Balance - Farms

Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers
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This component has been combined into the Balance - Improvements modcomp. This thread will no longer be updated.


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This mod was a request by Druin, and his reasoning was logical. I'll let him post the details.

  • Freshwater farms yield +1:food: with Fertilizer.
  • Can no longer farm desert without access to fresh water. This is mainly to help the AI.

This mod is now available in the Civ V Mod Browser (Main Menu > Mods > Browse Mods, search for "balance - ").


Spoiler Version History :

v. 1
  • First release.

Other version increases were changes to the mod name or description to make it more concise and clear, and do not affect gameplay.
 
Well, first off, thank you Thalassicus for using my idea!

Idea:

To improve the Fertilizer tech, as well as late game farms through the addition of +1 :food: to each and every farm (stacking with Civil Service) upon researching Fertilizer.

Basic In Game Reasoning:

Currently, there is no incentive to research this tech when your empire has even relatively few rivers / lakes because it is so easy to allow multiple cities access to those riverside farms. Also farms are relatively useless when a critical mass of Maritime city states are acquired.

Real Life Justification:

Fertilizer is not a substitute for a source of fresh water in farming. Presumably it allows "low water yield" farms to produce better crops and thus +1 :food:. However, it would also allow high water yield farms to produce superior quality crops that would grow in a more abundant fashion, thus providing more food / acre.

Further, more specific reasoning:

First, I actually skipped the tech entirely the last two Immortal games I played due to the fact that it is close to, but not required for the top 2/3 of the late game tech tree. You need gunpowder / chem for mil sci / steam power, but not fertilizer. This made me sad because I love the idea of techs that improve tile improvements but there was just no reason to take it because ...

Second, by the point in the game where I can actually tech Fertilizer I have replaced 90% of my farms with trading posts. My reasoning for doing so is two-fold. One, maritime CS's provide a lot of food by then. Two, the total yield of other tile improvements passes the farm. e.g. trading posts -> +2 :commerce: +1 :science:, Lumber Mill -> +2 :hammers: with the idea that if an engi specialist is +1 :hammers: for 2 :food: then +2 :hammers: must be > than +2 :food: on a tile. Probably not 2:1 but still a better improvement. So, if farms were a net +3 (+3 :food: from +1 farm, +1 CS +1 Fert) it would help make them competitive with every other improvement in the game.

Third, farms are a non-spammable tile improvement. You can theoretically build them everywhere, but with no caste-system to support infinite food, there are no direct benefits after the second, third, or fourth farm in a city radius (depending on other available resources). This means that, while +1 :commerce: to each Trading Post would be MASSIVE throughout an empire, even with a large (10+ cities) empire, +1 :food: per freshwater farm would never net an overwhelming gain in yield per turn unless you were lucky enough to get a million river tiles and played a science / specialist economy with many many many farms.

Fourth, if the change allowed people to set up a farm-based economy then I would actually consider the change a god-send. As it stands, there is only one viable economy type and I don't like that at all. If you could plan for Fertilizer to jump start your lagging specialist / farm economy then yay!

I do understand the idea of conserving balance, however I would argue that adding :food: to freshwater farms is, if anything, more beneficial to the AI who seems hell-bent on farm building as is :P And, let's face it, as it stands, giving the AI bonuses will just make the game more fun

Breakdown of Farm yields over gametime (all based on a grassland tile):

1. No Civil Service, No Fertilizer
--River Farm: +3 :food: +1 :commerce:
--Lake Farm: +3 :food:
--Grassland Farm: +3 :food:

2. With Civil Service, No Fertilizer
--River Farm: +4 :food: +1 :commerce:
--Lake Farm: +4 :food:
--Grassland Farm: +3 :food:

3. With Civil Service, With Fertilizer
--River Farm: +5 :food: +1 :commerce:
--Lake Farm: +5 :food:
--Grassland Farm: +4 :food:
 
Mod doesn't seem to do anything for me.

I loaded up a game where i already had fertilizer, but the riverside farm yields are unchanged.
 
I'm pretty sure all mods break save games. You can load the save, but it won't have any effect until you start a new game via the 'mod-menu'
 
I'm pretty sure all mods break save games. You can load the save, but it won't have any effect until you start a new game via the 'mod-menu'

I've already done this with several of the other balance mods by this author with no issues. This one seems to be the only one.
 
Yes, in general save games load alright. However, it appears that giving yield bonuses to terrain improvements is an exception. I noticed the same thing with the Mines & Lumbermills mod... when loading a save game the changes did not take effect. I suspect the game might have something set up so that when a tech is researched, it runs a database update on the yield of the improvement... thus, if you never actually research it (is simply set to "has been learned" as a flag in the save game) it doesn't increase the yield.

There's nothing I can really do about this until the c++ part of the sdk is released.

I've tested and these do take effect in new games, however.
 
Ok. Not a big problem. Just wanted to load a save with already developed land (and tech) to see how that yield would effect the empire.

guess i'll just have to wait until my next game.
 
The mod description in the mod download menu says +1 food, rather than gold.
 
Yes, have been considering :food: vs :commerce: bonuses, still deciding. v2 uses food. I'll update the information here to reflect it once a definite decision has been made. I'm experimenting with each type by running through games to the modern era.

What Druin and I have been discussing in PM's are the tradeoffs:

  • Druin points out +1:commerce: gives an immediate reward to researching Fertilizer, improves lake-adjacent farms when combined with the more frequent GA's in V, and a food bonus might weaken the value of certain food resources.
  • I've been considering that +1:food: gives flexibility in improvements and thus increases decision-making, streamlines with the already-existing non-freshwater bonus, and has precedent from earlier versions of Civ.

Just with numbers, the comparison is:

Type A:
4 farms = 12:food: 4:commerce:

Type B - one of:
3 farms + 1 TP = 12:food: 2:commerce: (+1:science: Free Thought)
3 farms + 1 mine = 12:food: 3:hammers: (4:hammers: Mines mod)
3 farms + 1 specialist = 12:food: <variable bonus>
 
Actually I feel pretty good about the arguments Thalass has made and I think I will change my vote to +1 :food: for all farms until further notice. :)

Precedent is a good force to follow!
 
I started a new game, and have reached fertilizer.. and im actually quite likin the +1 gold.

I already have food out the yin-yang because of city states, and the extra gold on my riverside farms means im less compelled to spam trading posts over them. 4F, 2G is alittle more useful than 2F, 3G IMO.
 
To me, the food bonus makes more sense, both logically and gameplay-wise. We need to make trading posts, lumber mills and farms different, not more similar.
 
To me, the food bonus makes more sense, both logically and gameplay-wise. We need to make trading posts, lumber mills and farms different, not more similar.

Yea, I still believe that + :commerce: could be more interesting, but I agree that +1 :food: makes more sense, is more intuitive and is reinforced by precedent.
 
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