JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
So, Sun does that mean we're good to go on the first turnset?
(ie build a worker, research BW, fishing)
(ie build a worker, research BW, fishing)
SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
That's actually the decision of the Team Captain(s).
If you're asking me as a Team Member, I'd like to hear more from Mighty Dwaarf on Fishing -> Animal Husbandry or anyone else advocating a different start.
Sun Tzu Wu
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
The test save does have WorldBuilder turned on, so you can add stuff if you like. Some spies in AI capitals to see what they are doing could be worthwhile, although the extra unit support costs may throw off the tech pace. But we could learn for certain what the AIs are doing to clear fallout.
I disagree with Sun about wanting two settlers early -- unless we have at least three workers, I do not think we could clean enough land for two new cities that early. Maybe not even enough for one additional city. A lot will depend on some recon to see what kind of possible sites we have available to us.
I disagree with Sun about wanting two settlers early -- unless we have at least three workers, I do not think we could clean enough land for two new cities that early. Maybe not even enough for one additional city. A lot will depend on some recon to see what kind of possible sites we have available to us.
Good idea, if someone can run a test save just to observe the AI behaviour under these settings, will they REX? Can they clean fallout? Will they go for wonders? Might be helpful.
McArine
King
I've been in favor of a Fishing -> AH start, ever since my test game, where I used that strategy.
BW really takes a lot of research time, that could be spent on getting CS from Oracle.
Mighty Dwaarf
Ginger Beast
T1 settle St petes, Fishing and WOrker started
T2 peace with Churchill
T8 Fish => AH, peace with Gandhi for Fishing
T21 AH => Writing, Worker => Wrkboat Worker to Cow 1E
T27 Gandhi demands AH +1 fair trade +1 tribute, worker cleans cows
T31 Cows Pastured
T35 Wrkboat => worker
T36 Writing => Mysticism, Gandhi OB
T42 Worker => Library, Gold mined
T43 Myst => Med
T45 Size 3, (Cows,Gold,Fish)
T48 2nd Gold mined
T49 Med => Priest
T50 Size 4, (Cows,Gold*2,Fish), Lib => Settler
T52 Priest => Math
T57 Settler => Scout (Cows *2, Gold, Fish)
T59 Scout => Warrior
T60 Rostov Found (Lib)
T61 Trade Wheel+Archery 4 Writing from Gandhi, St Petes size 5 (Cows*2, Gold, Fish, Sci)
T64 Math => COL, 2 cities connected via road, trade Math 4 BW+Pott
T76 Trade Priest 4 Ag
T77 Col in Oracle completes CS for free, revolt to Bureau and Slavery
After this traded COL for IW and Sailing also CS for Alpha and Masonry. 1st GPerson was a GP at 10% odds but at least had shrine to build.
researched Currency and built Gran and Lhouse in St Petes then started GLH.
View attachment TEST_ChokoMisfits BC-0675.CivBeyondSwordSave
T2 peace with Churchill
T8 Fish => AH, peace with Gandhi for Fishing
T21 AH => Writing, Worker => Wrkboat Worker to Cow 1E
T27 Gandhi demands AH +1 fair trade +1 tribute, worker cleans cows
T31 Cows Pastured
T35 Wrkboat => worker
T36 Writing => Mysticism, Gandhi OB
T42 Worker => Library, Gold mined
T43 Myst => Med
T45 Size 3, (Cows,Gold,Fish)
T48 2nd Gold mined
T49 Med => Priest
T50 Size 4, (Cows,Gold*2,Fish), Lib => Settler
T52 Priest => Math
T57 Settler => Scout (Cows *2, Gold, Fish)
T59 Scout => Warrior
T60 Rostov Found (Lib)
T61 Trade Wheel+Archery 4 Writing from Gandhi, St Petes size 5 (Cows*2, Gold, Fish, Sci)
T64 Math => COL, 2 cities connected via road, trade Math 4 BW+Pott
T76 Trade Priest 4 Ag
T77 Col in Oracle completes CS for free, revolt to Bureau and Slavery
After this traded COL for IW and Sailing also CS for Alpha and Masonry. 1st GPerson was a GP at 10% odds but at least had shrine to build.
researched Currency and built Gran and Lhouse in St Petes then started GLH.
