[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

1. Revolutions
2. Extensive Tech Tree
3. Snail Speed / Early Buildings
4. More Resources (Ex. Cement, Steel, Biofuel, etc)
5. Usable Mountains
6. Building Upgrades / Building Dependency Webs
 
@zappara

So do you think there is hope for modding Civ5? I mean are you going to have to basically make a whole new game that just happens to run on a civ5 game engine?

I think the new game engine is the key to why so much is missing in Civ V, its like starting anew (Civ I) I think thats why its so messed up now and with different language coding etc. SO "we" will just have to contend with it. I got Kael's Legions and i like it alot better with the one unit showing up as ONE unit, rather than that cluster stuff "they" have. It will take quit awhile, cause the way it look, Steam is far far behind on stuff, heck the patch came out two days ago and they still haven't got it to the Live Steam yet:mad: What companies won't do with the millions the other company gave them:p
 
Yesterday I tested if I could make a small mod by copying one example mod and making my own version but apparently Civ 5 doesn't load mods that don't have unique IDs ie. we need the modding the tools before we can add any custom mods to the game because mods need to be sent to the Firaxis mod db.... I guess we'll be playing Civ 5 for some months before we can add any custom mods (without modifying the game's original xml files).

About Civ 5:
- Game speed / building speed on normal game speed / standard map isn't balanced. I'm on medieval era and haven't had time to build the simplest buildings - something is wrong here...

- Happiness... is a mystery to me. Can't annex conquered cities or your empire gets really mad and with puppet city option you don't control what that city produces... Happiness comes from luxury goods (from City states and by diplomacy) and I think the first happiness building is colosseum which takes too long to build at normal speed...

1. It doesn't need to go through any db, you can just change any number/letter in the randomly generated number to get it to show as 'installed' in the game, I'm currently working on my Advanced Missiles Mod using the Tiny Death Robot mod type setup and Valk's GAMEINFO file... but all altered for AMM. Turns out the game recognizes it, but something is missing from letting the game load the ICBM into the game. Valk's gunna be taking a look at it and giving back the tested and fixed version.

2. Get Huck Finn's tile yields mod v3 that's been updated by Valk, it fixed that problem for me.

3. I just puppet the cities, they don't produce units and they only affect your empire in the best way possible - minimal maintenance and unhappiness. I annex them later when they built enough buildings to balance out the bad effects then rush a courthouse.
 
I don't think it's wise to even begin planning on Civ 5 ROM until everything is patched and "expanded" in Cv5. Unless you like scrapping everything and starting from step one.
 
Once BUG gets going on Civ 5 the better, never cared about Revolutions at all. But i believe the Tech Tree ought to be the first thing to be made, add in the First new eras, whether you want to call it Prehistoric/Stone/Neo/what ever (minimum of two) then anymore like TransHuman (and others), then work from there, you can add anything from there but without the starting point, it makes it 10 times harder. IMHO.
Yes, tech tree is the first thing to do when starting RoM size mod project... :)

@zappara

So do you think there is hope for modding Civ5? I mean are you going to have to basically make a whole new game that just happens to run on a civ5 game engine?
Yes, there's hope. It's just going to take a while to learn all the new stuff (saw some religion xml tags in building xml).

1. It doesn't need to go through any db, you can just change any number/letter in the randomly generated number to get it to show as 'installed' in the game, I'm currently working on my Advanced Missiles Mod using the Tiny Death Robot mod type setup and Valk's GAMEINFO file... but all altered for AMM. Turns out the game recognizes it, but something is missing from letting the game load the ICBM into the game. Valk's gunna be taking a look at it and giving back the tested and fixed version.

3. I just puppet the cities, they don't produce units and they only affect your empire in the best way possible - minimal maintenance and unhappiness. I annex them later when they built enough buildings to balance out the bad effects then rush a courthouse.
1. I think we shouldn't just place random numbers to those IDs even though we'd get our work-in-progress working that way in-game and with mod tools (next week I think) we can test our mods without uploading them to any servers... Those IDs are there to prevent conflicts between uploaded mods.

3. Yea, that's the same way I'm playing - no more Civ 4 like conquests as you can't produce units in conquered cities... got to adjust my play style a lot :lol:

I don't think it's wise to even begin planning on Civ 5 ROM until everything is patched and "expanded" in Cv5. Unless you like scrapping everything and starting from step one.
RoM was first made to Warlords expansion (with different name) and I converted it to BtS once that was released... but it's true that we'll have to wait for patches and DLCs / 1st expansion before we really can get to modding. I'd be happy if we get the initial RoM release by next summer (with just basic stuff like new tech tree / buildings / units) but it can also take longer. Civ 4: RoM has taken 3.5 years to get to state it is now...
 
After a good 24 hrs spent playing Civ V here's my 2 cents...

