Wang's Killing Fields (IMM Always War)

Doshin

Doshin

jolly yellow giant
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Welcome, Taejo Wang Geon, it is 4000 BC and you lead a small band of wandering Koreans. Long ago your people - mostly farmers, craftsmen, and the like - placed their fates and fortunes in your hands. After many years of hardship, you have finally reached the foot of the Taedong river, a region rich in livestock, precious gold, and hardy rocks. Farmers may be farmers, sculptors may sculpt, and you will surely lead your people into a blessed future.

Being Protective and Financial, you are confident that your reign will be safe and prosperous.

Yet in the far distance, you hear a low rumble. What could that disturbance be? Suddenly, from the hills, a scout appears, speaking in a foreign tongue and glancing around with covetous eyes. What is this sorcery? Can it be that he is after our gold and pigs? Rustlers and petty bandits have no place in your utopic lands. Outraged, you order his immediate death.

Some years later, a second scout appears. This fellow looks even worse than the first, and immediately flees to hide in the woods. Outraged, you order a search party be formed to execute the troublemaker.

A third scout appears. You pride yourself on the constancy of your purpose.

Taejo Wang Geon, you have taken swift and firm action to protect your people and all that they hold dear. What steps will you take next to maintain this happy paradise and guarantee the eternal boon of Korean rule?

Our start:

ScreenShot2012-12-26at72013AM_zps4ff89862.jpg



Our settings:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at72202AM_zps0d88ee9e.jpg


I have utilized the settings BiC employed in the last Always War game, namely:

Always war.
Hemispheres. Hopefully war will break out on the other continent, slowing their tech pace before they meet us.
Tropical. This slows the AIs a little, but (more importantly) guarantees us good land in which to settle.
Two massive continents (standard size, this just limits island hopping).
There is one extra AI for a total of seven AIs, or four teams per continent. In my test games, I found that two AIs per continent can either be too easy (when you are bunched together and successfully choke half of your rivals) or too difficult (when you are spread apart).

I toyed with the idea of playing a Global Highlands map, but didn't want to be accused of making things too easy. :D


Mini-tips, provided in the last game:

Spoiler :
BornInCantaloup said:
Promoting your units is key. If you want a head-start on the military, consider going warrior first. And don't go lose your first WWII warrior simply because you attacked a scout at 70% odds. Go choke and steal workers (if you can, that is; otherwise, find something else to do...).

Even with copper/horses, do not dismiss Archery for too long. Archers are cheaper than both chariots and Axes. They're also more versatile on defense. Do not rush Archery either, at least without a reason.

Settle on hills (even green) when given the choice. If you can create a choke point, create it, cherish it and defend it before you can go on the offensive.
If at all possible, keep the commerce tiles (cities) at the back, well behind your cultural borders.

Explore early and keep some scouts outside your borders. Will allow for informed decisions and give you time to react to the AIs moves.
You will need to be ready to defend against a 5 units stack entering your borders by turn 70 – requires some numbers and mobility. Don't be and you might lose a city straight off to a swordsman and 4 archers.
Locating the AIs is key to predict their attack path and set up your defense properly.

Since you can't trade but the AIs can, espionage is relevant to an AW game. The Great Wall, The Oracle, Alphabet and Code of Laws all are decent (crucial?) short to mid term targets. Just like in isolation, it is important to raise your health and happy caps early (civics, buildings, resources).
You can build early wonders, by the way, provided your production remains balanced (you define “balanced”).

Remember there is another hemisphere: don't neglect your long-term research potential.

If you're unsure, I'm indecisive. Go check past AW threads for more insight. Especially those started by Snaaty, featuring games played on Deity difficulty. Long reads but plenty of good tips inside.

Not the same kind of meal, well shorter: you might want to check Diagonale's article on the art of surviving and defensive warfare.
Click to expand...

