Told ya.
Looked at the save, Toku's espionage is 10:8 => 5 turns * 2 => he knows someone else.
SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Looked at the save, Toku's espionage is 10:8 => 5 turns * 2 => he knows someone else.
OK, I've had a brief look at the save. First impression is that I don't really know where to go from here. 
OK, some thoughts, I'll just throw them out there:
Espionage: might be useful to see Toku's demographics and maybe research, so distributing all esp points to him for a short time might be good.
Settling site: I still don't feel strongly about it... we need a coastal city. I think the blocking site is OK, and now that we need axe anyhow to get the juicy west coast pi/cow/fish site, we should start making axes. Another settler, too, eventually up by the blocking sign. Don't stop expanding!
Tech: fishing is only 1 turn, and its not a tech we'd trade for anyhow, so we should do that next. Then I think alpha-lit to build GLib (maybe we can snag the marble by then).
Diplo: Toku won't open borders until we share a common war. However, we are constrained to deny all requests to declare war on X (at least until we find some of those darn resources), which is going to hurt when it comes to diplo voting time. Cross that bridge when we burn it.
Narri is UP, so I'd love to hear what he's thinking.
Edit: btw, I hope the first linbe in the PPP says something about switching civics to Bur....
OK, some thoughts, I'll just throw them out there:
Espionage: might be useful to see Toku's demographics and maybe research, so distributing all esp points to him for a short time might be good.
Settling site: I still don't feel strongly about it... we need a coastal city. I think the blocking site is OK, and now that we need axe anyhow to get the juicy west coast pi/cow/fish site, we should start making axes. Another settler, too, eventually up by the blocking sign. Don't stop expanding!
Tech: fishing is only 1 turn, and its not a tech we'd trade for anyhow, so we should do that next. Then I think alpha-lit to build GLib (maybe we can snag the marble by then).
Diplo: Toku won't open borders until we share a common war. However, we are constrained to deny all requests to declare war on X (at least until we find some of those darn resources), which is going to hurt when it comes to diplo voting time. Cross that bridge when we burn it.
Narri is UP, so I'd love to hear what he's thinking.
Edit: btw, I hope the first linbe in the PPP says something about switching civics to Bur....
That someone else is Zara, duh! Unless we met Toku more than 5 turns ago. Indiansmoke?
NOT A PPP!
It's a good time to think and talk about a lot of issues. Though I segregate these topics, note that they are all dependent on each other.
Civics:
YAY I GET TO PUSH THE CHANGE TO BUREAUCRACY BUTTON!!
Are we going to be whipping with those 2 corns or supporting scientists? Caste System instead of slavery might be called for here to run an artist in new cities until border pop, especially for cities close to Zara (or the northern 3xclam + cow + marble spot!). Or whip with the 2 corns to speed up expansion while CS-boosted hamlets/villages keep us going strong?
Cities:
Delhi - Going to be a monster CS capital commerce-wise with those hamlets so early and Silver. Bad news is cutting all those trees did hurt healthwise. I think next will be a granary for health timed before growth to pop 7. Do we want to go Confu and go to pop7? Do we stall at pop 6 again after granary and give back the corn? Then what? More axes and workers and settlers? In what order? Where the hell do they go?
Bombay - Without the 2 corns, almost a garbage city. With the 2 corns, a very cheap short-term GP farm (though there are probably better spots around). Or a mass axe-whip area. Our choice.
Dotmap wanted.
Barbs:
Does anybody know what garrisons barb cities have on Emperor? And when the garrisons turn to longbows? Those vile barbs are actually doing something good for us! How fast should that city be taken? The power gain we would have would make it harder to get Zara to declare on us.
Great People:
Scientist - Academy in Delhi (duh!)
Engineer - Save for Glib/Sistene/CreateCon?
Anything else - hold.
Tech trading:
WFYABTA. The bane of our existence. We are going to have to think about what we backfill through trade. Of course there will be a pause after Alpha is obtained.
