r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 11,219
Spoiler :
let me have a comparative analysis here . When the Ottoman Empire was obviously defeated in the Great War , Mustafa Kemal was not in rest , he worked hard to do something , maybe he was part of the Ittihadists that ruined the country and he wanted to save himself by staying on top , maybe he was as patriotic as Turkish history teaching has him . He asked to become the War Minister , was refused . Then the Allies needed somebody to disarm the Turkish armies in the East , so that Armenians could win enough territory to be worthy of protection by the Allies . The world was just out of a maelstorm , colonial escapades on their own was not well accepted .And the guy to disarm the lot had to be someone with gravity , reputation and a cool head . So that the Pontic Greeks could rise up and make their own state as well .
when ı was just out of teenage years and into full suspicion of the world around me , ı was directed to a couple of books where ı learned Kemal talked with a high ranking Italian diplomat , maybe named Count Sforza , right before he left for Samsun and it caused further wounds to the history teaching ı had in school . You know there are times you must demolish a thing to build it again .
so what's the deal ? Instead of being the lonely hero who inspired people to fight the invaders after a decade of unbroken misery and defeat , where he was the only beacon of light in the doom and gloom of a dying once glorious empire , Mustafa Kemal was a guy who outran his remit . The Allies ( the French and the British ) were mistaken to think that he was a danger if left in Istanbul , where he could organise an Ittihadist resistance of sorts . Even more mistaken in assuming he was a regular Ittihadist , ready to bark and bite and wave the waggy tail as and when commanded by foreign masters . He was once the aide of Vahdettin , the padishah who ordered him to organise some capability of resistance , without causing too much trouble , so that the Allies could be brought to the table to actually make a deal with the Throne ; an American Mandate was seen as the best option . A Greek invasion did not enter to it as they had a substantial population in the remaining Ottoman lands , if they broke away the rump would have been only busy starving . The mission of Mustafa Kemal died the day before he was set to sail . When the Greek Army landed in Izmir on the 15th of May , 1919 .
would he follow the orders from abroad , or strategy from the Throne , if there had been no Greek invasion ? Of course not , but that is not exactly the point .
history depends so much on when it is written . When the revolutionary history was cast into concrete by the Nutuk of 1928 , a long speech Kemal had at the party congress , even the deals of 1923 were in disarray . There were many in the country who didn't oppose a single strongman , a dictatorship . If they themselves were this strongman , the dictator . Ittihad had come back in good order and there are serious limits to how dictating a dictator can be . Kemal was already a prisoner of the system he had created .
that system was of course always opposed . At the times of my teenage years as mentioned above , there was this liberal goverment at the helm that had the mission of "globalising" this country and a certain Islamist , still famous in 2012 , came up with things unheard before . For example , the revolutionary myth makes much of the ship that took Kemal's group to Samsun , it is reported to be old , small and totally uncapable of doing the trip , it didn't even have a compass .Hence the trip in itself was an odyssey of heroism and Turkish patriotism ... In primary school , when ı was growing this affinity for military things and checked what little amount of references were around , ı would look at the ship's only drawing and wonder what its tonnage or dimensions were . Probably because it wouldn't make much impression on the fishermen who sailed in rickety boats , the history books would never have the numbers . Well this Islamist had made the effort and found them from British register . Omitting to convert them though . So Bandırma became a transatlantic with a height of 70 meters . 70 feet from the keel to the top of the masts would have been quite allright . Yes , you still will not find the true numbers about Bandırma ...
so what happened ? Throne's desire to have a core of military power to have a bargaining chip at the diplomatic table was realised . Though the Allies had no desire to talk . French aspersions were sort of easily defeated , as they already had huge problems in Syria . The British had no means to impose their will and it took some time to build an actual army , instead of a talking point . Which went onto defeat the Greeks . Our Eastern borders were meanwhile "secured" by the Reds who needed a buffer against the West they were not ready to face . While all these were happening Istanbul did manage to shoot itself in the food . Damat Ferit , married to a daughter of a Padishah , was governing at the time and he was a proper toady of the British . Had the roles been reversed and his opponent had actually married likewise to become Damat Mustafa Kemal Pasha , Ferit would have been shot to be replaced by a capable person , a liberation army would have been raised to kick the hell out of the invading Greeks (*) and Kemal Pasha would have managed to keep the throne afloat . By possibly commanding that liberation army when the time came . Because you know there were a lot of talking to have some "Crown Prince" in Ankara .
thinking that the British were invincible in this new world where there were nobody left to oppose them is what doomed the Ottomans . Yes there were a lot of people who wanted them in place , so that the authority of the Throne could be used as " the kingmaker " , there were tons of wannabe dictators . Kemal was actually capable on his own ... You still can not make the Ottoman family openly talk against Atatürk , though his "people" are easy ... Even in this new Turkey , where mentioning Nutuk in any capacity can become the first step in your incarceration as a coup-plotter .