Some tips of my own, building on BiC's comments. Please note that I am not an expert and have limited experience with this format:

Spoiler :
Always War is much more difficult than you might expect. A wide variety of strategies must be employed in order to win, many of which deviate from standard Civ strategies.

There is a world of difference between surviving and winning, defense and offense. There is no shame in biding your time and gathering your strength, of course, but try not to get caught up in simply fending off attacks, promoting super units, and laughing at the AI's suicidal tendencies. If you simply sit back and defend, you will eventually fall behind in tech and get walloped once the Renaissance and Industrial eras hit. It is no fun facing multiple armies filled with Rifles at once.

A Spy economy, while not crucial to win, is the most effective way to maintain your tech rate and/or play catch up. Should you wish to pursue this route, crucial short term targets include The Great Wall (GSpy person points) Alphabet (build Spies) and Code of Laws (build Courthouses). A Courthouse provides a constant source of passive espionage points, +2 :espionage: per turn. Once you hit Engineering, build Castles in your Courthouse cities and run Spies whenever possible. Whereas a Scientist specialists provides you with +3 :science: per turn, and a Merchant +3 :gold: , a Spy provides +4 :espionage: and +1 :science: .

Once you hit Constitution, your :espionage: rate will sky rocket via Jails.

Banking is an incredibly powerful technology. You have no foreign trade-routes, so switching into Mercantilism is an out-and-out positive. Each free Specialist adds +3 :science: or +3 :gold: or +4 :espionage: , +1 :science: per city. These numbers are even greater if you are running Representation.

Your economy will be in shambles for much of the game. You will need to build more Markets, Grocers, and Banks than normal.

Always War is an excellent format in which to indulge your inner zealot. Religions will not spread to you passively, so you either need to capture a town with a religion or found one yourself.

With a religion, you may build the Apostolic Palace, University of Sankore, and Spiral Minaret. For the AW format, these are excellent wonders, since they provide a constant source of passive income. This goes for shrines too.

Organized Religion is, surprisingly enough, a better civic most of the time than Theology.

If the map allows, settle cities overseas for foreign trade routes (= +1 :commerce: per city).

In terms of units, settle on hills and build Archers and Longbows for defense. Promote your troops through the Drill line. The Drill promotions minimize collateral damage and increase the likelihood that your troops will emerge from their battles unscathed. This lets them defend again and again. Seriously, you must have a very good reason to promote CG or Combat before Drill.

The Drill line is especially useful to have on your super defender. You do not (and should not) attach every Great General you spawn to a unit, but you will soon find that a super-Archer or a super-Longbow offers an invaluable saving in hammers and unit maintenance. You should, in fact, have at least two and preferably three super-defenders during the Medieval Age, who receive enough promotions to protect one another.

Knights pose the first big threat to super defenders, since they ignore first strikes and are a real headache. Sure, Pikemen can defend against these, as can Elephants, but at this point you will start to take losses. A super-LB can fend off a stack of twenty units without so much as a scratch. But if five Knights attack first, they start to take damage and your other defenders have to step in. Worse, they might even be killed.

When the other continent makes contact, you will need to protect your coastal cities. You have until Chemistry/Astronomy to form a plan, at which point, things can get rough.

Thanks to BiC for kindling my interest in this format. I'd encourage all players of all levels to give this one a go: you will learn a lot about your game and non Lib. --- > Cuirassier strategies. As to some goals:

Prince level players and below:
Survive until 1 AD

Monarch level players:
Survive until 1000 AD

Emperor level players:
Survive until 1500 AD

Immortal level players:
Survive until the end.

Deity level players:
Win.

Good luck to all participants!
 

Attachments

Results:

rfcfanatic: 1380 AD.
Doshin: Attempt #1. Retired at 1585 AD.
Robert FIN: 1190 AD.
Doshin: Attempt #2. Domination in 1902 AD.
GKey: Domination in 1625 AD.
snaaty: Domination in 1525 AD.

