Do you believe in god? (with poll)

That was one excellent post, Gothmog ! Thanks.

You're all too kind. It is nice to know that someone reads my posts, which admitedly can be on the long side.

@jonatas
If you google 'uncertainty principle' you will get a lot of stuff. This was a major philosophical debate over the REALITY of quantum mechanics, involving a lot of very interesting insight into how great theoretical physicists think.

Here's a couple I know of:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/
http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p08.htm

though I'm sure that 'wiki' has info about it too.

btw the canonical variables actually linked are: time with energy, and position with momentum.

@Gothmog:

For a long time, I too had the same opinion as you on REALITY and reality. I also thought that we can only scientifically talk about reality and leave REALITY to metaphysics. Who cares about reality as long as we can do scientific predictions. But off late I am re-considering my view. Let me elaborate.

If REALITY != reality then for all practical purposes we are in a Matrix-like REALITY which is basically simulating the results of our theoies and experiments, right? We do an experiment and then REALITY computes it, and churns out a self-consistent answer that is consistent with the rest of reality and current reality and all future answers in reality. So REALITY is a computer which computes our theories.

Now imagine if we do an experiment whose answer is inherently non-computable but deterministic. {we ask a computer to tile a plane with some arbitary preselected tiles and depending on whether it can tile it or not it lights a bulb. Notice that whether the bulb will be lighted or not is deterministic, but there is no way it can be computed.} In that case how does REALITY respond? In fact how can REALITY respond? It cannot compute it (unless computation is REALITY means something else). The only way it can answer it is if it runs exactly the same experiment and then responds with the answers. So, REALITY must be able to duplicate (not simulate) reality. i.e. reality as is (or at least can be) an integral component of REALITY.

So at the very least

(a) computation in REALITY does not obey the same mathematics as it does in reality
or
(b) reality is an integral part of REALITY and the part of REALITY that is reality is exactly reality and nothing else.

I hope I did not confuse the heck out of everybody with reality and REALITY. Let me know if i made any sense.

betazed, I actually saw this response from you coming and was tempted to goad you into it, but refrained. We discussed a similar thing once in your optimisim over a 'theory of everything'.

I am 100% of the opinion and belief that reality is a subset of REALITY and approximates it quite closely. I have never seen, or heard of, convincing evidence to suggest that the part of REALITY that is reality is anything but exactly reality (really!).

But we have seen that theories overtake eachother, wave mechanics overcoming particle determinism (IMO), theories that predict the existence of infinitely curved spacetime, etc. Where does the truth lie? I don't think it really matters, except to the extent that it help us forward our human understanding of reality.

I am also aware of the limited nature of human existence and intelligence. I have no evidence of anything beyond the construct supplied by the big bang (or outside of the known universe if you prefer). I do not believe that this lack of information implies the existence, or the non-existence, of anything beyond.

In my more philosophical moments I often think that there must be something else. Though I am terrible at understanding infinity, I also have a hard time imagining that the sum total of physical existence (of REALITY) is finite.

Another universe perhaps? multiple other universes? ones where the 'rules' are different? lots of spacetime? a little spacetime? a singularity or two? etc. etc.

Also, as birdjaguar and punkbass2000 pointed out, the way we view the universe it tied intimately to how we perceive time, space, and energy (e.g. cause and effect). It may be that there are other ways to perceive reality, ones that I cannot imagine due to my human nature. Ones that may also exist as a different subset of REALITY, possibly a subset of reality, or even all of REALITY (that to me would be God).

So I am not of the opinion that REALITY computes reality, simply that reality is a reflection of our particular human situation and that there is probably more of it than this. Most likely a lot less interesting than our little slice, but who can say for sure? It could be that REALITY does compute reality with a different mathematics so to speak, or indeed that reality is an expression of some creative force (i.e. God). It could also be that there is an invisible purple dragon in my garage. I can't say for sure.

If I totally missed what you were trying to say let me know. It is certainly possible... really!

Knowze Gungk said:

I don't think people are using your age as a basis for debate, it seems more like they see your age as a reason for the immature way you present yourself.

Personally, I don't see it that way, as I have seen more maturity in Five year olds. But then again, on the other end of the scale, I've seen less maturity in Fifty year olds (just watch politicians debate, for example).

I could try saying you should grow up, but not many people ever grow up. Hell, I didn't.

Click to expand...

What's immature about believing in god? I'm willing to wager that you wouldn't use the word "Immature" if I wasn't 13. If I wasn't 13, you'd pobably say stupid instead. Yes, I knew it. It's all about age, when someones 5-15, they are called "immature" and when they are older, the correct word for this is stupid, or idiot. Yes, maybe your right, I should grow out of god, and stop fearing . personally, I really it when people only call others "spoiled brat" or "immature" just because they are young, but what are you going to do? Jerks will be Jerks, boys will be boys. If your talking about when I flamed the atheist, I already appologized, and I admited that I was wrong.

It may be your reactionary and presumptuous posting that causes people to call you immature.

jonatas said:

Perf, i'll ask you again to expand on this statement, because you left me hanging....