Diplomacy:
If we want Diplo, we are going to have to play the Diplo game (and without declaring war very much to boot!). Meaning we have to figure out how to deal with demands the AI gives us (especially since it is nearly impossible to pause a turnset to figure that out...argh!). To me, this means we have precalculated responses to AI demands. So all PPPs from now on (until we win or are certainly going culture instead) should have a plan on diplomacy to make excellent friends and stupid enemies who declare war on us
.What I'm thinking right now:
If an AI says:
"I want to war on someone" - NO NO NO NO NO NO
"I want your tech" - Yes, unless it's CS. Should I give away CoL if asked?
"I want some money" - Yes, unless we want them to war on us and soon.
"I want a DP" - Sorry buddy, NO NO NO NO NO
"I want you to cancel deals"
Now we have an interesting dilemma on our hands! Who the hell do we make friends with? Although Toku is Mr. No (Borders), he can be someone to have mutual war struggle with. Zara is predisposed to like us (pleased at +2), but he is creative, and he's on our island, meaning we will get the neighborhood negative (you are too close). And anyway we don't even have deals with Toku, so it's do we want to antagonize Zara? It really depends on how he expands next!
Cancel deals is the worst thing to get because you don't even get +diplo for doing what the demander says!
The Endgame (i.e. what's the worst that can happen):
I was looking at the tech tree to see what we can't get (Industrialism, etc.) and realized that we can get ADVANCED FLIGHT without violating the rules. Whoa. That fur could REALLY be guarded and throw everyone into a fit!
Even if we tech fast and realize we can't get Diplo, we could always get corporations (Sid,Civ Jewel,Create Con) and get culture that way (though that would mean we don't get the gold laurels, sadly).
That someone else is Zara, duh! Unless we met Toku more than 5 turns ago. Indiansmoke?
NOT A PPP!
It's a good time to think and talk about a lot of issues. Though I segregate these topics, note that they are all dependent on each other.
Civics:
YAY I GET TO PUSH THE CHANGE TO BUREAUCRACY BUTTON!!
Are we going to be whipping with those 2 corns or supporting scientists? Caste System instead of slavery might be called for here to run an artist in new cities until border pop, especially for cities close to Zara (or the northern 3xclam + cow + marble spot!). Or whip with the 2 corns to speed up expansion while CS-boosted hamlets/villages keep us going strong?
Cities:
Delhi - Going to be a monster CS capital commerce-wise with those hamlets so early and Silver. Bad news is cutting all those trees did hurt healthwise. I think next will be a granary for health timed before growth to pop 7. Do we want to go Confu and go to pop7? Do we stall at pop 6 again after granary and give back the corn? Then what? More axes and workers and settlers? In what order? Where the hell do they go?
Bombay - Without the 2 corns, almost a garbage city. With the 2 corns, a very cheap short-term GP farm (though there are probably better spots around). Or a mass axe-whip area. Our choice.
Dotmap wanted.
Barbs:
Does anybody know what garrisons barb cities have on Emperor? And when the garrisons turn to longbows? Those vile barbs are actually doing something good for us! How fast should that city be taken? The power gain we would have would make it harder to get Zara to declare on us.
Great People:
Scientist - Academy in Delhi (duh!)
Engineer - Save for Glib/Sistene/CreateCon?
Anything else - hold.
Tech trading:
WFYABTA. The bane of our existence. We are going to have to think about what we backfill through trade. Of course there will be a pause after Alpha is obtained.
Diplomacy:
If we want Diplo, we are going to have to play the Diplo game (and without declaring war very much to boot!). Meaning we have to figure out how to deal with demands the AI gives us (especially since it is nearly impossible to pause a turnset to figure that out...argh!). To me, this means we have precalculated responses to AI demands. So all PPPs from now on (until we win or are certainly going culture instead) should have a plan on diplomacy to make excellent friends and stupid enemies who declare war on us
What I'm thinking right now:
If an AI says:
"I want to war on someone" - NO NO NO NO NO NO
"I want your tech" - Yes, unless it's CS. Should I give away CoL if asked?
"I want some money" - Yes, unless we want them to war on us and soon.
