SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

I've been considering when to build the settler. I think we probably need to put out ~8 phants before we can afford to break unit production for a settler. We will probably be in a better position to evaluate this at the end of next set though.

I also think that we need at least 8 phants before we build anything else in Moscow. I think we need to weigh the benefit of another city (to our south) on the heels of adding 2-3 french cities to our budget versus building the GLib. We get 2 free scientists by building the GLib so I think that would be a bigger benefit at this point.
 
I hope we can kill France so dead that DeGaulle won't be able to consider settling, and better yet box him up in our newly conquered French cities, so that he can't expand at all.

It's possible that Churchill could sneak a city to the southeast as UT warns ... would be good to know how far away England is to the west of France. I hope the Chariot will discover this.
 
I think the solution to the possible blocker city dilemma is to settle both. We cannot pass up on marble if we want to build both epics and GLib. Beestar is correct, we need to know where the other AI are (probably Churchill) to know whether we are in a rush to settle south.

Then again, if there is another AI that close, we might be tempted to take out two AI early :p
 
I disagree on settling the Marble N of CI next. We need to settle the Southern City that is mark on the map first. This will slow the AI from settling between where we are now and our newly acquired french cities. Getting the marble will be nice but that site is not in any danger of an AI settling it any time soon. The southern city is in danger of DeG or someone else settling to the south and cutting our land in half.
Good point. Maybe near the stone?
 
Good point. Maybe near the stone?

I really like the spot marked 'GP Farm?' The stone is good too but it gets close to unknown territory that may have DeG cities in that we can't see.

The GP Farm site will block settling to the north with one border pop.
 
TS played till T108.
I stopped because I made stupid mistake that will probably cost us the scouting chariot.
Sorry to start with the bad news... will get back to that later.

Most of the stuff went as planned, except I forgot to fire the merchent in CI till turn T106.

Some non war notable events:
T101 - G wants HBR. I decline.
T101 - Ticatus thinks we are hopeless. We will see.
T107 - Christianity founded in a far away land (12 hours of flying from here, did it more than once). We lost the race to Theology (of topic: wasn't theology invented way after Christianity? Firaxis should check their history books).

Now to the French:
Spotted a stack of a sword and 2 archers @ T105.
Retreated the axe and worker to an hill right up north.
Scouting chariot was just arriving so I moved it SW away from stack. Another archer was revealed. The "big" (3) stack split with the swords going after the chariot.
I thought to escape with the chariot SW+SW but forgot that can only move one tile in fallout. Sword will likely kill him next turn. Sorry guys :-(

To support our war-road I moved the medic chariot and one of the phants toward the worker+axe stack. I think with a axe, phant and medic we will be safe to continue building the road.

Here is the autolog (sorry started it two turns late):

Turn 98 (425 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:31:53]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
100% Research: 99 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -7 per turn, 68 in the bank

After End Turn:
Cote d'Ivoire finishes: Granary

Turn 99 (400 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:31:54]
Cote d'Ivoire begins: Chariot (5 turns)
A Mine was built near Moscow
100% Research: 99 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -7 per turn, 61 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg grows to size 5

Turn 100 (375 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:34:44]
A Camp was built near Cote d'Ivoire
100% Research: 100 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 54 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Aesthetics
Moscow grows to size 8
Moscow finishes: Confucian Temple
St. Petersburg finishes: Catapult

Turn 101 (350 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:40:11]
Diplomacy (Help Request): Gandhi (India) asks Catherine (Russia) for Horseback Riding; Catherine REFUSES.
Research begun: Literature (3 Turns)
Moscow begins: Stable (3 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Catapult (5 turns)
100% Research: 97 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 46 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 102 (325 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:49:24]
A Mine was built near St. Petersburg
A Cottage was built near Moscow
100% Research: 99 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 38 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Stable

Turn 103 (300 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:51:05]
Moscow begins: Chariot (2 turns)
100% Research: 99 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn, 30 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Literature
Moscow finishes: Chariot
Cote d'Ivoire finishes: Chariot

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt (America) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 104 (275 BC) [21-Oct-2010 00:56:38]
Research begun: Music (8 Turns)
Moscow begins: War Elephant (3 turns)
Cote d'Ivoire begins: Barracks (9 turns)
100% Research: 99 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -11 per turn, 21 in the bank

After End Turn:
St. Petersburg finishes: Catapult

Turn 105 (250 BC) [21-Oct-2010 01:00:22]
St. Petersburg begins: Catapult (4 turns)
100% Research: 99 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -11 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: War Elephant
St. Petersburg grows to size 6

Turn 106 (225 BC) [21-Oct-2010 01:09:42]
Moscow begins: War Elephant (3 turns)
Chariot 3 (Moscow) promoted: Combat I
Chariot 3 (Moscow) promoted: Medic I
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 45 per turn, 4 in the bank

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: War Elephant
A Hamlet was built near Moscow
St. Petersburg finishes: Catapult
Cote d'Ivoire grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 107 (200 BC) [21-Oct-2010 01:15:40]
Moscow begins: War Elephant (3 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Catapult (3 turns)
 
Hi Havr, too bad about the chariot. It's not the kind of thing that can be prevented by a pre-play plan, we'll just need to be more careful next time.