it is so fashionable to berate the old , the leaders of the 1980 coup are soon to be in court . The event is hailed something great by the commentators , who accuse the two survivors as bloody murderers who watched while the country burned , waiting for the situation could mature so that the country would accept a military intervention . And the commentators include the whole spectrum of colours and views . One particular guy excluded . In my teens ı had seen this thin storybook where a distant nameless country had suffered a godless dictator who had oppressed religion and honest people who believed in God , naturally there weren't any honest people who didn't believe in God . The dictator was also a pedophile . The guy whom ı always believed to be the author of the book , was in trouble for molestation of a minor and the PR for his release include him arriving in court with his belt hanging from the sides , bog standart senility aspect . A "sad" decline for the guy who always bragged to be first person who murdered for Islam in Turkey .
leaves a healthy bunch of people in abundant numbers , and influence . With one particular guy who is such a democrat that it escapes attention that he was among the people who burned the country for coup to happen , ı hear he was number two to the "fascist" who ran Istanbul . This "fascist" dude will probably be more familiar to Western intelligences as the guy who organized the assasination attempt on the Pope in 1981 . Yeah , no need for them in Turkey . Meanwhile the presence of the said democrat in a history society founded by Kemal was so unbearable that he had to resign ...
even people who oppose the new Turkey are for it in a way . This obviously leftist guy who made a movie/documentary on Kemal could not bring himself to declare the Ittihadists had "jailed" him in former Ottoman palaces , between womanising and the bottle , using his good intentions to reform the country in the exact same way Moscow was creating the "Soviet man" and his reputation was the one shield against the counter-revolution ... Instead his late-night drinking bouts were explained by the "humane" explanation he was afraid of the dark and didn't want to remain alone . ı have seen perfectly reasonable people declaring that movie maker was in the pay of foreign countries to dishonour Kemal , by his heavy drinking , smoking as noticed by 10 year old movie goers "interviewed" on TV , womanizing and fear of the dark , so that the new Turkey could go forward .
mustafa Kemal has been dead since 1938 . And the newly elites have obviously failed to ask the Ottoman family why they never took part in rebellions against the Kemalist state .
the reason for all the rambling ? Winning the deal gives you the right to write the history and omit the unsavory . Now that ı won't be offering any evidence on whether Petain sent de Gaulle to England to fight in his name without disclosing it , some entrance of this kind is necessary . Yeah , the unspoilered part will be thankfully much shorter...
(*) ai , martian tripods galore , a joke that makes sense if only the reader is familiar with my sorry existence .
maybe ı should also have part of my entry in post #40 of this thread which relevantly says
... As usual many of my views are not shared by regular history and ı don't claim to know better . Nor ı intend to "dis" people who have dedicated themselves to the study of history in a professional or amateur capacity.
so , we would somehow have a major anomaly where German forces were more successful than they had any right to be , the Allies were hugely demoralized and beginning to fall apart , as an alliance . The Wikipedia article , which seems to be quite in favour of Petain , tells on May 24th , the French PM Reynaud told the Marshall that an armistice was necessary . The Brits were moving out instead of attacking South , to cut off the Germans and no British fighters were around , apart from the topping of RAF already in France .
having some kind of writer's block right now , let's say by June 1st there was an absolute feeling of necessity for the French goverment of the day to bring Petain back into the game . This is some backroom stuff that has no relevancy in the eyes of any student of history , it just happens . Simply people know people and the rapport or at least familiarity of the old days provide a basis of understanding , somewhere to start talking . That would be exactly why the British represantative to France , Mr. Spears , would threaten Petain with blockade and naval bombardment if a ceasefire with Germany took place on May 31th , as reported by Wikipedia , something ı am newly aware .
we have already seen the break between de Gaulle and Petain in this thread and ı won't doubt the "antagonism" . Though this unmentionable back room thing presumes an unbreakable bond among the party that can be identified , the French are to be a solid block . De Gaulle takes his orders from Petain , for the duration . There is a war going on , the unavailable Spitfires has cut a bloody swathe in the ranks of the Luftwaffe and Germans are relieved the thorn of Dunkerque has been removed without too much fuss . Which seems bloody betrayal to the French , to those who remember how perfidious Albion could be in the days before Entente Cordiale . Mind you , the French are actively joining London in name-calling the Belgians for chickening out of the war , treason is in the air .
which is reinforced by the improvised German attack that immediately follow the evacuation . It is one of the more obscure parts of the WW2 , only because the initial French resistance was so hard that it doesn't make sense in the established narrative of the Second World War . Anyhow , no doubt influenced greatly by the fact that France had lost nearly half of its army in May, it came to an end .
as said blocked for the duration . Besides the Turkish language forum where ı asked for anectodal reinforcement convinced me that my planned piece would be too against de Gaulle and too for Petain . Considering his flag and the idea that the term fascist is supposed to be derived from some sort of ax , the result might not be exactly good for me . Maybe ı can get enough spirit in the weekend to make another r16 thing .
so apart from the notion that Vahdettin sent Kemal to the East , and courts charged treason and Kemal had military support from the Russians ... Sounds familiar ? Not that ı would be convincing without the blockage .