"I want a DP" - Sorry buddy, NO NO NO NO NO
"I want you to cancel deals"
Now we have an interesting dilemma on our hands! Who the hell do we make friends with? Although Toku is Mr. No (Borders), he can be someone to have mutual war struggle with. Zara is predisposed to like us (pleased at +2), but he is creative, and he's on our island, meaning we will get the neighborhood negative (you are too close). And anyway we don't even have deals with Toku, so it's do we want to antagonize Zara? It really depends on how he expands next!
Cancel deals is the worst thing to get because you don't even get +diplo for doing what the demander says!
The Endgame (i.e. what's the worst that can happen):
I was looking at the tech tree to see what we can't get (Industrialism, etc.) and realized that we can get ADVANCED FLIGHT without violating the rules. Whoa. That fur could REALLY be guarded and throw everyone into a fit!
Even if we tech fast and realize we can't get Diplo, we could always get corporations (Sid,Civ Jewel,Create Con) and get culture that way (though that would mean we don't get the gold laurels, sadly).
Whip is good in moderation, when we have lots of stuff to build. But being SPI, we have luxury of going CS and then slavery every 5 turns if we want, so civics changes can almost become part of the micromanaging... if your up to it.
What does confu give us? +1 happy? is it worth the agravation? I'm of a mind to wait on the religion thing. Nothing can screw a good diplo game like bad religion choices. But I think giving Zara the confu headache is a good plan, we can use it for friendly or let himn take heat of being a heathen. Either way it should work for us.
Toku's fav civ is Mercantilism, I believe, so we can keep that in the back of our minds for later. Theo is useless to us and with the borders... I'm sure ZY is more of a problem than an opportunity.
Granary next for Dehli for sure, unless we are making more workers/settlers first. Going to have to use that pop somehow...
Too early to worry about DP's. I'm thinking we'll need esp points on everyone in order to get civics and religions where we want them come voting time. So courthouses are extra ok.
Dotmap, dotmap, where are you dotmap?
Make sure start of every turnset you check who everyones worst enemy is. Nothing sucks more than permanent -4 for trading with worst enemy again and again. Probably should trade with anyone's worst enemy unless we are getting close to end and know who's going to be little and who big. In a perfect world that is how to do it.
Cancel deals are not so bad... the -diplo isn't permanent, I'm pretty sure. But we should certainly be prepared if there are AI that don't like each other we will get asked (again and again) by both of them to do this, so its good to have a plan in the PPP. We know nothing about our world, really, so its hard to know what postion to take. Is ZY a "lets get him to DOW us" target, or is he a voting/trading friend? Which is better for us?
Gold laurels may well go to whichever team can satisfy the most of the stupid conditions, even if that means 2049AD. But probably the best team will get a straightforward win and meet all conditions. Can't know... don't care. We're going to do as fast as we can.
Advanced flight might be nice. I've been dreaming about airships bombarding a 1-tile iland defended by mech infs while 20 galleys bring amphibious-promoted mace to finish them off.
Did I forget to talk about something you mentioned? Probably. That's what tomorrow is for. More homework for the deckhands.
Spoiler :
2*4 + 1*4/2 = 10
An excellent post however.
With Great Power, comes Great Responsibility - don't screw it up.YAY I GET TO PUSH THE CHANGE TO BUREAUCRACY BUTTON!!
Sometimes (particularly in BTS, since BUFFY makes it easy) . And when I do, I settle somewhere else instead fairly often.dotmap? really? do you guys really do this in your games?
It is unlikely Indian met Toku during his own turn. Thus if Toku meets us during his turn:
Toku "hits enter". 2/0
Our turn. 2/0
We hit enter. 2/2
Toku's turn 2/2
Toku hits enter 4/2
Our turn. 4/2
...
Toku's turn 8/8
Toku hits enter 10/8
Our turn 10/8
So it may just be the three of us for awhile. I will be sure to keep an eye on the spy points.
One other thing... the default* barb city defense for these settings is 3 archers.
*You can get the barbs to spam defenders if you enter their borders and fortify, though. Or you can be lucky and catch them while one or more of the defenders is outside the city. Also, if mapmaker does not adjust barb techs to default, they could be stuck with warrior defenders.