View attachment TEST_ChokoMisfits BC-0675.CivBeyondSwordSave
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
OK, I'm fine with just one Settler by turn 60 just to keep our "REX" going. By this time, our two workers should be done with improving the Capital and can preChop Forests, build a Road to our 2nd City site and finally improve the 2nd City.
Sun Tzu Wu
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Excellent! Getting a Settler out by t57 and The Oracle -> Civil Service is really great!
I suggest that we proceed with a start that matches McArine's and Mighty Dwaarf's test runs that began with a Worker and Fishing -> Animal Husbandry.
However, I really hope someone has time to add a few Spies to see what the AIs are up to in the time period 0-85, especially how effective their Fallout cleaning goes, Great Wonder starts and the other things that Ozbenno mentioned. Is it possible to start with very high Espionage against AIs in World Builder?
Sun Tzu Wu
You can WB yourself a Great Spy in each AI capital.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Okay. Sounds like new consensus is
Fishing --> Animal Husbandry
Build a worker.
Try and make peace however I can.
Fishing --> Animal Husbandry
Build a worker.
Try and make peace however I can.
Agreed! Play until worker finished I guess.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Turnset Plan (t-13 hours till play)
Settle 2N 1E in that spot we've discussed 100x
Fishing --> Animal Husbandry
Build a worker.
Try and make peace however I can.
Settle 2N 1E in that spot we've discussed 100x
Fishing --> Animal Husbandry
Build a worker.
Try and make peace however I can.
ianw1610
King
I played the test game again, using a Fishing---AH---Writing start...
T1 - settled Capital
T4 - peace with all AIs
T8 - Fishing, gifted to Gandhi
T21 - AH, gifted to Gandhi
T21 - completed first Worker
T35 - Workboat for Fish
T36 - Writing, gifted to Gandhi (got Open Borders with Gandhi)
T40 - 1st Warrior - to explore
T43 - 2nd Warrior - to defend Capital
T49 - Library, and ran 2 Scientists for the next 17 turns to get a GS
T55 - Mathematics - traded to Gandhi for BW + Wheel + Mysticism
T59 - Meditation
T63 - Priesthood
T66 - Great Scientist, Academy in Capital
T66 - 1st Settler
T69 - Settled SilkRice on southern Plains Hill
T74 - SilkRice completes Warrior, to defend city
T76 - Code of Laws
T76 - Oracle in Capital, took Civil Service
T77 - researched Alphabet for 1 turn, then traded CoL to Gandhi for Alphabet
T78 - revolted to Bureaucracy and Slavery
T78 - lots of tech gifting to the other AIs - got Open Borders with all except De Gaulle
T79 - lots of trading with other AIs - picked up all the remaining early techs
T89 - Metal Casting
T91 - Great Lighthouse (Capital - 3-pop whip)
T103 - Paper
T105 - Colossus (Capital - 2-pop whip) - this is 250BC - next Settler is 4 turns away. I stopped here.
T1 - settled Capital
T4 - peace with all AIs
T8 - Fishing, gifted to Gandhi
T21 - AH, gifted to Gandhi
T21 - completed first Worker
T35 - Workboat for Fish
T36 - Writing, gifted to Gandhi (got Open Borders with Gandhi)
T40 - 1st Warrior - to explore
T43 - 2nd Warrior - to defend Capital
T49 - Library, and ran 2 Scientists for the next 17 turns to get a GS
T55 - Mathematics - traded to Gandhi for BW + Wheel + Mysticism
T59 - Meditation
T63 - Priesthood
T66 - Great Scientist, Academy in Capital
T66 - 1st Settler
T69 - Settled SilkRice on southern Plains Hill
T74 - SilkRice completes Warrior, to defend city
T76 - Code of Laws
T76 - Oracle in Capital, took Civil Service
T77 - researched Alphabet for 1 turn, then traded CoL to Gandhi for Alphabet
T78 - revolted to Bureaucracy and Slavery
T78 - lots of tech gifting to the other AIs - got Open Borders with all except De Gaulle
T79 - lots of trading with other AIs - picked up all the remaining early techs
T89 - Metal Casting
T91 - Great Lighthouse (Capital - 3-pop whip)
T103 - Paper
T105 - Colossus (Capital - 2-pop whip) - this is 250BC - next Settler is 4 turns away. I stopped here.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Please go ahead with planned Turn Set, JerichoHill. I suspect we finally have a plan with unanimous approval.