Click to expand...

Well, I'm saying there may be discrete "moments" of time, so moment A is followed by moment B with no moments in between and a finite number of moments makes up any unit of time.

Fox Mccloud said:

And..... that isn't young.

Click to expand...

It's young, but it's not early adolescent young.

Fox Mccloud said:

huh, What?

Click to expand...

You asked for a word for someone who slavishly follows the orders of his superiors "Yes Man" would be an excellent term.

Fox Mccloud said:

You also had thos prove god exist threads,

Click to expand...

Nah, it was really more of Curt Sibling's thing

Fox Mccloud said:

and they must've been similar to this one, with lots and lots of spam and flame.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but they were funnier.

Fox Mccloud said:

I believe in god because since there is so much suffering in the world, I just cling to the hope that we will be all saved, is all.

Click to expand...

That's kind of silly. I hope I win a million dollars tommorow. That doesn't mean I'm going to win the lottery tommorow. Hope, no matter how optimistic or altruistic, is a very poor thing to base statements of factuality. There should've been no Hitler, there should've been someone to prevent 9/11. Just because it would be nice if a loving god sent us all to heaven doesn't mean it exists.

Fox Mccloud said:

1. Than what is this? should I go get my dictionary?

Click to expand...

Mostly banter, some sarcasm.

Fox Mccloud said:

2. I admitted that I was a jerk, and I probably even made religon look bad to some people, what more do you need?

Click to expand...

Oh, maybe three more years of your intellectual development. That and quit insinuating that athiests are immoral.

Fox Mccloud said:

You have to draw a line somewhere, you aren't any better than the school bully, if you do what the bully does after getting your revenge, imo.

Click to expand...

Well, after I post I feel it's about fine, but then you post again and I have to avenge that one.

Fox Mccloud said:

What was I going to do, appologize, than be a jerk??

Click to expand...

I dunno, you behave, I react, tell me how you want me to react and I'll tell you how to behave.

Fox Mccloud said:

Ok, where can I find atheistic philosophies

Click to expand...

Here's a few of the athiestic philosophies that deal or partily deal with with morality (note that I do not embrace all of these philosophies and that this is a partial list) the articles only provide a basic understanding and each philosophy is much deeper.
Secular Humanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Humanism
Objectivism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_philosophy
Naturalistic Pantheism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism
LaVeyan Satanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism
Rationalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism

Fox Mccloud said:

There we go again, You might as well have said: "all my threads are better than yours, so "

Click to expand...

Well, the certainy had more history to them, what notable events have occured here?

Fox Mccloud said:

I agree on the baeb thread though..

Click to expand...

Well, I only did the latest one

Fox Mccloud said:

RUN for your lives! The no feelings man is on the loose.

Click to expand...

I've got feelings, I just don't invest a lot of it into an internet thread.

Fox Mccloud said:

Well, Seeing as I could just make a new one, we can just let this at least get to 1,000, then we can start a new thread. Happy?

Click to expand...

Umm, that's what I've planning to do the whole time.

Fox Mccloud said:

Oh, yeah, like you would appologize at all.

Click to expand...

I've done it here. But, I really I don't feel I owe you one.

Fox Mccloud said:

Oh, yeah ok, that's right, because Perfection is perfect, and he can do no wrong. Riiiiight.

Click to expand...

I can and do do wrong, but I do care if I do wrong.

Fox Mccloud said:

And, babies usually tattle...

Click to expand...

They also have hissyfits. I think you're having one.

Fox Mccloud said:

What is this big stink your talking about? The whole thread?

Click to expand...

No, you're reaction to my jest

Fox Mccloud said:

Never seen it like that, thanks....

Click to expand...

No problemo

I believe in the one true god, Allah. I believe everything that we have discovered, gravity, antimatter, evolution, the big bang, fossils, and etc. is not a means of discrediting Allah, but reinforcing him. Of course, it's a Muslim thing so the people of the book will disagree...

Azadre said:

I believe in the one true god, Allah. I believe everything that we have discovered, gravity, antimatter, evolution, the big bang, fossils, and etc. is not a means of discrediting Allah, but reinforcing him. Of course, it's a Muslim thing so the people of the book will disagree...

Click to expand...

Good, Azadre, but why it took you so long to post it? 'God' here could refer in any religion's God, IMHO.

I'm happy to see that, in your opinion, what you named is assigned to God's work, and not try to totally discredit them as others do - a better stance, IMHO.

Azadre said:

I believe in the one true god, Allah. I believe everything that we have discovered, gravity, antimatter, evolution, the big bang, fossils, and etc. is not a means of discrediting Allah, but reinforcing him. Of course, it's a Muslim thing so the people of the book will disagree...

Click to expand...

Islam is the "brother religion" of Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I know, Islam is Christianity-Jesus, and god is called allah. They have similar laws, they have an all good, all loving god, and they have a . Allah is really just god in another tongue, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong...

AFAIK, the salient factor is that Christians believe Jesus is the son of god, and Muslims believe Mohammad is the prophet of god.