They aren't on a hill, there are no AI to give them XP, and there will be no culture defense... so 5 axes is almost certain capture. Just give'em space until they reach size 2... because it looks like they settled the spot we wanted (call it a free settler, to make up for the axes needed).
Oh yeah... and lets not forget that we need 4 warriors at the end. I expect we'll make those while running HR for happy cap.
Classical_hero is "On-Deck" so I'm interested to hear what he thinks we should do with the next couple sets, too.
*You can get the barbs to spam defenders if you enter their borders and fortify, though. Or you can be lucky and catch them while one or more of the defenders is outside the city. Also, if mapmaker does not adjust barb techs to default, they could be stuck with warrior defenders.
They aren't on a hill, there are no AI to give them XP, and there will be no culture defense... so 5 axes is almost certain capture. Just give'em space until they reach size 2... because it looks like they settled the spot we wanted (call it a free settler, to make up for the axes needed).
Oh yeah... and lets not forget that we need 4 warriors at the end. I expect we'll make those while running HR for happy cap.
Classical_hero is "On-Deck" so I'm interested to hear what he thinks we should do with the next couple sets, too.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Some thoughts... Civics i would go caste and bure now get the scientist for academy and then switch to slavery For settler whipping and hopefully monarchy.
tech I feel that we should go fishing monarchy to grow capital and then maybe alpha.
Expansion we should take that barb city asap with some axes, maybe we r lucky and there are still warriors In there (don't forget it needs to be size 2).
Capital should make granary fairly quick and then grow with some axes to take barb cities, monarchy should be fast.second city can run 3 scientists and make axe and then start settler to be ready to whip with the switch to slavery.
After fishing switching to 0 tech to gather gold and wait for academy should be done o feel.
tech I feel that we should go fishing monarchy to grow capital and then maybe alpha.
Expansion we should take that barb city asap with some axes, maybe we r lucky and there are still warriors In there (don't forget it needs to be size 2).
Capital should make granary fairly quick and then grow with some axes to take barb cities, monarchy should be fast.second city can run 3 scientists and make axe and then start settler to be ready to whip with the switch to slavery.
After fishing switching to 0 tech to gather gold and wait for academy should be done o feel.
Indiansmoke
Deity
I just had a look on the power graphs and it seems like both OSS and Xteam have gone for axe rushes...not sure what is the point in our situation, just mentioning it...
I think our active duty and on-deck players have some team responsibilities that are somewhat neglected.
Narri, you are up. Could you put up a rough plan so we can have some fun hacking it to pieces? Just say what you would do if this was all your game to play. We can start from there.
C_H, ETa, and Vra... the "On-deck" position is currently vacant and you guys haven't played any turns yet. I'll give the "On-deck" slot to whichever of you first shows the most interest in what's going on here.
Did Ghandi have gulags?
@Indiansmoke: convince me we'll never have to DOW more than twice and I'll let you after ZY. Could it be they aRE AXE-RUSHING BARBS? I think that is a very reasonable course of action requiring almost no justification. Lets make it interesting!
Narri, you are up. Could you put up a rough plan so we can have some fun hacking it to pieces?
Just say what you would do if this was all your game to play. We can start from there.C_H, ETa, and Vra... the "On-deck" position is currently vacant and you guys haven't played any turns yet. I'll give the "On-deck" slot to whichever of you first shows the most interest in what's going on here.
Did Ghandi have gulags?
@Indiansmoke: convince me we'll never have to DOW more than twice and I'll let you after ZY. Could it be they aRE AXE-RUSHING BARBS? I think that is a very reasonable course of action requiring almost no justification.
Lets make it interesting!
Yamps
Deity
Lurker's comment
^Hehe, send 'em over, we'll have some fun!
^Hehe, send 'em over, we'll have some fun!
I think our active duty and on-deck players have some team responsibilities that are somewhat neglected.
Narri, you are up. Could you put up a rough plan so we can have some fun hacking it to pieces?
Well, sorry about that. But I did just graduate, so cut me some slack here!
