Stop Whining About Whiners!!!!!

Ok, now I'm whining about those that are whining about those that whine about the game!

Seriously, if you are one of those blasting those who have complaints - many of them quite legit - chill!!!

Geez, a lot of these people are probably eating Top Ramen for the next two weeks after shelling out their hard earned money on this game.

Personally, I love it. I'm confident that firaxis and sid will eventually fix the inordinately large quantity of bugs. Face it, people, there are A LOT of them. The game WAS rushed. It was shipped INCOMPLETE since it didn't come with MP.

I know I won't be censored by a few guys that get all flamed if anyone dares talk any smak about firaxis or sid.

As I said, I don't seem to have as big a problem dealing with some of the bugs that others are complainging about, and I love the game on a whole, but I don't blame anyone for being a little upset at the quality of an obviously rushed game.

The best products are spawned from constructive criticism from users.......

Hell, the best things in the world are spawned from constructive criticism.

Big difference between bringing up a valid problem or bug and whining just to whine.

Criticism does not = whining

Nothing about this game seems "rushed" to me.

As has been said before, Civ2 shipped without multiplayer.

I personally don't ever plan on using the multiplayer. I don't know anyone patient enough to sit through an entire game.

Also -- stop whining about the whiners? What, so it's ok for them to whine but we can't whine? Whats up with that?

MultiPlayer is really unnecessary in the first release of some games, and civ3 is one of those. Any1 needs at least a few weeks to get to play the game, a month to REALLY get to know the game, and a few of those to master it on medium levels. The popularity of civfanatics was due mostly to new things dug out about civ2 4-5 years after its release, so 1-2 years is just enough for people to get ready for MP.

As has been said before, Civ2 shipped without multiplayer.

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When civ2 came out initially, a great deal of us didnt even know what the internet was I bet.

I started using the internet when it first came out and at that point, there were no multiplayer games period, and no civfanatics center either.

Games must get with the times. Stay current. Or quickly find themselves in the discount rack

It was a different time...a different age of gaming...this is 2001, not 1996 :crazyeyes:

I really hope I don't have to wait 1 to 2 years for Civ3 MP to come out Ecco. I happen to feel differently from you about MP. When Civ2 came out there weren't as many multiplayer games out. Nowadays almost ever game that comes out has multiplayer support. I would rather Civ3 come out without MP and later be patched than wait forever just to play the game. I will probably play Civ3 for a few weeks, get bored with it, b/c of no MP, and let it collect dust until MP supprt comes out. MP is the meat and potatoes for me.

Well...I didnt play much multiplayer with Civ2 cuz it just took too much time and commitment...Civ3 on the other hand, Firaxis has already stated they were working on some innovative mulitplayer options, so hopefully, they are making some real progress with how multiplayer will work in civ3, something along the lines of---SPEEDING UP THE GAME--- cuz we all know, civ3 is about 3-4 times longer than civ2...good lord if they except us to play multiplayer that way...

Now you know one. I'd rather play a game that takes 3 months to play, only playing a few hours on weekends and the occasional 'sick day', than play withe, er, by myself.

To me, this game will be absolutely awesome with 4 human players and 4+ AI players.

Those of you that have never played Civ multiplayer, I think you'll be in for a treat once civ3 finally has it.

Diplomacy is ok against the AI in this new format, but will be a whole new animal when dealing with real, unpredictable humans....

Actually, salad, that was supposed to be funny, kind of. Hey, you can complain about me complaining about those who complain about those who complain about the game if you want. Don't let anyone tell you you can't!

1 or 2 YEARS before MP, Ecco?????

I sure hope you don't know what the heck you're talking about. I believe they are targeting sometime next spring for the MP release.

Besides, I'd imagine they'll be working on Civ4 by then

Otherwise, I'd be like the angels, er, palehorse, and never drag it down from the top of the closet. I will get tired of playing with myself eventually.

And they definitely need to improve the whole MP speed thing. It does take a long time. I hope they at least explore the 'simultaneous moves' option thatwas available in some of the civ2 games. Never tried them, but it's a possible alternative to going one at a time.

Hey, stop whining about the whiners whining about the whining. So, I'm whining about your whining about whiners who whine about whining :crazyeyes

As far as the product being rushed. Sure it was. It's been how many years now? They obviously had an inflexible deadline to get this out in time for the Xmas season. Otherwise, what, wait another year?

As a programmer myself, there's always a trade off between the features you can support and the schedule that you are working to. Sid and his people likely had a pretty inflexible schedule foisted upon them by marketing weenies. Seldom do programmers win against marketing. When you must get a product out on X date, and you can't get everything that everyone wants in it, you obviously have to cut features.

Things like multi-player--which I agree is essential in modern games--and scenarios and such are obvious features to cut as these are "add ons" vs the core game itself. They did the right thing in getting the core game out. No doubt these other features will be coming. There's funny bugs, but that's the case with EVERY piece of software ever released. All software has patches and service packs, especially "1.0" versions.

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Originally posted by VoodooAce
Actually, salad, that was supposed to be funny, kind of. Hey, you can complain about me complaining about those who complain about those who complain about the game if you want.

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accursed causes of causoidal causation!!

I think the game rocks..I have yet to see a pikeman killing a Panzer, but that's because so far I've run out of time in a game before I can to that kind of tech(yeah I know it's German's only, but now I mean tanks in general) but yeh scenarios kept me playing civ2 for years, I'd like to see some cool ww2 scenarios in civ3

Originally posted by CeasarSalad
Nothing about this game seems "rushed" to me.