The Good:
Hex tiles and 1unit/tile. Combat has more depth than simply making a stack of death and ransacking cities. Also the combat seems to be well balanced. I also like the road revisions, road maintenance makes sense and cuts down on sprawl. The lack of tech/gold sliders is an improvement in my opinion. It always felt rather artificial to set the research rate like a god.

The Bad:
The AI is lacking. It shows little sense in combat at all, and even less in diplomacy. The worst is in resource trading. When I try to obtain a luxury resource from an AI civ, they will accept no less than 4 lux. resources of my own as a "fair trade." Also, they'll give me jack for my resources. As has been mentioned many times, unit and building times are totally whacked, but this can be fixed rather easily. The UI is slightly irritating, but not completely incomprehensible. Two other major issues I have are:

1) strategic resource consumption: resources like Iron, Uranium, and Oil are consumed when you build a unit/building that requires them. The upshot of this is that your armies and buildings are limited by the number of strategic resources you have. I understand that this is to make resources more important, but it becomes completely nonsensical in the industrial and modern eras. For example, in my American game playing on the largest map size I own ~half the largest continent (out of 3) but only have 2 uranium sites, with 3 more easily obtainable. This means that I can have at most 5 nuclear missiles at one time. So much for my plans to wipe those annoying arabs off the face of the earth :mad: Oil is similar, limiting the number of aircraft, boats and tanks I can field to ~25. Totally unrealistic.

2) There is no foreign trade: In all honesty I think they should have left the civ4 trade system. The only trade routes in the game are between your cities and your capital.


So, for ROM in civ V I'd suggest (in no particular order):
-revolutions and individual city happiness
-emergent factions: It would be awesome if city states could become empires in a system similar to the minor civs in ROM
-Faster Culture spread around cities (it takes forever!)
-more techs/units/buildings/wonders and faster build times
-religions would be nice
-civics would also be nice; perhaps the social policies could enhance civics?
-Improved AI in diplomacy and war
-Future eras with hoverships, maglevs, and thermobaric tanks :D
-more resources and improvememts
-Bigger map sizes and longer game speeds
-MORE CIVILIZATIONS
-usable mountains

whew!
 
i'd vote for more techs, resources and improvements first.. they kinda all tie together really.
more social policies would also be great.
then religions.

bigger maps sizes and longer game speeds can actually be done in the xml, so very low priority for me, since i can do that now.

more civilizations are also easy, other then the graphics for the leaders.. only problem is so few traits to choose from. but i think this is something that could and will be done by many people, so probably not a priority for the mod itself.

i'd really prefer to keep the happiness the way it is..
if anything make espionage work similarly, one espionage meter for the whole civilzation, with possible bonuses per city like gold and happiness work now.
or possibly espionage could actually be a crime rating instead.. the higher your crime rating the more problems you have, which also means easier for "spy" events.

hey wait... does civ 5 have events?!? don't think i've seen one yet. besides "your city wants cotton" and "this city state wants you to attract a great scientist." no floods, fires... i hope they are there somewhere.

culture spread i believe can also be done in the xml, so again not a priority.

can we just make a "mod" that switches the xml files that are used? never actually made a mod, i just modified some xml files in both civ 4 and now 5 for my personal use... such as making mountains not generate on the map :)

i've had to much coffee today. sorry if this doesn't make sense :crazyeye:
 
hey wait... does civ 5 have events?!? don't think i've seen one yet. besides "your city wants cotton" and "this city state wants you to attract a great scientist." no floods, fires... i hope they are there somewhere.

From what i have seen in the interview videos they said that too many testers believed that the computer was "out to get them" or some non-sense when disasters would happen to them so they took that feature out. Honestly I think the more conflicts the better. I love events in Civ4 since they could be both positive or negative (or even neutral). It gave the game an unexpected side that helped make every game diffrent. It was stupid for them to take the events out in my option.
 
I hope that you guys decide to stick with 1upt for the RoM mod. This is probably my favorite feature if V so far, each battle is more meaningful. I like the maintenance model in V, as it pays to specialize your cities, and doing the "build everything everywhere" is detrimental.

Overall I'm pretty pleased with RoMs features up to this point. What I'm really hoping you'll be able to do is mod the completely horrible UI that V has. I'm still shaking my head at how bad the UI is. Especially the build queue.
 
Civ 5 is a great game and has lots of potential. To me, it is lacking administrative tools, Religions and Important Civics (Social Policies has a good potential for modding) and more differentiation between civilizations should be a good start for a Rise of Mankind v5. Deeper Technology trees and more civilizations/leaders, plus more resources should be another great addition to the game.

I am eager to see big mods in here.
 
Stacks. I like stacks.

Not stacks, but armies moving as a unit. At least until they reach the front lines. ;)

Oh, and no riflemen in the classic age. Talk about your unit of doom! It happens when your scout gets three "upgrade to better weapons" from ruins!
 