You guys won't give me a dotmap, I'll just have to make one myself. Behold:
(A very crude PPP, as I don't have a consensus of what our plan is
. I can't play this until Thursday at the earliest, so you have plenty of time to modify this).PPP version 0:
The Plan:
Settle Proxy City of Anger in ZY's face, then conquer barb city with axes while setting up infrastructure. This delays workboating but denies Zara land (as Toku doesn't seem to have a third contact).
Diplomacy:
Trade Corn to Zara for Cow (or Clam if you prefer). Gives us +1 health and allows us to stall Delhi again with no corns as an option. Gives us a chance to still be friends even after we squeeze cities next to him.
{Should I try a demand first, as Zara is pleased and won't be angry about it?}
Reject all calls for war. Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara {maybe not, considering the health deal?}.
Spy points all to Toku, allocating back to Zara to maintain research visibility as needed.
Civics/Cities:
Buerocracy and Caste System until Academy. Then back to Slavery (and possibly with HR) to expand like mad.
Delhi quickly fills food box with food (but not growing to size 7) now that it has +1 health. Slow builds granary with current worked tiles.
Then a worker followed by axes while stalling at size 6 with 5 hamlets + silver. The barb city will take a while to get to size 2, so we can take some time.
{Maybe I should start using those 1F,3H,1C mined hills instead and produce faster?}
Bombay runs three scientists, working 1 corn and copper only until next GS (15 turns at +18 GPP/turn). Builds 2 axes (though fairly slowly) followed by granary. I can use two scientist-turns and still get GS in 15, I might use this to get axe out 1 turn faster.
{The alternative is to make this city 2-pop whip the axe after this one, growing to 6 first.}
{Or maybe do both, and run three scientists for 13 turns, working both corns for a few turns out of the 13, then swap to slavery, then run 2 scientists and 2-pop whip the axe, needs more calculation here}.
Proxy city runs artist and very slow builds monument to begin the culture battle until border pop, then works high production square. {Chop monument?}. It's a junk city until it flips the cow, which makes it mediocre.
Tech:
Fishing in 1 turn. Then Alphabet at max research. You are very welcome to change this.
{Maybe Fishing>Monarchy, then repeatedly whip a stationary axe army in Bombay, moving out after GS is born?}.
PPP's a good start. thx
proxy city is unlikely to ever flip the cows, it will do well to keep the 3 tiles to its immediate east. Will be a decent cottage city eventually.
[1S of proxy has better production (2 hills, saves a forest) but doesn't deny as many river tiles to ZY.]
thanks for the dotmap. I try to avoid settling on flood plains (loses the extra food (and unhealthiness)); and would settle NE of meh and N of junk (of course, we can't do both - maybe NW of meh). It will be a while before we are ready to settle these cities anyway.
Agree that block zara and barb cities are priorities.
Do we think that Toku is the other civ that Zara met (or is there another to the east)?
it's a surprise:
proxy city is unlikely to ever flip the cows, it will do well to keep the 3 tiles to its immediate east. Will be a decent cottage city eventually.
[1S of proxy has better production (2 hills, saves a forest) but doesn't deny as many river tiles to ZY.]
thanks for the dotmap. I try to avoid settling on flood plains (loses the extra food (and unhealthiness)); and would settle NE of meh and N of junk (of course, we can't do both - maybe NW of meh). It will be a while before we are ready to settle these cities anyway.
Agree that block zara and barb cities are priorities.
Do we think that Toku is the other civ that Zara met (or is there another to the east)?
it's a surprise:
Spoiler :
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Congratulations! But if you want some slacks cut, see a tailor.Well, sorry about that. But I did just graduate, so cut me some slack here!
I have hard enough time deciding where one city should go, I cannot be trusted to plan out more than 1 or two at a time. My critique of the dotmap is that there are only a couple really strong cities and a bunch of mediocre crap ones. Well... OK... maybe that's the land we were dealt. But the grass is really looking greener on the other side of the fence.