Fox Mccloud said:

Islam is the "brother religion" of Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I know, Islam is Christianity-Jesus, and god is called allah. They have similar laws, they have an all good, all loving god, and they have a . Allah is really just god in another tongue, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong...

Click to expand...

There's a lot of dfferences, the biggie (from a Christian standpoint) is Jesus while revered is not the son of god. There are a ton of other differences as well. It is most certainly not Christianity. However, you are correct that Allah is god to the Muslims and that many interpret it as the "same god".

Fox Mccloud said:

Islam is the "brother religion" of Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I know, Islam is Christianity-Jesus, and god is called allah. They have similar laws, they have an all good, all loving god, and they have a . Allah is really just god in another tongue, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong...

Click to expand...

The difference between my religion and yours, looking aside the political aspects, is that Jesus was a prophet like Abraham, Moses, and the others. He was able to perform miracles and was sent to fix the problems the Rabbis were causing. Allah is just a contraction of the arabic words the and god. Arab Christians worship Allah also.

Fox Mccloud said:

What's immature about believing in god?

Click to expand...

Nothing is immature about believing in god; I hope it sticks with you for a long time. What is immature is your posting. You started a thread about god and have drawn in some very talented posters like Betazed, Punkbass, Gothmog, Perfection, Taliesin etc. rather than posting spam after spam you should be reading their posts and asking them questions. The fact that you are wasting this opportunity is a sign of your youth. Perfection will take you for a ride as long as you keep posting, and believe me he is very good at it. But it is a waste of his talents; you should challenge him in a more worthwhile area and then learn when as he takes your posts apart in excrusiating detail and psychic pain (to you, not him).

Azadre said:

The difference between my religion and yours, looking aside the political aspects, is that Jesus was a prophet like Abraham, Moses, and the others. He was able to perform miracles and was sent to fix the problems the Rabbis were causing. Allah is just a contraction of the arabic words the and god. Arab Christians worship Allah also.

Click to expand...

You know, I started to really dislike Islam when I heard that the people who destroyed the Trade Center in New York were from Muslim countries, but I've learned now that the thing about muslims being extremeist is western pro da. In the middle ages, Muslims had the coolest empire anywhere. Anyway, did you vote yes on the poll? I hope you did, because when I say god, it could mean anything from the Christian god, to zeus, to allah to (insert name here).

Fox Mccloud said:

What's immature about believing in god?

Click to expand...

I'm willing to wager that you wouldn't use the word "Immature" if I wasn't 13. If I wasn't 13, you'd pobably say stupid instead.[/QUOTE]
No. Maybe the "immature" thing is how you behave on the forum. How you make assumptions. How some of your personal comments are out of line. How some of us don't believe in your garbage, er, beliefs.

Fox Mccloud said:

Yes, I knew it.

Click to expand...

Knew what? You don't know anything about what we think. It has very little to do with your age. LIsten for others oppinions when you assume something like that.

Fox Mccloud said:

It's all about age, when someones 5-15, they are called "immature" and when they are older, the correct word for this is stupid, or idiot.

Click to expand...

Stop putting words into our mouths.

Fox Mccloud said:

Yes, maybe your right, I should grow out of god, and stop fearing . personally, I really it when people only call others "spoiled brat" or "immature" just because they are young, but what are you going to do?

Click to expand...

Keep your beliefs. We live in America, which means you can announce and believe in whatever you want, and we wouldn't be able to do anything, no matter if we believe in it or not.

Fox Mccloud said:

You know, I started to really dislike Islam when I heard that the people who destroyed the Trade Center in New York were from Muslim countries, but I've learned now that the thing about muslims being extremeist is western pro da. In the middle ages, Muslims had the coolest empire anywhere. Anyway, did you vote yes on the poll? I hope you did, because when I say god, it could mean anything from the Christian god, to zeus, to allah to (insert name here).

Click to expand...

Of course I did. Also, don't let the actions of a few spoil my faith. They are not ambassadors.

Fox Mccloud said:

You know, I started to really dislike Islam when I heard that the people who destroyed the Trade Center in New York were from Muslim countries

Click to expand...

Its kind of sad that a lot of people saw the whole thing in that perspective but I'm glad you've learned a bit more.

punkbass2000 said:

I don't think we need Science at all. Science is limited by itself. Science is its own type of faith. Sure, it can explain somethings, but only with reference to itself and with the blind faith that its theories have intrinsic truth. There is nothing wrong with using Science, but its limitations must be recognized. To quote the Lao Tzu, "Those who know cannot explain. Those who can explain do not know."

Click to expand...

Science has done alot of great things. Since it challenges religion, you think it's unnessecary? Ofcourse it has it's limits. So does religion. What doesn't?

LLXerxes said:

Science has done alot of great things. Since it challenges religion, you think it's unnessecary? Ofcourse it has it's limits. So does religion. What doesn't?

Click to expand...

Here's a little bite of information. Islam states that the universe was created in a big bang. It states we started from a single life form. Now, all this research we've done, all this theorizing, it doesn't discredit the existance of Allah. It just attempts to explain how. If you knew some relativity, I'd really blow your mind.