These early skirmishes will be good to get our early units some XP (and then healing) while waiting for the later units to be built.

Good job getting the screenshot of Tacitus, that's the kind of information that isn't saved anywhere in the game log. Interesting to see we are so low in the AI power rankings. At least we are picking on the second wimpiest AI.

Tech

And rapid progress on the teching! We are doing well. Gandhi must be the one who got Theology, as I don't think anyone else has the Monotheism prerequisite. (I'm glad Mao has Judaism, as it's liable to turn into a Hindu lovefest over there.)

However, I think our Artist from Music is actually going to arrive too early to be useful. We only want to revolt to Slavery, if anything, and I think we don't have enough cities to really make the GA useful right now (and not enough specialists to make use of doubled GPP production during a GA). We are so far ahead of the AI that we can finish off Music any time we want. Can I suggest we backfill Monotheism or Sailing instead, which might be more useful in the short term? Or, tech Calendar to get the silk plantation online?

Diplo notes.

1. When do we make peace with Stalin? I think being at war makes us more vulnerable to dogpiles from the other AIs (and a sudden nuking once we discover Stalin). If we can grant him Writing and Polytheism for peace, I would take it.

2. If we trade CoL to Roosevelt for 40 gold, this could be enough to still get +4 fair trade diplo relations (and out of worst enemy). Then we can open borders and start accumulating +2 open borders. Also, the other AIs will start to accumulate 'Roosevelt traded with our worst enemy' enmity with Roosevelt. And even this small amount of gold will be useful to help run max slider for an extra 2-3 turns.

Exploration

Interesting to see what the workboat has revealed. Does this look like a map of the Earth to anyone else? We're in the east coast of the USA, snow-bound Canada stretches to the northwest, and we've got Greenland to the northeast. The nuking has created more bays and inlets than the real world. If my prediction is correct, the workboat is currently just south of the island of Iceland, and will soon meet the UK / Europe.


Finally, check out the power graph on gotm.civfanatics.net. We appear to be the only ones gearing up big for early war. Whether that's a good or bad thing will be proven in a few months :D
 
Good job havr! The chariot got painted up in a corner, not much to do. Its usefulness was limited anyway.

I'll just do a status again so we can plan the next set.

Tech and trades
Gandhi did go for Theology. He also has Metal Casting. So he is no slouch on tech speed (as we would expect).
I think it is likely that he will go for Aesthetics next (he likes that path). But there are many techs he could chose.
DeGaulle looks very weak techwise. I think we have a very large window of facing no worse than swords.
No-one else has made significant progress it seems. Everyone else still has sailing and archery. No-one has calendar yet, since it shows up under the can research column for everyone with math and sailing.
If we offer aesthetics to Gandhi, he will give us sailing+mono+65:gold:. This is max value since he has 100:gold: for trade. Let's pull the trigger on that one, so we don't lose value from him researching Aesthetics himself.

Scouting
There is an island chain north east. I guess the workboat can just continue to scout that way.
The northlands are indeed isolated. So they can be settled at will. I see two good sites (marble/rice/deer/silver site and corn/iron/wine) and two marginal (fish+deer, and 2xdeer, 2xfur) and a whole lot of useless tundra and ice.


Cities
Moscow is size 8 and working as it should. We can benefit from health to gain one more food (deer from marble site will do)

StP is stagnated at size 6 as intended, working nicely on pumping out catapults. Still the silk forest to chop.

CI is a bit behind on worker turns. Set to grow to size 6 in four turns. One mine is nearly complete, the other still needs both scrub and mine. I think we should route additional workers there asap to get it online to up production.

Troops
Three catapults, two phants and an axe so far (the offensive part of our troops anyway).

Diplo
Both Churchill and Roosevelt are in WHEOOHRN mode, and we are their worst enemies.
This means that we need to watch out for them of course. But since they can only come from one direction, and we are pumping troops, they should do little more than be a source of XP if they attack.

Edit: By the way, we are close to enough EPs to see Gandhi's research. Two or three turns should do it.
 