Crude is good! I'll be (pleasantly) suprised if we come up with a plan of action before then, though, so no problem. Keep your weekend clear, though.(A very crude PPP, as I don't have a consensus of what our plan is
My comments in RED
PPP version 0:
The Plan:
Settle Proxy City of Anger in ZY's face, then conquer barb city with axes while setting up infrastructure. This delays workboating but denies Zara land (as Toku doesn't seem to have a third contact). OK, then we are planning to entice ZY to DOW us.
Diplomacy:
Trade Corn to Zara for Cow (or Clam if you prefer). Gives us +1 health and allows us to stall Delhi again with no corns as an option. Gives us a chance to still be friends even after we squeeze cities next to him. well which is it, friends or enemies?
{Should I try a demand first, as Zara is pleased and won't be angry about it?} No war planned in the next 10 turns, so a "request" is a good idea, unless we want to save our request tolerances for something more valuable.
Reject all calls for war. Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara {maybe not, considering the health deal?}. This only makes sense if we will befriend Zara.
Spy points all to Toku, allocating back to Zara to maintain research visibility as needed.
Civics/Cities:
Buerocracy and Caste System until Academy. Then back to Slavery (and possibly with HR) to expand like mad.
Delhi quickly fills food box with food (but not growing to size 7) now that it has +1 health. Slow builds granary with current worked tiles.
Then a worker followed by axes while stalling at size 6 with 5 hamlets + silver. The barb city will take a while to get to size 2, so we can take some time.Barb city has a 3-food tile to work, that's like 10 turns, right?
{Maybe I should start using those 1F,3H,1C mined hills instead and produce faster?}
Bombay runs three scientists, working 1 corn and copper only until next GS (15 turns at +18 GPP/turn). Builds 2 axes (though fairly slowly) followed by granary. I can use two scientist-turns and still get GS in 15, I might use this to get axe out 1 turn faster.
{The alternative is to make this city 2-pop whip the axe after this one, growing to 6 first.}
{Or maybe do both, and run three scientists for 13 turns, working both corns for a few turns out of the 13, then swap to slavery, then run 2 scientists and 2-pop whip the axe, needs more calculation here}.
Proxy city runs artist and very slow builds monument to begin the culture battle until border pop, then works high production square. {Chop monument?}. Why monument, the artist will pop the BFC before you can build monument? It's a junk city until it flips the cow, which makes it mediocre.Then its a junk city until we raze ZY's second city.
Tech:
Fishing in 1 turn. Then Alphabet at max research. You are very welcome to change this.
{Maybe Fishing>Monarchy, then repeatedly whip a stationary axe army in Bombay, moving out after GS is born?}. We'll have use for HR long before we can trade for monarchy. We'll have less use for alphabet until we find more trading partners than Zara. I prefer the fishing>monarchy
-----------
OK, there are some big issues we have to decide to get the questions answered for this PPP. What we will "decide" is actually more like a "working plan", and this is sure to require updating or reversing as we learn more about the 'hood.
1) Priority of WB exploring - we can't go through Toku's borders, so is it important to get this started before he blocks all coastal routes? Or do we have time? This determines where we settle the next city, coastal or not. We'd have to wait for enough axes to take the barb city --if we settle as the dotmap suggests-- to get a coastal city.
2) ZY friend or foe? I think that friend is better, because we'll need trading and Toku can be difficult to trade with. If Toku dow's ZY or vice versa, we'd have to re-asess our options, though. If ZY's going to be friend, that speaks against Proxy of Anger. If we make other contacts, we can have more freedom in picking our friends.
What is the main goal of this turnset? I favor (a) starting the wb exploring, and (b) get the force of axes for barb city taking.
With these goals, settling the coast east makes the most sense... no cow ever, but at least another silver we can trade. Then building the axe force at a decent pace, and another settler for blocking site (or near there). Diplo should look for trading with ZY. Toku won't do anything but gripe and we'll deny his requests. We'd Fair Trade with ZY rather than make impertinent demands... at least until he has something better than clams to give us.
Religion
We can adopt Confu, can't we? It will aid happiness cap and help relations with ZY get to Friendly faster.
Just some thoughts. What do you guys see as the main goals for the next 20 turns or so? I've got Narri's answers from his PPP, but everyone else?
