The Netherlands and the East India Company

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Geppenguin

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Now that the EIC has been confirmed as a National wonder, does this mean that the Netherlands might be getting a UA revamp? I find it mildly interesting right now, but the civ just doesn't seem interesting enough gameplay wise for me to try it. At the very least, does anyone think that they might rename the UA? Not that I can think of any suitable names...
 
There's a demo vid now (it's featured on civfanatics'home page). The Netherlands have not been changed mechanically. The only difference is that their UA now reads “Dutch East India Company".
 
I_qua_I said:
There's a demo vid now (it's featured on civfanatics'home page). The Netherlands have not been changed mechanically. The only difference is that their UA now reads “Dutch East India Company".
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the UA was always called Dutch East India Company...
 
After looking at the traits.xml file, the Netherlands UA is called Dutch East India Company. So I'm guessing the Netherlands have not been changed
 
There's no change. I don't really see why it should be changed either, it doesn't have anything to do with the new trade route mechanics. Ideally it should have something to do with trade routes considering the history of the Netherlands, but I'd rather they change some of the other UAs instead of this one.
 
Giskler said:
There's no change. I don't really see why it should be changed either, it doesn't have anything to do with the new trade route mechanics. Ideally it should have something to do with trade routes considering the history of the Netherlands, but I'd rather they change some of the other UAs instead of this one.
Click to expand...

I think with the lack of early gold in the beginning, there should have been a change. The only benefit the Dutch UA has to the Arab Bazaar was it's early game use, just in my opinion. Now since gold is so much more scarce, it's going to be hard to use it effectively at the start.
 
Giskler said:
There's no change. I don't really see why it should be changed either, it doesn't have anything to do with the new trade route mechanics. Ideally it should have something to do with trade routes considering the history of the Netherlands, but I'd rather they change some of the other UAs instead of this one.
Click to expand...

Which ones? If I had to name UAs that could still use work, I'd name:

Germany (too similar to the Zulu in playstyle, particularly with a pikeman UU)

Mongolia (always of somewhat marginal use, and without obvious thematic relevance)

India (the UA actually isn't as bad as India's other uniques, but progressive changes to happiness in G&K and BNW have made it increasingly less relevant. Plus portraying India's defining feature as overpopulation borders on insulting given the country's important and varied history).

Netherlands (reasons given in this thread).

That's pretty much it given the changes to Arabia and super-bland France. It's not very clear what aspect of America's "manifest destiny" the UA is supposed to represent, but I've been playing America recently (trying to get 'win the game' achievements for civs I haven't used), and it's more useful than it looks. Quickly (and cheaply) buying territory is a good way to expand your borders to increase unit health regen during wars (or blockade civs you don't have open borders with), and +1 visibility is very good if a little underwhelming as a core part of a UA.
 
PhilBowles said:
Which ones? If I had to name UAs that could still use work, I'd name:

Germany (too similar to the Zulu in playstyle, particularly with a pikeman UU)

Mongolia (always of somewhat marginal use, and without obvious thematic relevance)

India (the UA actually isn't as bad as India's other uniques, but progressive changes to happiness in G&K and BNW have made it increasingly less relevant. Plus portraying India's defining feature as overpopulation borders on insulting given the country's important and varied history).

Netherlands (reasons given in this thread)..
Click to expand...

This was discussed in numerous threads. Overall public conclusion is:
- Mongolia is good as it is.
- Germany and Netherlands need changes.
- Russia, Japan and America need buff.
- India has separated opinions. Some people claim it's weak on higher difficulty levels, some claim the opposite. Anyway, there are some changes related to it in BNW so we'd better see it in action first.
 
Germany will be a little more interesting with the new Barbarian units. And I love the Dutch in G+K but I agree with less early gold they're fairly neutered here and could use a change.
 
German and Indian UA need to be changed. I've hated the German UA since vanilla, it's terrible, they were a lot more fun to play in Civ IV.
 
