Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

I am absolutely sure that this mod will not be to everyone's liking .... especially with the current move towards shorter games. Maybe, on the other hand, this mod can be seen as an attempt towards creating a truly Massively Single Player (MSP) version of Civ 4. Indeed, this idea (when tentatively proposed on another "Epic Mod" thread) has already been branded as being totally insane. However, I am convinced that every "hard core" Civ player sure play this type of Truly Heroic Mod at least once in their lifetime before they move on to their next game.

I have followed the various "Epic Mod" threads appearing in this forum with great interest as they all seem to offer something slightly different to (and generally better than) the current "not-so-epic" GameSpeed option offered by Civ 4. [The "Glacial" (by Stone-D)and the "Ultra" (by ) mods readily come to mind .... the era's proposed by Stone-D in the "Glacial" mod are especially useful due to their historical accuracy].

Therefore with this fact in mind, I would like to propose the "Truly Heroic" mod with the following breakdown of era's and turns:

Ancient:

8000BC - 800BC (7200 years)

Divided into 1200 x 6 year turns


Classical:

800BC - 800AD (1600 years)

Divided into 800 x 2 year turns


Medieval:

800AD - 1440AD (640 years)

Divided into 320 x 2 year turns


Renaissance:

1440AD - 1760AD (320 years)

Divided into 320 x 1 year turns


Industrial:

1760AD - 1920AD (160 years)

Divided into 160 x 1 year turns


Modern:

1920AD - 2000AD (80 years)

Divided into 80 x 1 year turns


Future:

2000AD - 2200AD (200 years)

Divided into 200 x 1 year turns


I fully realise that this more historically accurate rendition of human history will strongly emphasize the Ancient (especially), Classical and Medieval eras at the expense of the more modern eras (which imho appear somewhat over-represented by Civ games). Sure there have been many more technological advances over the past 100 years than throughout the rest of history but the Modern era is merely a brief interlude in the continuum of human existence.

Therefore I strongly feel that it would be entirely justifiable to significantly expand their role in the game in order to provide a far more accurate and balanced version of human history and civilization. Of course, it might well be desirable to attempt to "flesh out" the early tech tree by including a series of new (and relevant) technologies to master .... perhaps various techs that were included in some of the earlier Civ games (including the CTP series) and/or some of the more established mods (such as the DYP, Ancient Mediterranean and Ages of Man mods) could be added to the current Civ 4 tech tree.

I think that the progression through the tech tree should try to mirror the various eras of the game in order to reinforce a sense of historical accuracy. (It imho would seem rather peculiar to be able to research plastics in 2000 BC!!). However, by contrast, I think that it would be extremely interesting to retain the current "Epic" (or even "Normal") GameSpeed for building, terrain improvement and unit creation. This development would ensure a faster paced game within the various historically accurate eras .... in other words, one would be able to either build some fairly well-established cities and/or
large armies throughout the course of the game.

Therefore both Empire Builders (with the well-established cities and terrain improvements) and Warriors (with the large armies) should enjoy a truly epic version of the game spread over a period of several days (maybe even weeks) rather than (say) 5 to 10 hours.

In addition, I strongly feel that this mod could serve as the basis for an "Uber" mod which could incorporate other mods that would add to the prolonged gameplay afforded by this "Truly Heroic" mod. For instance, additional resources might add an interesting challenge (together with possible additional technologies). However, I would not be too keen to change the default rules of Civ 4 merely for the sake of doing so .... there must be an extremely good reason for doing this.

a full 3080 turns? That's not truly heroic, that's truly bloody insane! I love it!

Ad Hominem said:

a full 3080 turns? That's not truly heroic, that's truly bloody insane! I love it!

Click to expand...

I just playtested approximately 2500 turns of a game slated to last around 3500 turns (won before the end). So while you may indeed be a loon, you have company. ;-)

Max

I have already begun on a similar mod.
I already released my FexFX - Bigger & Longer mod which offers an 758 turn game and a 1000 turn game...
now I am working on one that goes a step further than your proposal even by offering three speeds ~2000 ~4000 and 6050 Turns.

The biggest challenge is keeping it from getting dull
the 1000 turn game pushes things about as far as they can comfortably go without being just a "wait another turn" game rather than a "Just one more turn".