Also, we might want to be very careful with trading... those "you traded with out worst enemy" modifiers can really hurt. A lot. So one should check the Buffy Glance screen often for worst enemy status. More important as we meet more AI.
Situation is classical. There are three scenarios:
1. Risk, where we go after ZY and hope that there is someone else nearby besides Tofu.
X. Intermediate, where we get the workboat and scout before starting a war. Problem is that we lose turns and that probably makes fighting harder.
2. Safe, where we live in peace and harmony.
Risk is twofold, where there is military risk form Tofu and risk of being technologically less advanced than otherwise. I guess it's just a choice whether we (=narri) choose(s) to take a risk or not.
I think that is a few turnset goal. Taking the barb city seems obvious, so the only question remaining would be third city placement. Now the barb city is a coastal city so we could get the WB from there. That's why I would try to get a good terrain for the third city. Overall it boils down to the selection between the war or peace strategy.
I agree that's the risk/benefit trade-off for a game without a bunch of conditions on it. But in this game, we can make it IMPOSSIBLE to win if we DOW and misjudged the situation with respect to resources. Note, ZY won't DOW us for a very long time, especially if our power rating is where we'd like it to be in a war.
Lets also recall that to fulfill victory conditions we cannot eliminate the Ethiopean civilization, so any city we take from him will have "Yearn for motherland" unhappy faces, and unless we take all his on-continent cities (does he have any off-continent?) they will be pretty useless for a long time due to cultural pressure. Can't even vassal him until Feudalism.
So as Eldine has decreed, there are more risks to the warpath in this world. That's why the peacepath is better. We can always change our minds later, but do so with a lot more knowledge. And a much bigger tech advantage, unless we screw something up.
Toku, otoh, will eventually attack us even if we try to make friends.
Psychologically, EL-Dyn are going to keep the rest of the normal game challenges straightforward, I think. ZY = easy to make Friendly and have trading partner; Toku = almost certain backstab at some point. If we find no more civs until Optics its clear who we should be making nice with and who we should figure is a vassal target.
Sorry dechand... I meant for this to be a short post but got carried away.
Toku, otoh, will eventually attack us even if we try to make friends.
I don't think Togu will attack if ZY is his worst enemy, but he may make unpleasant demands. Anyway even though saying this pains me deeply I suppose peace is the way. So tasks for the turnset, IMO, would be to secure the correct amount of warriors, capture barb city and set up a next city somewhere in the east. I would probably put it at the blocking city site or 3 squares S from there in the middle of the mountains.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Congrats on your graduation narri 
some comments with red
General comment - I don't agree with dot map, but that is another issue lets focus on this session.
PPP version 0:
The Plan:
Settle Proxy City of Anger in ZY's face, then conquer barb city with axes while setting up infrastructure. This delays workboating but denies Zara land (as Toku doesn't seem to have a third contact). - That city will be crap city anyway and the ONLY reason to make it now is to have fast workboat out - if we are not to make it coastal we have no reason to make it at all.
Diplomacy:
Trade Corn to Zara for Cow (or Clam if you prefer). Gives us +1 health and allows us to stall Delhi again with no corns as an option. Gives us a chance to still be friends even after we squeeze cities next to him.
{Should I try a demand first, as Zara is pleased and won't be angry about it?} - Yes I agree nice
Reject all calls for war. Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara {maybe not, considering the health deal?}. - Yes I agree
Spy points all to Toku, allocating back to Zara to maintain research visibility as needed. - Zara research visibility is more important to us than toku's so lets not lose that
Civics/Cities:
Buerocracy and Caste System until Academy. Then back to Slavery (and possibly with HR) to expand like mad. - Yes
Delhi quickly fills food box with food (but not growing to size 7) now that it has +1 health. Slow builds granary with current worked tiles.