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Same here. I think most of the "bugs" people are complaining about have to do with the game working differently from their perception of how it should work. That does not constitute a bug; that's an adjustment to a new game.

I've only heard of one or two legitimate bugs, though I have not encountered any in over 30 hours of play to date.

I WILL whine about the whiners, here's why:

I don't firaxis to get the idea that they represent the community.

They don't. They are uninformed (don't read the manual, etc..) and unimaginative players (MY ARCHER on a HILL ought to be able to DEFEND against a WARRIOR!)... Yuck.

So drink THAT whine you whiners!

I guess what amazed me, being a newbie here (but not to Civ) was that I started lurking about a month ago, trying to find out what would be in the new Civ that someone bragged about at Straight Dope.

So, I came here and followed things every day. The excitement was tremendous. The home page linked to a list of features that grew and grew by leaps and bounds practically every day. These were incredible things that everybody was really gah-gah over.

Firaxis failed to deliver on NONE of it. (Not counting a couple of bugs, like for air defense.) And all of a sudden, just a couple of days after release, the bi+chers and moaners hit the boards with a vengeance. And you think THIS is bad, you should see the snobs at Apolyton. Suddenly Sid is the devil, and all the good people at Firaxis are deliberate con men who set out to defraud and mug us.

Yes, constructive criticism is a good thing, and something that Firaxis would probably appreciate. But it doesn't take a whole lot of empathy to see that they might resent the unbelievable mob mentality that has taken hold here. People are saying they hate the game. Good lord, that's outrageous.

We were told the game was very different. We licked our chops at the thought of playing this new way. Instead, we loaded up the game, threw out everything we had discussed for the past month, and tried to play it like Civ2. Beaten badly, we came back here and whined like babies.

Yes, there are some bugs. But good heavens, how 'bout some perspective here? Let he among us who has written a bug-free non-trivial piece of software cast the first stone.

yeah, well, a lot of things need to be kept in perspective.

Criticism, for instance?

I mean, Firaxis might resent our complaints?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

So, what, they were doing us a favor, or something? And now, since some are pissed, they'll stop taking our money? Doubt it.

I think it stands to reason, in a free, capitalist society, that if people are unhappy about a product that they paid for, they have every right to ***** about it. And they will, too. And those selling the product being complained about can either improve their product, or go out of business for lack of sales.

I'm not *****ing about the game. Mostly, I'm fine with the game, other than the bogus MP thing, which I DO understand (so no further explanations are necessary, thank you). I just hate seeing so may people flaming on those who do have complaints.

I do not disagree with the fact that there are significant problems with the release build of Civ III.

However, I don't agree with the tone in which a small number of people choose to bring these problems to the group. During my brief time in QA, I learned two rules for communitcating with the dev team.


1) Don't insult the dev team. Everything you say before or after an insult is ignored, period. It doesn't matter how right you are, human instinct kicks in and they shut their minds to listening to you.


2) Describe the problem, don't offer solutions. Go to great lengths to convince the team of the seriousness of the problem and to let them know how it occurs, but leave the fixing up to them. If you have a suggestion, offer it as suggestion, not as an ultimatum on how something should work.


I've found these to be pretty good rules for communicating in general, but especially when dealing with the dev team. Teams tend to be isolationist, a tad bit rock starish, and have a bunker mentality.

Whenever I see someone start off their post with "Those lazy, moronic greedy bastards that gave us this game need to do "X" or I'm returning it." I think great! If a dev team member reads this are they A) likely to continue reading, or B) just hit back and think to themselves, 'fine return it you punk.' and not return to these boards as often.

That is why I flame the flamers. Not because they have invalid points, but because by flaming the team, they make it less likely that the problems are dealt with.

There are a couple people that are trying to get things done the right way. There is a great bug thread running around this sight, where people are listing the problems they find. I bet that Firaxis checks that thread quite often.

Kamosa

Not totally true, dearmad.

I've seen complaints from those I know to be experienced....maybe even a moderator, or two?

Can they not also say that you are not representative of the community? Seems to me we are ALL representative of the community. Shoot, we ARE the community.

Just because they disagree with you doesn't mean their opinions don't count.

Firaxis needs to hear it from all sides, is all I'm saying.

I mean, Firaxis might resent our complaints?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

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Was that supposed to relate to something I said? No, I don't think Firaxis would resent our complaints. What I think they would resent is our bloodthirsty, random, mindless, mob-mentality hackjacking. I know I would resent. Hell, I do resent it, and I'm not even Firaxis.

[...shrug...]

Maybe all this is a good thing. Newcomers will have a great game they will enjoy, unjaded by misconceived strategies that no longer apply. Meanwhile, the so-called hardcore Civ players can move on to something else. And from the way they seem to behave, good riddance.

Kamosa makes excellent points. Our tone and our manner of complaint are evidence of our disingenuousness. No one is against complaints. That's a straw man. What we're against is gang rape.

OOOHHHHHH! I see.

I was getting my roles mixed up. Lol, I was thinking it was Firaxis' job to please ME, the customer.

But you guys have set me straight on that one. It is I that has to please them, or at least be sure not to piss them off to badly. Whew! good thing i was set straight on this, or I would have foolishly continued to demand my money's worth.

Again, the disclaimer that I for one, love the game. The main issues I had with it can and will be fixed (air superiority, etc...) thanks to those in the 'community' that continue to post them.