To this end I have begun working on a Mod to change the entire game, double, or triple the tech tree through subdivision of techs, as well as adding new techs, buildings, units and wonders...

I am in the planning stage right now for the tech tree, but the first thing I did was make sure that I could add techs and Buildings COMPLETELY without having to skimp...
the only skimp I had to settle for was no new 3d building graphic. I can live with that. I got everything else working!

If you'd like we could turn this into a discussion of what techs should be in such a game and how they should relate to the existing techs and the existing units, buildings, religions, civics, and Wonders...as well as what new items we'd need.

I've been working on the ideas stage for a couple days now.

Ad Hominem and Maxpublic

It is great to see that there are others who share my insane vision.


FexFx

I think that it would be an excellent idea to discuss your proposed mod (which pretty well covers my suggestion). We could continue this thread or (possibly better) open a new thread dedicated to your proposed mod.

Just one thought .... maybe it might be better (more effective) for you to limit your proposed mod to a single "out-sized" number of turns (rather than include the three separate options). By doing this, you would be able to concentrate on a single version of the enhanced tech tree and other balancing options .... otherwise you just might risk spreading yourself a little thin with this project.

As there has been a LOT of talk about expanded Civ 4 games, I really think that your proposed mod is not only extremely viable but that it should also prove exceptionally popular.

Maybe, when some definitive groundplans have been laid, it might even be possible to try to liaise with Firaxis to see whether they have any suggestions, etc.

I like the ideas you are suggesting.. I really want longer games.. However I am worried about the possible 'dullness' and also distancing from reality. Namely discovering and interacting with the world.

With so many turns one could have the entire world mapped by the classical era or by the end of it. That would be unrealistic.. as the ancient people lacked even the interest to go so far.. or the few who wanted lacked the ability. With the possible exception of Alexander. In order to control the game I offer following ideas:

1. Find a way to increase units cost based on how far they are from your cultural borders. Not just 'in or out' of your region.. but really make it matter how far you move from your country.
+ This would limit early contacts and keep the world undiscovered.
- The problem here is the AI who cannot probably take this into consideration when doing his early game exploration.

2. More barbarians earlier. Roaming and cities, both.
+ Since you would be expanding more slowly and less contact in the beginning, you still want to fight.. and it is also historically more accurate.. Both more fun and lifelike.. what else do you want?

3. Script in random events. This project is already being worked on by others. Natural disasters for sure.
+ Would make the early game even more a struggle even if there is still no AI in sight

Just to stress my point once again. I think that maintaining a constatntly expanding frontier that you cannot see past is very important for the game feel.

Alphard

Thank you so much for your reply.

Yes .... I think that it would be extremely important to:

• Avoid unnecessary dullness .... hence my idea of retaining the default building rate. This should (as previously mentioned) lead to the formation of a larger number of more complex (developed) cities as well as the development of fairly large armies much, much earlier in the game. Of course, the player would have to decide how s/he wishes to best employ these options.
  
  [In other words, would s/he wish to do some expansive building (my personal favourite) or would s/he desire a series of epic-sized battles. I certainly don't think that this mod would really suit someone who is keen to employ a "rushing" strategy because this would most certainly lead to a premature end to the game (in the Ancient or Classical era). ].

• Retain a sense of historical accuracy. I actually think that this is a really important consideration. Indeed, if one reflects upon Man's true history from circa 8000 BC (my suggested starting date for this mod), there was (as you correctly state) very little early contact between the various cultures. This probably only occurred several thousand years later. I agree that it could be an extremely interesting gameplay exercise (as well as historically accurate) to actively encourage the early separate development of the various ingame civilizations.
  
  I suppose that playing THREE or FOUR civilizations on a really big map would facilitate this process!!

In reply to your suggestions:

LIST=1

Possibly some form of increased attrition outside of one's cultural boundary (possibly Barbarians) might prevent too much early exploration beyond one's (fairly) safe confines. Maybe the Scout should only become available considerably later in the game?

LIST=2

This suggestion is beginning to sound rather a lot like my earlier scenario suggestion of "Just me and the Barbarians".

LIST=3

Maybe .... although I freely admit (as somewhat of a builder who likes seeing his Empire (and its component cities) slowly but surely expanding across the map) that this would not be my preferred option. However, I agree that it should be seriously considered as a non-compulsory option.
[/LIST]

Thank you again for your ideas!!

