hammers of an overflow. The settler was still 3 turns away.

So Growing to pop 4 before finishing the granary is the stronger move, it will get out the settler 1 turn early, and will give a slightly larger overflow. I will see is there any way to improve on this, though with the 1/2 price libraries it may be hard to do.

I also did my own page with horses in the micro plan. I will fully update it before finishing

ChrisShaffer said:

Ephebe doesn't even make the list? I have a soft spot for ethical slavers.

Works for me, thanks for listing them.

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Was thinking of Ephebe as a country when doing the list, not as a city

Brian Shanahan said:

Was thinking of Ephebe as a country when doing the list, not as a city

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It's a city-state, like Athens, so easy to call it one way or the other.

Your list is fine, let's use it.

Darn Civ V release is killing the server!

ChrisShaffer said:

Darn Civ V release is killing the server!

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Really killing it I think we should call in Columbo.

I've also put up the first part of our saga, which includes our national anthem. Learn it well.

I told you all we shouldn't settle on the coast, but you guys just wouldn't listen. Thank goodness that I talked you around. With those horses popping up, it would have been a really bad move!!!


Revolt after settler built seems like a very good idea to me.

I don't think the horsies are going to change the Micro. We need Gold first so that City 2 can build the WB, we need rice to solve city 2's health problems.
What I think it does change is the logic behind whipping. I could see value in whipping away the rice, but 2 Cows, 2 Gold & a horse are all really good tiles. Whipping under pop 5 would have to be really worth it IMO.

Brian Shanahan said:

City List:
Sto-Lat,
Sto-Helit,
Quirm,
Chirm,
Lost city of Ee,
Djelibaby,
Genua,
Nothingfjord,
Holy Wood,
Pseudopolis,
Bad Blintz,
Bad Schuschein,
Bonk (pronounced Beyonk),
Porkscratchenz,
Bes Pelargic,
Hung Hung,
Bhangbhangduc (last three are in Agatea a China substitute),
Bugarup,
Dijabringabeeralong ("Check your weapons", "Yeah got all mine")
Last two are in XXXX.

Click to expand...

If I get to name a city, it will be Kom, from Omnia. Small Gods is my favourite Pratchett.

neilmeister said:

I told you all we shouldn't settle on the coast, but you guys just wouldn't listen. Thank goodness that I talked you around. With those horses popping up, it would have been a really bad move!!!


Revolt after settler built seems like a very good idea to me.

I don't think the horsies are going to change the Micro. We need Gold first so that City 2 can build the WB, we need rice to solve city 2's health problems.
What I think it does change is the logic behind whipping. I could see value in whipping away the rice, but 2 Cows, 2 Gold & a horse are all really good tiles. Whipping under pop 5 would have to be really worth it IMO.

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Well I was thinking that when it was first brought up, but playing through the two test saves kind of reinforced it for me. Wit cheap libraries, the only use is in one pop-whipping on the last turn, and the extra pop will cut the advantage there.

Was trying to remember the name of that city too.

I think we are more likely to whip in our fish city, actually.

Gandhi is ahead of us on Power, Espionage, Food, and Production.

We are #5 in GNP and #1 in land area. Nice being cultural.

ChrisShaffer said:

Gandhi is ahead of us on Power, Espionage, Food, and Production.

We are #5 in GNP and #1 in land area. Nice being cultural.

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And what's worst from the power graph, Gandhi is the one with 14,000 troops. I think we may be hoping to stay hid until we can stand up an army of some sort.

OK, got the save and it works fine. Let me know when we're ready for me to run the turn set, and what turn I should stop on.

Here is the test save, updated to the current turn: t25

Where we whip will be the opposite of where the Scientists go I think.

I'm not sure how much testing I can do today, but I should be able to run through a few scenarios.