Super-hero:

Spoiler :
Izuul:

Civ4ScreenShot0018_zps1378ce01.jpg
 
Thoughts about the opening.

This was the fifth start I generated, and I stuck with it for its flexibility. Grassland Pigs are a very strong source of food, Stone provides us with a good shot at certain early wonders, and Gold helps sustain early expansion and teching.

As things stand, there are plenty of Forests for the purposes of chopping. There are, to my mind, three possible locations in which to settle: in place, 1S, and 1E. The Warrior can only give us further information with regards to the South, so I move him accordingly:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at103215AM_zps84ac2855.jpg


Settling in place lets us work both the Stone, PH, and Floodplains. But it is also the slowest of the openings. By settling on the Plains, we have a 2 :food: 1 :hammers: capital and will require 15 turns to build a Worker. The other locations would only require 12.

By moving 1S, we give up three BFC Forests in order to secure the fastest opening possible. Settling on the Stone supplies a 2 :food: 2 :hammers: capital site, and the Floodplains will provide an additional commerce point for the first five turns.

Moving 1E, into the unknown, sacrifices several river tiles (including the Floodplains) and a Forest, but like the spot 1S, it also provides a 2 :food: 2 :hammers: capital. By working, rather than settling on the Stone, we will benefit from +1 :food: and +1 :commerce: across the course of the game (in contrast to working a Mined Plains Hill).

To me, the choice seems to be between two spots: if we settle 1S, we gain access to a better long-term capital (more river tiles) and a quicker start. We also gain the option of building Stonehenge. If we settle 1E, we secure a more defensible spot and have a better tile to work.

I think that I like the spot 1E best. Stonehenge is an interesting idea, but frankly, I would like my first GP be a Spy. It is also entirely possible that I will build the Pyramids in the near future, which will further dilute things. I suppose that I could build SH, TGW, and the Pyramids to try for a SSE... but this would place a huge burden on my early expansion. And let's not forget that we need to build an army as well.

So 1E it is. I think. I'll post my opening later tonight.
 
Looking forward to this, may give it a try. Can anyone offer some suggestions for always war games? Does the AI generally pick the closest target or a weak target?

In my games I tend to switch off all war and all infrastructure modes. I'm not sure what the happy balance is and I'm sure it's variable. How much defense is needed on borders before focusing on things like infrastructure or a conquering SoD? Any advice?

I'd rather not have the first great person a spy also, but in an all war game the boost to great generals should be pretty big and offers a nice synergy with protective.
 
Spoiler :
2nd try(lost 1 city at 25 AD vs Bismarck and decided to rerun since it was on a hill and it would have been pain i the ass to get it back)
I also settle 1E now. But really without mapknowledge i wouldn't do that. Losing 1 turn just to work the stone(having to improve it also) isn't worth it, but the fact that we have horses in the BFC is worth it. Other then that settling on the stone would be better in a normal game imo
 
Settle 1E on PH. I ve learned my lesson to always settle on hill in these AW IMM+ games. The AIs can always bypass your forts and go straight for your capital. You need the extra defense bonus for your capital.

Definitely GW, and Pyramid (early rep, police state) is always nice with stone. Oracle to COL to found Confu is also useful. W2 warriors for scouting. Settle the first GG to make CG3+D1 archers.
 
shulgi said:
Looking forward to this, may give it a try. Can anyone offer some suggestions for always war games? Does the AI generally pick the closest target or a weak target?

In my games I tend to switch off all war and all infrastructure modes. I'm not sure what the happy balance is and I'm sure it's variable. How much defense is needed on borders before focusing on things like infrastructure or a conquering SoD? Any advice?

I'd rather not have the first great person a spy also, but in an all war game the boost to great generals should be pretty big and offers a nice synergy with protective.
Click to expand...

Always War isn't a free for all: the human is the only player that automatically declares war upon meeting another civilization. This means that, once an AI has met you, they will usually remain at peace with the others until the end of the game. A warmonger like Alex or Monty might declare on another AI if they can't reach you (e.g. they meet you across the ocean through a Caravel but can't send troops to attack). But it's pretty much a case of you vs. everyone else.