Giskler said:
German and Indian UA need to be changed. I've hated the German UA since vanilla, it's terrible, they were a lot more fun to play in Civ IV.
Click to expand...

Germany would be OK if it was only tweaked. Especially with new barb units.
(ie 100% instead of 50%)

India I tend to agree they give too much of a hurt to early expansion. (and probably too much of a usually unneeded help to later game... they will be devastating as communist culture gamers)
I'd probably restate it to focus on growth in large cities directly... extra growth means that you will benefit best by staying tall.
 
Happiness is still an issue early game, and the Dutch advantage there allows for faster expansion. So does selling luxuries for gpt. Is that as good as selling it for 240g? No - but everyone else has been similarly squeezed in terms of gold, and slowed down in terms of growth. It's good enough most of the time to get you a bought settler in your first four - with luck, two. So the early Dutch edge remains.
 
Txurce said:
Happiness is still an issue early game, and the Dutch advantage there allows for faster expansion. So does selling luxuries for gpt. Is that as good as selling it for 240g? No - but everyone else has been similarly squeezed in terms of gold, and slowed down in terms of growth. It's good enough most of the time to get you a bought settler in your first four - with luck, two. So the early Dutch edge remains.
Click to expand...

You could also buy an early building or trade lux for lux for 6 total happiness.
 
Too bad, the civ could really use a buff. I hoped there could be some incentive to have a ITR with the Dutch, or an incentive to have Open Borders.
 
Montov said:
Too bad, the civ could really use a buff. I hoped there could be some incentive to have a ITR with the Dutch, or an incentive to have Open Borders.
Click to expand...
International trade routes would have been a wonderful aspect for the Dutch to create a UA out of it so I find it very unfortunate that Fixaris didn't use the opportunity. Happiness has been changed though, so perhaps their UA remains strong. But I have small doubts, and am worried that the new trading rules could be a problem for early and good trading for the Dutch.
 
What I'm hoping for here is that the luxury resources traded away by the Dutch still count as luxury resources they have (like the happiness listing would indicate) - trade route gold gain is partly based on the amount of different luxury resources you have, it seems, and that might be a small indirect buff to the Dutch trade routes.
 
Tinker said:
What I'm hoping for here is that the luxury resources traded away by the Dutch still count as luxury resources they have (like the happiness listing would indicate) - trade route gold gain is partly based on the amount of different luxury resources you have, it seems, and that might be a small indirect buff to the Dutch trade routes.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter whether you are trading the resources away or not - it's not the resources you have that get the Resource disparity gold bonus, but the improved resources within the cities (the one you go from and to).

In other words, you know how, even if you trade away your last Gold, you can still build a Mint in the city that has it close-by? This is exactly the same.

For a more in-depth look, let's imagine this scenario:
You are playing as Greece, and you have the city of Athens with Gold, Wine and Iron. You also have the city of Sparta with Silver and Copper. The AI is playing as Japan, and in Kyoto, it has Gold, Salt and Horses, while it has Citrus and Spices on Tokyo.

If you made a Trade Route from Athens to Kyoto, this would have been the resources you'd get bonus from:
Wine: 0.5
Iron: 0.5
Salt: 0.5
Horses: 0.5

You would NOT get the bonus from Gold, because both Athens and Kyoto have Gold in their radius. You would NOT get the bonus from either Sparta's or Tokyo's resources, because you are making a Trade Route from Athens to Kyoto. This bonus would maintain even if you trade away your last copy of Wine, because you still have Wine in Athen's radius.

Hope I made sense! :)
 
What is wrong with just being friendly Dutch people and getting the lump sum gold that way? You can make a DoF almost immediately and the Dutch are historically mostly diplomatically neutral.
 
What I think needs to be changed is their apparently weak coastal start bias. At least half the time Amsterdam is founded on a land-locked tile while Spain and Madrid seem to be on the coast 100% of the time.
 
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