I think the economic system needs to be redone. I always seem to be doing fine with a 40+ gold per turn average all from taxes and cities. Then i mysteriously start to drop by the time i get to around 9 cities and it continues to drop until im at -3 or worse. then your armies get disbanded and you pretty much lose. I think theres something wrong in the maintenance system cause all my 9 cities are above population size 5 so that means they should be paying enough in taxes to cover the roads,mines, and farms. The AI dosnt have this problem it seems and i see them with gpt rates of 80 to 200 and they arnt even in golden age.
Maybe we could cut down farm,mine, and lumber mill maintenance to half what it is now.
 
@Zapparra

Nice update, but the most important question went unanswered.
Will ROM stick to the 1upt or adopt the stack mini mod?

I for one hope it will keep the 1upt.

Even if it will be a modable feature (like in what AND did) it will still be very important to which style of play are you going to balance it...
 
@zappara
I am basically a "jack of all trades" and can do a little bit of everything. My strong skills are in planning and organization, but I can draw, 3D model and do artistic stuff (see my art portfolio here). In addition thanks to the help of Afforess I have learned how to do some coding in civ4 XML and continue to learn. In short I would like to help out with this mod since it has been my favorite. I cannot promise modding 24/7 but I can help out when I have periods of free time.

In short I would really like to get some of my ideas I have had for Civ4 (see HAND mod) to be created without me having to start my own mod and do it all by myself. If i can have some input as well then count me in.

In addition I know someone from the "Gaming Steve" form who has some art skills who is interested in helping out this mode with 3D modeling. See his post here.

PS I don't have Civ5 yet. :p I have been waiting to see what the modding tools are like first.

--------------

EDIT: Ok i have some questions ...

1. Are you getting a new sub-forum in the Civ5 section for RoM like you did for Civ4?

2. I have a lots of ideas about techs, should I just start breaking it down in this thread or make a new one?

3. Will RoM be more modular than in Civ4? Such as making it where the player can activate whatever features they want? Or is it going to be one big standard mod with everything is in one big mod that you can't adjust but is more balanced than a bunch of modular mods? Or are you going to do a hybrid where there is a core mod with a bulk of stuff and then some "extra" optional mods for those who want even more.
 
@Zapparra

Nice update, but the most important question went unanswered.
Will ROM stick to the 1upt or adopt the stack mini mod?

I for one hope it will keep the 1upt.

Even if it will be a modable feature (like in what AND did) it will still be very important to which style of play are you going to balance it...
I'm beelining with 1upt at the moment but I could go also with 3upt... I think this needs testing before the final decision is made. By the way, there's game define for how many units can be on same plot so it's quite easy to change it (download Legion's mod that does use this game define, it has also nice set of new promotions with the required art files).

EDIT: Ok i have some questions ...

1. Are you getting a new sub-forum in the Civ5 section for RoM like you did for Civ4?

2. I have a lots of ideas about techs, should I just start breaking it down in this thread or make a new one?

3. Will RoM be more modular than in Civ4? Such as making it where the player can activate whatever features they want? Or is it going to be one big standard mod with everything is in one big mod that you can't adjust but is more balanced than a bunch of modular mods? Or are you going to do a hybrid where there is a core mod with a bulk of stuff and then some "extra" optional mods for those who want even more.
1. Yes, though at this moment there's no Civ5 - Project & Mod Development sub-forums but when they set them up, I'll get subforum for RoM.

2. Let's discuss in this thread, I don't want to clutter Civ 4: RoM forum with Civ 5 stuff (I'll probably ask them to move this thread to Civ 5 modding forum). I was thinking that something like ~50 techs per era would be a good start (variation allowed ie. one era could have 45 techs and next one 55 etc) - though this is not set in stone, we'll have to make tech lists first and then see how it goes.

3. It definetaly will be more modular - I've been looking at the xml files and it seems they've taken a huge step with modular support. I thinking that there could be RoM core module (game concepts/defines + tech tree) that will be required for other RoM modules. Hence the reason why we need to name our modules with "Rise of Mankind" -prefix so that players know what modules they can use with the core module. Stuff like SDK changes will have to go into core module but all xml edits can be uploaded as single modules which allows players to make their own modpack by enabling certain modules. I did mention in my 1st post that we could also release a full modpack once all required modules are finished (for easy use for whole modpack). To test this modular system, I already made game world size module... :D
 
It might be interesting to have diffrent units take up diffrent amount of spots per tile. Such as tanks or siege weapons could take up an entire tile while infantry could have more than one infantry unit per tile. Calvary could be somewhere in between. But yeah the promotions too would be interesting in getting more than the standard amount of units per tile.

EDIT:

Some ideas off the top of my head ...

4 Units Per Tile = Infantry (Melee, Archers, Scouts, etc)
2 Units Per Tile = Cavalry
1 Units Per Tile = Siege Weapons, Tank, Motorized Vehicle, Ship

This way you could have like a combo with 1 Calvary (2 Spots) + 1 Archer (1 Spot) + 1 Swordsman (1 Spot).
 
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