A couple annoyances with the Doviello upgrade system...

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Fafnir13

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Well, not so much the system itself but some side effects of it.

Researching bronze working (enabling Sons of Asena) makes it so that you can't build beastmen. Am I forgetting things or is this the only civ that has this happen to their warriors? Their are times when the few extra turns it takes to build an axeman can mean life or death for a city. Border cities especially suffer from this. Also removes the octopus overlord specific strat of building and drowning warriors to get out a rapid army of drown.
I think this one falls under a larger issue of potentially useful units becoming obsolete, like the Calabim Morois.

The second annoyance I've encountered is that, upon completion of iron working, their unique ability to upgrade meant I had to go around to all my cities and upgrade each group of sons into battlemasters. Is their anyway to allow alt key functionality like regular upgrading?
 
In addition, I think its slightly OP that the Doviello can get a massive army of battlemasters in 3 turns (with enough gold). Simply Purchase loads of slaves with slave trade, upgrade to beastmen, then sons, then battlemasters. Insta-Doviello Crushing Army!
 
westamastaflash said:
In addition, I think its slightly OP that the Doviello can get a massive army of battlemasters in 3 turns (with enough gold). Simply Purchase loads of slaves with slave trade, upgrade to beastmen, then sons, then battlemasters. Insta-Doviello Crushing Army!
Click to expand...

I think you're confusing "overpowered" with "awesome."

That said, we'll see if I still feel that way after a game or two as Mahala.
 
Fafnir13 said:
Well, not so much the system itself but some side effects of it.

Researching bronze working (enabling Sons of Asena) makes it so that you can't build beastmen. Am I forgetting things or is this the only civ that has this happen to their warriors? Their are times when the few extra turns it takes to build an axeman can mean life or death for a city. Border cities especially suffer from this. Also removes the octopus overlord specific strat of building and drowning warriors to get out a rapid army of drown.
I think this one falls under a larger issue of potentially useful units becoming obsolete, like the Calabim Morois.
Click to expand...

This is a balance issue. If you could still build warriors players with enough gold would never build anything but, and then upgrade them (rather than spend the additional hammers on actual sons or battlemasters). So its a bit of a limit on an already awesome mechanic.

The second annoyance I've encountered is that, upon completion of iron working, their unique ability to upgrade meant I had to go around to all my cities and upgrade each group of sons into battlemasters. Is their anyway to allow alt key functionality like regular upgrading?
Click to expand...

No easy way Im afraid.
 
I've noticed that Moroi get obsoleted ( by vampires ) very fast in my last Calabim game, and it made me kinda sad. :(

I still think that UUs with a unique ability that's missing from its upgrades should never obsolete ( moroi with burning blood are a good example, same with sidar's divided souls and others )

alternatively, upgraded versions of the UU should all have that same unique ability.
 
Kael said:
This is a balance issue. If you could still build warriors players with enough gold would never build anything but, and then upgrade them (rather than spend the additional hammers on actual sons or battlemasters). So its a bit of a limit on an already awesome mechanic.
Click to expand...

I think you think this mechanic is more awesome than it is, at least in strength terms. You say "With enough gold" but that is a balancing factor like anything else. "with enough gold" you could build nothing but disciples, and upgrade them to priests. The whole point is to give the Doviello something unique to do, to make them more effective at producing high level troops. By Taking this away as they progress, it really negaitvely effects the play experience... the further you get into the game, the less fun they are to play.

Also, in more general terms, the Doviello are far from the 'strongest' civ right now, and still at just about the bottom of the barrel. Hard to argue that any of their effects are being dampened because they would be too good otherwise.
 
Lade said:
Forgive me for being a newbie at the Doviello, but how are their upgrades different from any other civs?
Click to expand...

The Doviello can upgrade some of their units though spells, thus allowing them to be upgraded without any building requirements and far from any cities. You don't even have to have founded any cities yet to upgrade you units.
 
[to_xp]Gekko;7571771 said:
I've noticed that Moroi get obsoleted ( by vampires ) very fast in my last Calabim game, and it made me kinda sad. :(

I still think that UUs with a unique ability that's missing from its upgrades should never obsolete ( moroi with burning blood are a good example, same with sidar's divided souls and others )

alternatively, upgraded versions of the UU should all have that same unique ability.
Click to expand...

I agree that UU like moroi (in particular) should not become obsolete but I'm not sure about the abilities staying if you upgrade.
 
Perhaps with Moroi the ability to upgrade to Vampires, with channeling and access to death and body magic, should only be granted if they actually have been gifted vamparism - which would fit in with the lore, that Moroi only got to become Vampires by showing themselves worthy (in this case, reaching level 6). The idea of building a bloodpet and then for some coin turning them into a vampire seems out of place. But I agree that losing the burning blood promotion so early is a pain.
 
The moroi can become vampires at level 4 I think (earlier than most units) I'm sure it's been suggested before that they don't become obsolete but it has never been implemented, why?
 
I dont like obsolete morois too )
They can become vampires very cheap if you can give them exp, and burning blood is also very great.
 
You know, Bloodpets already never go obsolete (since you need them fr the Feed spell). You could just build them and upgrade them to Moroi, couldn't you?


I am personally of the opinion that Vampires should have a level requirement. It seems odd that you can't gift vampire to a Moroi until level 4, but you could just pay to upgrade it to a vampire at level 1.

I personally think that the Body 2 spell (which vamps can get) should give Burning blood to other melee units in the caster stack, but not the vamp. I could also be ok with giving Brujah's a spell that grants everyone in their stack Burning Blood. I also tend to think that Brujahs and normal Berserkers should both start out Crazed.
 
That's what I do, but it's not what I would call good gameplay. If player's are showing willingness to sacrifice the benefit of the manor just to gain access to a unit, that tells me it is far from obsolete no matter what the code in the game thinks. They are the perfect kamikaze unit for the Calabim which fit in nicely right above the undead hordes but below their vampiric overlords. That they can upgrade a few levels early makes it even better as you can get some strong vamps without having to feed on your cities.
 
[to_xp]Gekko;7574446 said:
I tend to agree that vampires should not be buildable and should instead need to be upgraded from lvl 4 morois.
Click to expand...

That would make vampires a little less insanely powerful. On the other hand, it would be a challenge to get moroi to level 4 late in the game when the enemy units are so much bigger. It would also kill your ability to rebuild a decent army after a major defeat.
 
To be fair, normal Champions would probably need a level requirement too. Or maybe Vampires should just have higher base strength than them instead of lower...
 
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