Awesome test run that gets everything we want! However, we probably should be REX'ing a bit more after the Civil Service sling-shot.
We probably should be spamming Settlers and Workers at some point. Around turn 110 seems a bit late for Settler #3 (for our third City).
More Suggestions for World Builder Great Spy/Spy start:
I'm still a bit curious how the AI cleans Fallout without having Ecology. I really like Ozbenno's idea of adding a Great Spy to each AI's Capital for Infiltration Espionage Points to the Spy in each Capital. That ought to allow our Worlder Builder test save to provide us maximum information which may be especially useful in this SGOTM where we have extremely little prior knowledge of how the AI will develop. I don't know of anyway to compensate for the unit maintenance except a WB Great Merchant already near its destination.
Sun Tzu Wu
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
I was all set to play last night, but a sick wife got in the way, poor girl. I should be good to go to night
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Okay here's the turnlog. Note the 4000BC Madness.
Sadly, we are not at peace with anyone. I tried. Every turn, every CIV. For 20 turns.
We settled 2N1E. When we got AH, we found horses in our city.
We have to sign a peace treaty if we include a tech. So far, only Gandhi can trade techs, as only he has Alpha.
I noted that Degaulle went to Nationhood on Turn 3, Roosevelt adopted Representation on Turn 3, and Mao went to State Property. That either means certain techs or certain wonders.
Degaulle - Nationhood
Roosevelt - Constitution
Mao - Communism
I will guess that Gandhi has some religious civic and Victoria has some Monarchy possibly.
Gandhi founded Buddhism in turn 8
We have finished Fishing and Animal Husbandry, and next turn our worker is born.
Save is uploaded.
Sadly, we are not at peace with anyone. I tried. Every turn, every CIV. For 20 turns.
We settled 2N1E. When we got AH, we found horses in our city.
We have to sign a peace treaty if we include a tech. So far, only Gandhi can trade techs, as only he has Alpha.
I noted that Degaulle went to Nationhood on Turn 3, Roosevelt adopted Representation on Turn 3, and Mao went to State Property. That either means certain techs or certain wonders.
Degaulle - Nationhood
Roosevelt - Constitution
Mao - Communism
I will guess that Gandhi has some religious civic and Victoria has some Monarchy possibly.
Gandhi founded Buddhism in turn 8
We have finished Fishing and Animal Husbandry, and next turn our worker is born.
Save is uploaded.
Spoiler :
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Nice work, JH! We are (finally!) under way. 
Hmmm. Looks like several (and maybe all?) the AIs have the prereq tech for their favorite Civic. We will have to think about what effects this will have on each AI -- happiness from barracks and drafting for DeGaulle, boosted workshops and water mills for Mao plus no distance maintenance, etc.
This may also mean certain wonders will fall early -- DeGaulle can build the Taj right now, for example. Rather expensive at this point, of course.
But it may get built once he has 2-3 cities, which would greatly slow his development.
Horses at Moscow...OK, could be useful. Makes for a stronger tile, at least. Given fallout's effect on movement I am not sure if a chariot would be any faster scouting than a warrior, but it should not be any slower.
I am in the process of migrating to a new computer, and do not yet have Civ IV set up and necessary mods added. Hopefully soon. Can someone tell me which tile the horses appeared on?
Lack of peace...I was worried about this. I did the best I could to reproduce conditions in the test save, but from the different attitudes it was pretty clear there were differences. We are going to have to work harder -- and probably give away some techs -- to get peace.
Hmmm. Looks like several (and maybe all?) the AIs have the prereq tech for their favorite Civic. We will have to think about what effects this will have on each AI -- happiness from barracks and drafting for DeGaulle, boosted workshops and water mills for Mao plus no distance maintenance, etc.
This may also mean certain wonders will fall early -- DeGaulle can build the Taj right now, for example. Rather expensive at this point, of course.
But it may get built once he has 2-3 cities, which would greatly slow his development.Horses at Moscow...OK, could be useful. Makes for a stronger tile, at least. Given fallout's effect on movement I am not sure if a chariot would be any faster scouting than a warrior, but it should not be any slower.