As for advice, the tips provided by BiC and myself in the first post are a good place to start. I'm really not an expert, and it blows my mind that others have beaten Always War maps on Deity (with some tweaks or a little bit of luck, but still amazing play) All the same, here are a few further suggestions:
  • Settle cities on hills. This includes your capital.
  • Try to settle some blocking cities that the AI will target. Again, these must be on hills.
  • The AI sometimes chooses to bypass your block cities and head straight for your capital, which can be a nightmare. In my experience, this tends to happen when the block city is extremely well-garrisoned (say 8 Archers to counter an AI's 7 unit stack) and your capital is in the next city ring. The key is to strike a balance: move some defenders out, if you have to.
  • Hill Archers will keep you really safe until Catapults. Highly promoted Archers will keep you safe until Macemen. Longbows will keep you safe until Knights. Highly promoted Longbows will keep you safe until Grenadiers and Rifles. Try not to fall to far behind in tech.
  • It is very difficult to balance building infrastructure with building a military. To begin with, make sure that you have at least two Archers to defend each city, ideally three or four. If a city is threatened, build Walls ASAP. Make Walls your first build in your block cities. The defense cannot be taken down before Catapults. Highly promoted units minimize your losses, which allow you to build crucial infrastructure (Courthouse, Markets, Banks, etc.).
  • The Great Spy is an excellent first GP! If done properly, it is much cheaper to steal techs than to self-research them. People ignore espionage in regular games because tech trading is better than spying. That is, researching a monopoly tech (e.g. Aesthetics) is much more expensive than stealing something else, but with Aesthetics you can then trade with 6 AIs for 6 other techs, which gives much better value in the long run. But in AW, this isn't an option.
  • Try not to whip too often. Your economy is precarious, and you want your cities to work as many tiles (or run as many specialists) as they possibly can.
The best advice I can give is to play, see what works, what doesn't, and learn how to fight defensive wars. :) And feel free to post your save if you'd like specific advice.
 
I'm going to give this a shot. :) With lots and lots and lots and lots of reloading of course. :p
 
4000 - 2480 BC:

Settler 1E reveals another source of early food (I did vet this start, remember!).

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34000PM_zps2a199b42.jpg


ScreenShot2012-12-26at34040PM_zps5583d2fa.jpg

This will be an excellent capital.

Wang starts with Mysticism and Mining, so tech path goes Hunting ---> Animal Husbandry. I start on a Worker, to be built in 12 turns.

In 3640 BC, T9, the enemy Hydra reveals the first of its many heads. A Scout lead by a certain 'Qin Shi Huang' brazenly skirts our territory. Such effrontery will not go unavenged:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34229PM_zps798bc166.jpg


While exploring, we discover a source of Ivory. It is too far away to be of immediate use, but might be available in time for Construction if we really push for it:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34305PM_zpsd0631310.jpg


3480 BC, the Worker completes. 7 turns left on Animal Husbandry:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34334PM_zps6f355aba.jpg


I start to build a Warrior. In 3320 BC, the Mine completes. I work this immediately, allowing me to pasturize the Grassland Pig as soon as my Worker reaches the tile:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34535PM_zps4e719aef.jpg

With Animal Husbandry comes a nice surprise:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34703PM_zps5028bc9c.jpg

Not all animals are friendly:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34829PM_zpsc9ab40ce.jpg

After building a third Warrior, work begins on a Barracks:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at34937PM_zps1b6aaa57.jpg

Hammers invested in a building take 40 turns to decay, and there is little to be gained from spamming more Warriors. Production is switched to a Settler at size three.