Suggestions:

Remember the discussion about extra hammers from overflow from discounted builds? We have a good chance to leverage this now, if we want a settler (I think we can afford it, given DeGaulles slow tech rate)!
StP has a huge overflow, which will almost finish a settler (10:hammers: short). This means that if we switch to settler 1 Turn, then back to troops, then CHOP the remaining forest into the settler (possibly with even more overflow if we time the chop right).

As I am writing this I realize that an axe is 35:hammers:. StP has 17 base :hammers:. So two turns of production will be 34:hammers:. We want one more axe anyway.
So we can do exactly this: Switch to settler this turn -> Switch to axe for two turns -> Switch to catapult until chop is two turns from complete -> Switch back to axe -> Finish axe with 16:hammers: overflow -> Switch to settler and complete chop -> Finish settler.
If I am not mistaken, this will yield an amazing return:
-The overflow from the axe will double as it goes towards a settler, meaning 32:hammers:.
-The settler will cost 10:hammers: more to complete with 32:hammers: from the axe overflow, 34:hammers: from double base production and 60:hammers: from the chop added.
-Total overflow should amount to 32+34+60-10=116:hammers:, which should become 100:hammers:+16:gold:.
-Half that is going to be just plain hammers invested given the indifference of build order when it comes to discounted builds + normal builds (as beestar demonstrated earlier)
-So subtract 58:hammers: and our profit is 42:hammers: and 16:gold:. Not too bad :D
Disclaimer: Since I am nowhere sure of the weird rules of overflow, we should of course TEST this.

Settling the marble site: I think we should do it (with a settler from StP). We want it for various reasons:
-Without marble soon, and if we trade aesthetics to Gandhi, we can forget about GLib.
-The HEpic can be built soon. And it is such ridiculously powerful building that we want it ASAP.
-Silver and deer will allow all our cities to grow another pop.
-It can support numerous riverside cottages. Those are good to get going soon.
-It will more than pay for itself quickly, with silver available.
-We are looking much better on worker turns now, meaning we can probably spare at least three workers to get it running fast.

Workers and units
-Have the remaining StP worker chop the silk forest to complete the settler overflow scheme, then clear the fallout from the other silk at StP, then cottage the remaining grass tiles at Moscow.
-Have the other two workers help the CI ones build those two mines. Then have three work the marble site. The remaining scrub/cottage the northern grass tile at CI (CI can help grow it since it is shared with the marble site).
-The two working on the road should continue that, with the support of our newly produced elephants, who should eliminate the roaming french units along with the axe. The axe should try to gain two XP so it can get a shock promotion.
-I believe we want most of our elephants to promote down the combat line. So our first ones can freely take CII to improve combat odds against the roaming archers and swords. Of course we want a few with shock to attack spearmen in cities, and at least one ready for the charge promotion if DeGaulle somehow manages to get to catapults (he still lacks writing).
 
beestar said:
However, I think our Artist from Music is actually going to arrive too early to be useful. We only want to revolt to Slavery, if anything, and I think we don't have enough cities to really make the GA useful right now (and not enough specialists to make use of doubled GPP production during a GA). We are so far ahead of the AI that we can finish off Music any time we want. Can I suggest we backfill Monotheism or Sailing instead, which might be more useful in the short term? Or, tech Calendar to get the silk plantation online?
I think that since we will see Gandhi's tech soon, we can afford to switch to something else. If we trade for Mono and Sailing, then calendar seems like a good choice, since we have the silks, and it can probably be used to trade for Monarchy from Gandhi.

beestar said:
1. When do we make peace with Stalin? I think being at war makes us more vulnerable to dogpiles from the other AIs (and a sudden nuking once we discover Stalin). If we can grant him Writing and Polytheism for peace, I would take it.
Good point. I guess there is no point in not making peace for cheap.

beestar said:
2. If we trade CoL to Roosevelt for 40 gold, this could be enough to still get +4 fair trade diplo relations (and out of worst enemy). Then we can open borders and start accumulating +2 open borders. Also, the other AIs will start to accumulate 'Roosevelt traded with our worst enemy' enmity with Roosevelt. And even this small amount of gold will be useful to help run max slider for an extra 2-3 turns.
Maybe, but I am worried about him being WHEOOHRN. Give him techs the others don't have and he might bribe them into war too.

beestar said:
Finally, check out the power graph on gotm.civfanatics.net. We appear to be the only ones gearing up big for early war. Whether that's a good or bad thing will be proven in a few months
I like that, even if most teams are have not played far enough to tell yet.
 
Good job Havr, pity for the chariot, maybe you colud have took a risk and attacked the archer.

Fluro, i noticed all your good ideas, what about take in charge next TS? Then i'll take next if no one arrives.

Where do you think to use the settler you mentioned? N or S?

Dotmap anyone?
 
I can take charge of a turnset over the next week or so if that's appropriate.