I am in the process of migrating to a new computer, and do not yet have Civ IV set up and necessary mods added. Hopefully soon. Can someone tell me which tile the horses appeared on?
Lack of peace...I was worried about this. I did the best I could to reproduce conditions in the test save, but from the different attitudes it was pretty clear there were differences. We are going to have to work harder -- and probably give away some techs -- to get peace.
ianw1610
King
Hmmm... interesting about the Civic changes - although Roosevelt's favourite is Mercantilism, not Constitution. Of course, if De Gaulle has Nationhood he can build Taj Mahal right away, and if Mao has Communism he can build the Kremlin right away... and there is no free Great Spy for being first to Communism later in the game. Very interesting indeed - I wonder what other techs they hold......
-12 relations with everyone due to the sustained war... nasty...
I suggest we stick with the test game tech path and research Writing next to aim for an Academy as early as possible. I found no use for The Wheel this early in the test game (unless we want to build Chariots, of course). We may then need to research Alphabet ourselves, to start gifting away techs, and to clarify the position on who holds what!!
@haphazard1 We settled on top of the Horse, so no high-hammer tile for us unfortunately!!
Who is up for the next turnset? I'll happily volunteer myself if there are no objections...
-12 relations with everyone due to the sustained war... nasty...
I suggest we stick with the test game tech path and research Writing next to aim for an Academy as early as possible. I found no use for The Wheel this early in the test game (unless we want to build Chariots, of course). We may then need to research Alphabet ourselves, to start gifting away techs, and to clarify the position on who holds what!!
@haphazard1 We settled on top of the Horse, so no high-hammer tile for us unfortunately!!
Who is up for the next turnset? I'll happily volunteer myself if there are no objections...
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Figures the horse would be in the obvious tile. 
Not like we had much choice, though, this was by far the best site available.
Good point about no first-to bonuses for techs the AIs hold. We should also look at what other techs they may be able to research, although in most cases other prereqs will prevent the AI from grabbing additional advanced techs.
Wheel is needed to hook up resources, which we may need for health (cows) and happiness (gold). We are not connected to the river so we will need Wheel. The gold boost to the happy cap will be especially useful, maybe not immediately but very soon.
I agree that we want an academy very early -- our capital is going to be a monster city, and (eventual) Bureaucracy with two golds and some cottages will be a huge base for the academy to boost.
I have no objections to you taking the new turnset, ianw1610. I am not yet set up for Civ IV on my new machine, so I need to go later in any case.
Not like we had much choice, though, this was by far the best site available.Good point about no first-to bonuses for techs the AIs hold. We should also look at what other techs they may be able to research, although in most cases other prereqs will prevent the AI from grabbing additional advanced techs.
Wheel is needed to hook up resources, which we may need for health (cows) and happiness (gold). We are not connected to the river so we will need Wheel. The gold boost to the happy cap will be especially useful, maybe not immediately but very soon.
I agree that we want an academy very early -- our capital is going to be a monster city, and (eventual) Bureaucracy with two golds and some cottages will be a huge base for the academy to boost.
I have no objections to you taking the new turnset, ianw1610. I am not yet set up for Civ IV on my new machine, so I need to go later in any case.
ianw1610
King
Our capital is still only size 1, so we don't have an urgent need for The Wheel, to increase happiness and health. In the test game, I researched Writing at this point (I got The Wheel via a trade).
Does anyone else have any thoughts on what to research next - Writing vs The Wheel??
As for what to build next... should we go for a Workboat, to grow the city? Or a Warrior, to explore???
None of the AIs have yet met each other, which is consistent with the instruction that nobody started with any units to explore...
...however, some of the army sizes on the statistics screen are incredible... so it looks like one of the AIs (i.e. Stalin) is holding a stock nuclear weapons.
As for Espionage points, we are already struggle, as everyone else is forcing 100% of their points onto us.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on what to research next - Writing vs The Wheel??
As for what to build next... should we go for a Workboat, to grow the city? Or a Warrior, to explore???
None of the AIs have yet met each other, which is consistent with the instruction that nobody started with any units to explore...
...however, some of the army sizes on the statistics screen are incredible... so it looks like one of the AIs (i.e. Stalin) is holding a stock nuclear weapons.
As for Espionage points, we are already struggle, as everyone else is forcing 100% of their points onto us.
Similar threads
