SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

I share ParadigmShifter's concern here: I would be hesitant to trade Aesthetics to Industrious AIs while we are trying to build Aesthetics wonders. At least until we have a head start on the Parthenon.

If someone demands aesthetics though I'm up for giving it away though

There was talk that our tech rate is in the gutter... could be worth chopping the parthenon without maths, teching lit and building the great lib to up our tech rate... that would need some testing though.

I vote that Earthling trade Currency to Churchill for 40 and report back on whether Churchill will then be willing to trade us Math.

ChrisShaffer said:

I vote that Earthling trade Currency to Churchill for 40 and report back on whether Churchill will then be willing to trade us Math.

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That's an awfully cheap price to give currency away for.

Yes, I know, but the hope is that it will improve him to Cautious so he will trade Math and (something else?) for Aesthetics.

The only other choice is to self research Math which will put us back in binary research and take forever.

I'm happy to sell Churchill a tech, but I would sell the same tech to Roosie. He's our best chance to get Maths. Happy with either Aesthetics or Currency.

I feel we might as well start trading a few techs. The fair trading bonus is the easiest to get.

Sorry, you're right, I meant Roosevelt, who only has 20 gold. Here are the screenshots that show the trade relations.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9764793&postcount=917

OK, if we are willing to forgo growth in A-M, we can ignore all trades and still build Parthenon in 8 turns, completing it on the IBT after turn 116, 25AD and finishing Math the turn before. Literature is 3 turns away if A-M finishes its barracks and produces wealth for one turn. I've updated Chris test spreadsheet to match this. Neil et al, feel free to comments, suggest, etc.

As I see it, our choice is to proceed with pop 8 in A-M and no trades. Safe, easy, not very risky at all.

Or, we can give Roosevelt Currency for cheap and hope to trade for Math, allowing us to complete chops, build the Parthenon faster, and research CS faster. Risky, since we have no guarantee he will trade us Math and the only thing we have to offer is Aesthetics or CoL.

What do people think?

I'm skeptical that we'll get Math in trade, so I'd prefer to wait until Parthenon is near complete then trade Aesthetics for cheap, if need be, to get a diplomacy bonus. I'm not crazy about the idea of giving up two of Aesthetics/Currency/CoL for Math and a diplo bonus.

So I'll vote for safe, largely because I don't think we'll get the trade we want.

Trystero said:

I'm skeptical that we'll get Math in trade, so I'd prefer to wait until Parthenon is near complete then trade Aesthetics for cheap, if need be, to get a diplomacy bonus. I'm not crazy about the idea of giving up two of Aesthetics/Currency/CoL for Math and a diplo bonus.

So I'll vote for safe, largely because I don't think we'll get the trade we want.

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I agree. We should hang on to aesthetics until 1 or 2 turns away from building the parthenon (but watch out for Great Engineers if we trade 2 turns before). Have the pyramids been built yet? If so, when? (Can't be bothered checking, sorry guys ).

It takes 60 turns without a war to get the first 'peace' +1 modifier.
It takes 50 turns of us supplying a resource to get +1.
These aren't going to happen too soon. What we do need is a strategy to get them to a position where they will trade techs. Hoping for a shared religion is a good back up plan, but I don't want to be counting on it.

Once we get Roosevelt to cautious, he will trade (I checked the xml). We can wait, and hope that he demands a tech that we are happy to give him, or we can choose which tech, trade it, and hope that it moves his thinking by +1.

What are we waiting for? How are we going to get them trading with us ? When ?
Currently, we have 3 techs on nearly everyone, Aesthetics, Currency & CoL. Gandhi already has Aesthetics and Currency.

I feel that trading them a cheap tech is the only way to move their opinion in the short term.

If we are really worried about giving them Aesthetics, which I am not, then we should trade Currency. We can't worry about GE's building wonders, if it happens, it happens. I back A-M to build whichever wonder we want, the only AI who can maybe build it faster is Gandhi, as he already had al the pre-requisites (but maybe no marble).

So put me in the 'trade now' camp. We don't know that Roosie will trade techs with us, but I feel we should at least try.

edit: Fifth Element look like they are preparing an axe rush

Yeah I'd go with Neil, for the moment running a skeleton defense (albeit one that can be quickly improved) means we have to stay safe through diplomacy and the best (if somewhat random) way of doing that is through trades and giving into requests/demands. Religion would be quicker, but with the current religious fragmentation a lot more risky.

I go with trade stuff too. Remember "il nous faut de l'audace, et encore de l'audace, et toujours de l'audace pour sauver la république".

OK, we have a disagreement. Should we vote? Or can we come to consensus?

I'm not overly averse to trading aesthetics now, but would prefer to leave it a few turns. I think Gandhi will beat us to the Parthenon anyway.

If we trade for either Math or 104 gold (allowing more turns at 100% research), there will be no delay between completing the Parthenon and starting the Great Library.

If we get Math or we get Polytheism and Sailing or get an additional 350 gold (unlikely), there will be no delay on building Parthenon -> Great Library -> Mausoleum.

We could play one turn, research Polytheism, and see if there is more money available from the AI for Currency. The worst that could happen is Roosevelt has no money available for trade.

I'd rather have Earthling already knowing whether to make the trade next turn than play one turn and come back for more discussion.

ParadigmShifter said:

I'm not overly averse to trading aesthetics now, but would prefer to leave it a few turns. I think Gandhi will beat us to the Parthenon anyway.

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I think we have to play for the prize, and not play with the assumption that we have already lost the race.

I'm just a pessimist Hopefully we will get the Parth. A wad of cash for failure would be OK too.

Well I'm for trading definitely, but waiting a turn just to see what we can get should not hurt us either way, so I'm happy with one turn wait.

Culture graph is posted. We are in last place on culture. Weird.

More cities or earlier REX then for the others?