In 3000 BC, I meet a second AI:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at35009PM_zps133885e4.jpg

ScreenShot2012-12-26at35102PM_zps227ba44f.jpg

Tech path goes from The Wheel ---> Masonry. The hill Pig receives a road while waiting for Masonry. 1 turn is put into a road on the Stone tile, after which I begin to build a Quarry.

In 2560 BC, I find Qin's capital:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at40028PM_zpsf220bc03.jpg


ScreenShot2012-12-26at40112PM_zps94b15359.jpg

Further effrontery! I would love to steal that Worker, but with just 1XP on my Warrior it is an impossible task. For now, I fortify on the forested hill. This will keep Qin from improving the Sugar.

Alex's border is discovered in the NW:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at40123PM_zps35ff981f.jpg

A Settler is built, which founds a city North of the capital. It is able to work the capital's BFC Gold while building a Monument:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at40219PM_zps5d10ec64.jpg

This turn, the Stone is also hooked up. Work is started on The Great Wall:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at45709PM_zps71f385a4.jpg

Stonehenge is still available, but I am not interested.

This brings us up to speed.

The scouted land at 2480 BC, T39:

Spoiler :
ScreenShot2012-12-26at40323PM_zps576df434.jpg

Two cities, three Warriors, capital requires two turns to complete a Barracks. No Woodsman II Warriors, unfortunately: my NW Warrior has 4XP, so I will try to find a barb Warrior with which to pick a fight.

Bronze Working will come in in three turns. After this, I shall tech Archery (to choke Qin further) or Agriculture (to improve Seoul's corn).
 
Revent said:
I'm going to give this a shot. :) With lots and lots and lots and lots of reloading of course. :p
Click to expand...

Excellent! It's only Immortal, so should be a cinch. ;)
 
I feel like I'm doing quite well here. I have 2 WoodsmanII warriors, lost a couple chariots but they served their purpose. Qin is choked to the max, I not only stole a worker but managed to kill a settler, as well as 2 or 3 archers out in the open. He has 2 cities with zero improved tiles. I snagged both the GW and Oracle. I took CoL with the oracle, I considered taking HBR and rushing someone, probably qin as he has no metal. But with him being protective it would be costly, I feel like those hammers would be better used expanding my empire while I still can. Plus those cities are not on hills so I'd likely not be able to hold them. The benefits of my own religion are I think far superior, I'm sure deity players agree?

I have a question, though. With stone hooked up the Chichen Itza is actually looking very tempting. Seeing as I never build it, I don't really know how the defensive bonus works. Is it a permanent 25% bonus to defenders in my cities, or can it be bombarded away like walls/cultural defense? If it's the former, I feel like it may be more powerful than even the mids here and I'd go for it. If it's the latter, it's obviously garbage.
 
ben-jammin said:
I feel like I'm doing quite well here. I have 2 WoodsmanII warriors, lost a couple chariots but they served their purpose. Qin is choked to the max, I not only stole a worker but managed to kill a settler, as well as 2 or 3 archers out in the open. He has 2 cities with zero improved tiles. I snagged both the GW and Oracle. I took CoL with the oracle, I considered taking HBR and rushing someone, probably qin as he has no metal. But with him being protective it would be costly, I feel like those hammers would be better used expanding my empire while I still can. Plus those cities are not on hills so I'd likely not be able to hold them. The benefits of my own religion are I think far superior, I'm sure deity players agree?

I have a question, though. With stone hooked up the Chichen Itza is actually looking very tempting. Seeing as I never build it, I don't really know how the defensive bonus works. Is it a permanent 25% bonus to defenders in my cities, or can it be bombarded away like walls/cultural defense? If it's the former, I feel like it may be more powerful than even the mids here and I'd go for it. If it's the latter, it's obviously garbage.
Click to expand...