Hopefully other people might also now feel inclined to enter this debate .... as this type of "maxi" game should be easily able to accomodate all sorts of embellishments and elaborations .... as long as they are both historically accurate and remain faithful to the ethos of Civ 4.

DOUBLE POST!!

I like it.

Having already tried to speed up building process in Epic games (since I like units and fully developed cities to linger a bit longer before becoming obsolete) I found out that one obstacle is that especially in early game, before the time you are allowed to build Wealth or Culture, you run out of things to build (you cannot build more units as it becomes too costly). So one thing you have to address is having some sort of Wealth or Culture building allowed earlier than in normal game.

Second thing is that, since you are extending the length of earlier game, you will need either more inventions to fill the time up in early game or extend the time needed to research early inventions.

All in all, I will be looking forward to the mod, though.

Martinus

since I like units and fully developed cities to linger a bit longer before becoming obsolete

Click to expand...

INDEED!!

is having some sort of Wealth or Culture building allowed earlier than in normal game

Click to expand...

Yes .... this sounds like an extremely good idea and an elegant solution to the problem that you highlighted. Perhaps some additional early structures to compliment the obelisk (various statues and the like) could achieve this purpose.

[Btw: I am a great fan of the classic CB (City Builder) games and (quite frankly) I cannot see why several of the aesthetic structures that are included in these games (such as statues, fountains, gardens, pagodas, etc) could not be introduced into this longer and more evolved version of Civ IV. After all, I would view this Truly Heroic mod as being far more of an Empire Building experience than the default GameSpeeds appearing in the Vanilla Civ IV].

you will need either more inventions to fill the time up in early game or extend the time needed to research early inventions

Click to expand...

I am personally in favour of the former. When combined with my above extra cultural building suggestions, this should permit a much more expansive (and holistic) gameplay experience for the Ancient and Classical eras.

1200 turns in ancient age..... u probably won before u hit classical

Panzooka

Maybe .... but with some safeguards (mentioned above) as well as the additional technologies to research and structures to build, there might well be a LOT more to do before trying to overrun one's neighbours.

Obviously, as stated above, it would be advisable to play this mod fairly slowly (as a building rather than purely as a rushing experience). This imho would be one of the major benefits of this mod.

Maybe moving some civics a bit back in time would also help making the game more interesting?

One ideas for such earlier advance:

- City State - prerequisite being Civil Service - allows adopting Representation, and building of an Agora building (works like Obelisk).

Martinus

Yes .... the Greeks had their City States (such as Athens and Sparta).

Perhaps the Agora could act as the precursor to the Marketplace (although I am not too sure of this one)?

Before going into such specifics as what the Agora really was (nothing to do with a marketplace, btw, think of it as the Greek equivallent of the Roman forum) we have to think of a fitting name for this mod. I am suggesting ...

...

(anxious yet?)

...

L.I.V.E.L. MOD.

L.I.V.E.L. is an acronym. It stands for Ludicrus Insane Very Extremely Long.

We could alternatively use L.I.T.T.L.E. MOD, which is more fun and stands for Ludicrus Insane Tantalizing Truly Long Epic

What do you think?

Ad Hominem

Thank you for your reply!!

Yes .... I totally agree with you that the current title for this proposed mod is not very good.

I, too, think that it would be great to choose a suitably snappy acronym to incorporate the essence of this concept.

.... Totally Long Epic (TLE) could (should) certainly imho form part of the title. Maybe Ludicrous and Insane might prove a trifle off-putting?

B= Building
A=?
T=?
TLE= Totally Long Epic

How about that?

P.S. Maybe we should start considering additional Ancient and Classical era buildings/structures to incorporate into this proposed mod?

Yes .... I am not a historian. THerefore I am not totally au fait with the exact function of the Agora.

Oh, come on SoM, be a sport: you are missing the delicate irony in naming "little" a mod that is bound to span for 3000+ game turns and 10.000 years of human history.

I think we should call it little (actually LITTLE)

BTW I am quite certain that spanning the game before the Bronze age is not going to be very productive. I don't know if there is one mod for Civ3 or even Civ2 that goes as much back as 8.000 BC but I think we should stick with 4.000 BC, just make the ancient times last Insanely looooooong. I mean, where's the fun in having a military unit called "Arrgghh" or something like that, armed with a club and wearing only a skin around his loins... oops... wait, this sounds familiar Or go for such an early start but speeding up everything before 2.000 BC considerably (like, the first 6.000 years taking about 100 turns only or something along those lines).