Then a worker followed by axes while stalling at size 6 with 5 hamlets + silver. The barb city will take a while to get to size 2, so we can take some time. (barb city has been there for a while now, send an axe asap IMO){Maybe I should start using those 1F,3H,1C mined hills instead and produce faster?} Yes we need fast granary
Bombay runs three scientists, working 1 corn and copper only until next GS (15 turns at +18 GPP/turn). Builds 2 axes (though fairly slowly) followed by granary. I can use two scientist-turns and still get GS in 15, I might use this to get axe out 1 turn faster.
{The alternative is to make this city 2-pop whip the axe after this one, growing to 6 first.} Check first if there is enough food surplus to starve and run 4 scientists for a few turns
{Or maybe do both, and run three scientists for 13 turns, working both corns for a few turns out of the 13, then swap to slavery, then run 2 scientists and 2-pop whip the axe, needs more calculation here}.
Proxy city runs artist and very slow builds monument to begin the culture battle until border pop, then works high production square. {Chop monument?}. It's a junk city until it flips the cow, which makes it mediocre. (as said I think this should be coastal and build/chop workboat asap)
Tech:
Fishing in 1 turn. Then Alphabet at max research. You are very welcome to change this.
{Maybe Fishing>Monarchy, then repeatedly whip a stationary axe army in Bombay, moving out after GS is born?} I think Monarchy after fishing, ai is way behind in tech. IN ANY CASE 0% research till academy
Also please post a plan about worker moves
To everyone else - sorry if you already said things I post here I have not read all the posts
some comments with red
General comment - I don't agree with dot map, but that is another issue lets focus on this session.
PPP version 0:
The Plan:
Settle Proxy City of Anger in ZY's face, then conquer barb city with axes while setting up infrastructure. This delays workboating but denies Zara land (as Toku doesn't seem to have a third contact). - That city will be crap city anyway and the ONLY reason to make it now is to have fast workboat out - if we are not to make it coastal we have no reason to make it at all.
Diplomacy:
Trade Corn to Zara for Cow (or Clam if you prefer). Gives us +1 health and allows us to stall Delhi again with no corns as an option. Gives us a chance to still be friends even after we squeeze cities next to him.
{Should I try a demand first, as Zara is pleased and won't be angry about it?} - Yes I agree nice
Reject all calls for war. Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara {maybe not, considering the health deal?}. - Yes I agree
Spy points all to Toku, allocating back to Zara to maintain research visibility as needed. - Zara research visibility is more important to us than toku's so lets not lose that
Civics/Cities:
Buerocracy and Caste System until Academy. Then back to Slavery (and possibly with HR) to expand like mad. - Yes
Delhi quickly fills food box with food (but not growing to size 7) now that it has +1 health. Slow builds granary with current worked tiles.
Then a worker followed by axes while stalling at size 6 with 5 hamlets + silver. The barb city will take a while to get to size 2, so we can take some time. (barb city has been there for a while now, send an axe asap IMO){Maybe I should start using those 1F,3H,1C mined hills instead and produce faster?} Yes we need fast granary
Bombay runs three scientists, working 1 corn and copper only until next GS (15 turns at +18 GPP/turn). Builds 2 axes (though fairly slowly) followed by granary. I can use two scientist-turns and still get GS in 15, I might use this to get axe out 1 turn faster.
{The alternative is to make this city 2-pop whip the axe after this one, growing to 6 first.} Check first if there is enough food surplus to starve and run 4 scientists for a few turns
{Or maybe do both, and run three scientists for 13 turns, working both corns for a few turns out of the 13, then swap to slavery, then run 2 scientists and 2-pop whip the axe, needs more calculation here}.
Proxy city runs artist and very slow builds monument to begin the culture battle until border pop, then works high production square. {Chop monument?}. It's a junk city until it flips the cow, which makes it mediocre. (as said I think this should be coastal and build/chop workboat asap)
Tech:
Fishing in 1 turn. Then Alphabet at max research. You are very welcome to change this.
{Maybe Fishing>Monarchy, then repeatedly whip a stationary axe army in Bombay, moving out after GS is born?} I think Monarchy after fishing, ai is way behind in tech. IN ANY CASE 0% research till academy
Also please post a plan about worker moves
To everyone else - sorry if you already said things I post here I have not read all the posts
Similar threads