Fluro, you've almost made the PPP already! I could have a look over your comments and provide a full PPP over the next couple of days.
 
It's all yours dredd :)

BLubmuz said:
Where do you think to use the settler you mentioned? N or S?
Dotmap anyone?
I attached a suggested dotmap of the north. I did list a whole lot of reasons why we should settle the marble site, so I am sticking with it.
The red sites are the good ones, the yellow ones are marginal, and best left for much later.
I am not too concerned about AI settling the south, since:
-If it is DeGaulle, well, then we'll just take it in the war.
-If it is someone else, then we have two nearby AI = incentive for a 2nd war (they will probably do the DOW for us anyway).
-There is so much room to expand that we don't really want too many cities at a great distance, at least before we get Oxford. The sites with gem/stone are too far away for my taste right now.
 

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Gems/stone is hard to resist for Oxford build boost, gems luxury happiness, the commerce of a gems mine, and the happiness from Forges with gems. It's not too much farther than French lands ...

Actually with silver and gold, picking up Metal Casting is looking tempting. Only drawback is that it will no longer be a monopoly tech, and Gandhi may start trading it around.
 
Does anyone know how to add hammer-overflow to a city in WB (or add a specific number of hammers to a current build)? I'm not sure that chops are exactly the same as overflow for testing Fluro's suggestion, so I'd prefer overflow.

I'm working on a test game with Moscow and St P terrain correct. Current work-in-progress attached for interest. We're looking for 43 overflow in St P.
 
@dredd. If we put the current overflow into a settler, then it will just have 90 hammers (IIRC). How those hammers got there should not matter. So if you can just recreate that situation the test would be valid from there on. You can switch to settler in the real game to see how many hammers there will be next turn.
 
Does anyone know how to add hammer-overflow to a city in WB (or add a specific number of hammers to a current build)? I'm not sure that chops are exactly the same as overflow for testing Fluro's suggestion, so I'd prefer overflow.

I'm working on a test game with Moscow and St P terrain correct. Current work-in-progress attached for interest. We're looking for 43 overflow in St P.

Probably the easiest way is to open the file a text (after you save is as WB file) and modify it directly. I can't tell you the exact modification that needs to be done, but the file is pretty much self explanatory.
 
Tested Fluro's idea and it doesn't work that way. I ended up with 56 hammers overflow from the settler, so something isn't doing what we think it does.

When the axe completes we have:
17 base production
16 overflow from axe
30 from chopping
=(17+16+30)*1.5 = 94.5 and then the settler costs 10 more to complete.
So our overflow should be 84.5, but instead it is 84.5/1.5 = 56.

So it doesn't seem to matter whether the chop goes into settler or something else. I may as well chop the forest though anyway.
 
OK this is an in-progress PPP, please comment!

First up check peace from Stalin for Writing and Polytheism (can do this soon, if agreed, before playing the rest of the set)

Tech:
(trade for sailing + monotheism)
Calendar: 5 turns (this opens up MOM and also lets us build plantations)
Then I think it's time to head towards Education, if we are aiming for laurels. Do we want Philosophy or Paper first?

Workers:
-Have the remaining StP worker chop the silk forest, then clear the fallout from the other silk at StP, then cottage the remaining grass tiles at Moscow.
-Have the other two workers help the CI ones build those two mines. Then have three work the marble site. The remaining scrub/cottage the northern grass tile at CI (CI can help grow it since it is shared with the marble site).
-The two working on the war road should continue that.

Troop deployment:
Our new elephants both get Combat II and attack French archers and swords on flat tiles.
Keep stacks together - don't allow any wounded units to be isolated.
The axe should try to gain two XP so it can get a shock promotion.
Is it worth moving some cats out to gain XP? after we have a 10 XP elephant of course.

Cities

Moscow
Elephants
@ size 8, work 2 cows, 2 gold, iron mine, 2 cottages, and switch between clam and scientist +1 to -3 surplus to avoid growing to size 9 before we get more happiness.

StP
Can complete 3 Cats in 5 turns (5*17 = 85 + 43 current overflow + 30 chopped forest = 158). This makes 6 Cats in total
Then settler (4 turns) - the marble site won't be ready much earlier than this
Then elephants (3-4 turns each) - assuming that 6 is enough cats?
stagnant @size 6

CI
Barracks -> Axe (stack defense) -> Spear (stack defence) -> Axes (MPs in French cities)
grow to size 6, working 2x grass mines

Diplomacy
Trade Aesthetics to Ghandi for Sailing + Monotheism + 65 gold. These are tech's we need, so we are saving 4 turns teching.
No peace with France.

Scouting
The missionary explores NE.
Workboat checks South first then East. I don't think that we want to find Stalin too soon.
 
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