As for ancient buildings and such, we should not go on reinventing the wheel, there are ample mods (with the most prominent of those being TAM who deal specifically with the era and have a tech tree and a building and unit list we can adopt to our needs and change accordingly. Meaning, that's the easy part: Actually coding the whole thing together will be much harder. And we haven't gotten into the harder part yet: actually playing it

Okay, First off.
The Only way to work this to make certain things happen is to use a bigger map than huge.
I already have a stable map size that works just fine on systems with 1GB of RAM.
See "FexFX - Bigger & Longer" for details.
I believe that any map smaller than that will feel cramped in an ultra long game.

1000 Turns is good on Huge, but FX-Huge feels even better for that.

I imagine 2000 Turns would feel a tad Cramped on Huge...and probably just about right on FX Huge...

Above 2000 turns I believe one would need to either make a bigger map still (impossible with most systems), OR...

OR limit growth and movement in the early game!

I am already working on a revised tech tree concept.

For example, I have placed Boat Building AFTER Fishing and BEFORE Sailing.

This makes it so that with Fishing you ONLY get food from water squares (nothing before then). Boat Building lets you make work boats and drop nets, but they only move at 1 unit. Sailing allows those boats to move at 2 units instead of one and grants the second naval unit. The NExt thing up the chart is Navigation which allows Lighthouse and Sea Trade Routes.

Notice that there are no new units listed in this progression, just new techs! However these new techs also offer the opportunity to add new units and new buildings! Perhaps Boat Building allows you to make a "Boatwright" which is required to build "Boats". And perhaps sailing allows a "Shipyard" required to build anything larger than a workboat.

Tha same things are happening on the land.
Heck you cant even build a settler until you discover Expansionism which comes AFTER Animal Husbandry.

You cant build The Wheel or a Boat until after you have discovered Carpentry.

And why would anyone mine before the Barter System?

How can you do agriculture without "Plant Lore"? HEck Before Plant Lore you can only have a maximum of 1 food per tile because its hard for you to figure out what's good to eat.

And Agriculture may let you take advantage of Corn and Wheat, but it wont let you build a farm...that requires "Cultivation"...which leads to Domestication because you need a tame animal to pull that Plow...But to domesticate animals you must have Animal Husbandry so that you have experience with Pigs and Cows first...

By breaking down the early techs and allowances further, you can SLOW the game down while still allowing constant evolution...

HOWEVER I feel that the previous stated goal of maintaining the original production speeds in a game as long as we are proposing is INSANE! Think about it...3080 turns (the stated original goal which is half of my stated goal of 6050) is 7 TIMES loner than a NORMAL game length...Do you really feel that 7 times the number of units is desireable? In a game where you are besieged by 20 arrchers(a large number) that would mean you;d instead be besieged by 140 Archers...MADNESS!

Now, I am not saying we need to make things cost 6 times as much (that would be boring and slow) but how about 3 times as much...that would mean MORE THAN DOUBLED production across the timeline...or 46 archers instead of 20 or 140...

Ad Hominem

I think we should call it little (actually LITTLE)

Click to expand...

Okay .... I have a great liking for irony.

I think we should stick with 4.000 BC

Click to expand...

I am most certainly open to suggestions!!! Perhaps the turn lengths might have to be correspondingly deceased:

Ancient:

4000BC - 800BC (3200 years)

Divided into 1600 x 2 year turns

As for ancient buildings and such, we should not go on reinventing the wheel, there are ample mods (with the most prominent of those being TAM who deal specifically with the era and have a tech tree and a building and unit list we can adopt to our needs and change accordingly.

Click to expand...

Yes .... a truly excellent idea!!!

Imho, there is NOTHING clever in re-inventing the wheel .... however, as you so correctly suggest, the challenge lies in trying to adapt this (these) mod(s) to cater to the requirements of this particular LITTLE mod.

Indeed, there are MANY excellent mods that should be thoroughly examined (i.e. TAM; DYP, AoM, etc).

And we haven't gotten into the harder part yet: actually playing it

Click to expand...

I really look forward to that!!