Citing http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Civilization_IV/World_Wonders , Chichen Itza CAN be bombarded away. Sorry to disappoint.
 
ben-jammin said:
I feel like I'm doing quite well here. I have 2 WoodsmanII warriors, lost a couple chariots but they served their purpose. Qin is choked to the max, I not only stole a worker but managed to kill a settler, as well as 2 or 3 archers out in the open. He has 2 cities with zero improved tiles. I snagged both the GW and Oracle. I took CoL with the oracle, I considered taking HBR and rushing someone, probably qin as he has no metal. But with him being protective it would be costly, I feel like those hammers would be better used expanding my empire while I still can. Plus those cities are not on hills so I'd likely not be able to hold them. The benefits of my own religion are I think far superior, I'm sure deity players agree?

I have a question, though. With stone hooked up the Chichen Itza is actually looking very tempting. Seeing as I never build it, I don't really know how the defensive bonus works. Is it a permanent 25% bonus to defenders in my cities, or can it be bombarded away like walls/cultural defense? If it's the former, I feel like it may be more powerful than even the mids here and I'd go for it. If it's the latter, it's obviously garbage.
Click to expand...

Congrats :goodjob:. At what date did you build the Great Wall? (I just stopped at this point in my game, 2200 BC).

Unfortunately the Chichen Itza bonus can be bombarded down. If you Oracle CoLs and build it right away, there will be a very small window in which the AI lacks Catapults. But with your Wall protected hill cities, this is overkill really. Aside from that, the wonder basically gives all of your newly founded cities insta-walls (somewhat useful) and provides your cities with additional protection against pre-Gunpowder amphibious sneak attacks (on this map, probably not a concern). Also, since you have founded CoLs you can afford to generate at least two Great Prophets (one for a shrine, one for a GA).

Personally, I'd build it here and there for the fail gold, nothing more.

Edit: also, you may want to consider taking Settlers along with any attack to fill in any cities you choose to raze.
 
Doshin said:
Excellent! It's only Immortal, so should be a cinch. ;)
Click to expand...

Let's hope so! I was somewhat following the previous thread so do have a LITTLE idea of what to do! Not locked modified assets though :p Cheating becomes so tempting as a result :rolleyes:
 
Sittin here with a vodka and grapefruit juice wondering just what the long-term plan is for an always war game. If you want to win, i mean :P

Certain things are fairly obvious:

1. Espionage will be super important. The first GSpy gets settled of course, if you're lucky enough to get a second one, what then? I would think infiltrate. Emphasis will be on stealing early techs that are cheap yet crucially important. Courthouses are then far more important than usual and should be built everywhere. Spies should be run over scientists if there are no good tiles to work.

2. We need to have super GG-Longbows by the time the AI has catapults. But how many GGs should be used for promos, and how many for settling in a HE city? I suppose this depends on the pattern that develops with the AI attack waves, it will be important to minimize the number of target cities.

3. We need to have pikes around the time the fastest AI gets to knights.

4. We will need significant siege before going on the offensive is even remotely possible.

5. Winning Lib seems highly unlikely (particularly with the other continent being in a possible love-fest), and likewise winning the GA from music is probably not a good plan.

All these things are pointing towards an engineering->steel beeline with other important techs being stolen wherever possible.
 
To Turn 40:
Spoiler :

qPCk9.jpg


C8LBa.jpg


kQEzU.jpg




Plan
Spoiler :

Not sure on tech path. Think I'm going to go Med->Priesthood->Writing and Oracle CoL maybe.
Settler->TGW for now.
 

Attachments

2160BC
Spoiler :
Settled 1E. Excellent luck in finding scouts to attack with my warriors, have 1 woodsman 3, 2 woodsman 2 without abuse of reload though did reload for tech choices. Stolen two workers from Qin, just found Alex. City plans same as Revent's. May found next city where he has labeled "last" since I have not roaded to any other sites yet, West of Pyongyang looks too distant, North may good too either on hill where Doshin founded city 2 or 1 N of that spot oh, I know I should use hills for city defense, hmmm. I have proaby missed Great Wall, may replay to see how much I would have to prioritize that to get it. Will add a screenshot when imgur is back online.
 

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