English UP +

lymond

lymond

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)
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First, I'd like to mention that I'm enjoying the mod. I've recently started playing the Beta version after playing regular RFC for some time. I'll try to provide more feedback as I find things. Sorry, if there is a feedback thread, but I couldn't find one. Maybe it should be stickied.

Anyway, one thing that has me completely at-a-loss is the English UP - "Power of Cottage Economy: Workshops get +1 hammer. This seems - for lack of a better word - oxymoronic or counter-intuitive. While an extra workshop hammer in and of itself is a nice bonus, I don't understand where cottages come into play. Workshops and cottages are generally built on the same tile types, so it is either one or the other or a mix.

I guess in some part, I want to make sure I'm not missing something in the context of this UP. However, if not, it seems that it should be renamed to "Power of Hammer Economy" or reconfigured so that cottages (or at some level of cottage growth like Hamlet) the tiles receive +1 hammer - not unlike Universal Suffrage in the normal game. Actually, I tend to like the latter for the UP as more emphasis on cottages would be nice for the Brits.


On another note, I think Gunpowder comes to quick in the game. This has actually been a peeve of mine in some similar games since I'm not particularly fond of the gunpowder era and would rather play with true Medieval units for some time. In the time frame I can tech Gunpowder (c. 12 Century), technically it has been discovered by this time in the Far East, but would be extremely rudimentary and little used in the West at this time. I recommend pushing it back a century or two.
 
I quite agree with your comment on Englands UP, it should be all cottages (or maybe villages and towns if thats too unfair) get +1 hammer cus workshops suck with that -1 food.

I think gunpowder does come quite early, but its balanced. When it first comes the first gunpowder unit is 7 strength, which is crap compared to longbowman (9) pikeman (10) or knight (13), then its 11 (still not really an unfair advantage, since it has few modifiers) before its finally up to a strong level in grenadier and other units. MAYBE bump it back one tech or increase the beaker count.

yes there is a feedback thread, im not sure if its stickied, wed love to see your thoughts there.

I'm also planning on compiling a feedback guide for how to improve the mod (unfortunately the main problem is getting the modders to change it) if youd like to help

lymond said:
First, I'd like to mention that I'm enjoying the mod. I've recently started playing the Beta version after playing regular RFC for some time. I'll try to provide more feedback as I find things. Sorry, if there is a feedback thread, but I couldn't find one. Maybe it should be stickied.

Anyway, one thing that has me completely at-a-loss is the English UP - "Power of Cottage Economy: Workshops get +1 hammer. This seems - for lack of a better word - oxymoronic or counter-intuitive. While an extra workshop hammer in and of itself is a nice bonus, I don't understand where cottages come into play. Workshops and cottages are generally built on the same tile types, so it is either one or the other or a mix.

I guess in some part, I want to make sure I'm not missing something in the context of this UP. However, if not, it seems that it should be renamed to "Power of Hammer Economy" or reconfigured so that cottages (or at some level of cottage growth like Hamlet) the tiles receive +1 hammer - not unlike Universal Suffrage in the normal game. Actually, I tend to like the latter for the UP as more emphasis on cottages would be nice for the Brits.


On another note, I think Gunpowder comes to quick in the game. This has actually been a peeve of mine in some similar games since I'm not particularly fond of the gunpowder era and would rather play with true Medieval units for some time. In the time frame I can tech Gunpowder (c. 12 Century), technically it has been discovered by this time in the Far East, but would be extremely rudimentary and little used in the West at this time. I recommend pushing it back a century or two.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, just noticed the Arquebuser (sp?) is really a completely useless unit. I don't think it had much effect in real life either though. You don't hear a lot of romantic tales about this guy.

I'll try to look for the feedback and try to provide my thoughts. I've played a little English and a little Genoa, which is quite interesting. I'd say there is a lot of overall balance to the game that is needed. I'm not a modder so I can't help technically. I am a history buff though.

One main concern I have from the duration played is the tech pace compared to the production. By the time I get in the vital Forge in, I'm teching things like gunpowder and haven't put my little empire in any position to do anything in the era I really want to emphasize. Basically, a lot of things happening in the 12 century seem anachronistic based on the tech rate.
 
We won't put gunpowder further on the tech list. When the first guns were invented, they weren't very good at all. (Low accuracy etc.) It's completely historical that they are less strong then a longbowman. (A trained longbowman could kill a man with one shot, with the arquebus, you had to be lucky to hit the opponent.) But I agree they are useles. Although I don't think they should be removed. (But who gives, if you don't like them, don't build them at all. Problem solved)

On the English UP thing
If we give the extra :hammers: to the cottage (and it's upgrades), it will becomes OP. (Although I never use it because I build cottages instead of workshops) Maybe +1 :commerce: on villages and towns will do. (But I'm afraid that's OP too)
 
Honestly, regarding the English UP, my point really was not that the UP needs to change but that the title of the UP is misleading. I just don't get why it was called "Power of the Cottage Economy". I do like workshops a lot.

Yep, the arquebus really seems like a novelty in the game. I guess the issue besides low strength is that there is no innate bonus or promo to the unit.. Probably just add a high city defense since most players are probably scared to send them outside a city anyway :)

Speaking of Longbows, they seem to come way to late - almost at Gunpowder. IMO, there should be no tech for them - they should just exist.
 
lymond said:
Speaking of Longbows, they seem to come way to late - almost at Gunpowder. IMO, there should be no tech for them - they should just exist.
Click to expand...

If you leave out the tech, you are always able to build them. Linking them to a tech is only for gameplay reason.
 
The name probably refers to the English system of cottage industry, which was a pre-industrial production system. It is entirely coincidental that there is also an improvement in Civ4 called a "cottage". The wikipedia link does say that "workshop system" is another name for the same thing. Renaming the UP to that could perhaps remove some confusion?
 
Not exactly sure, but I think workshops and watermills start with an extra hammer over the normal game. Probably to offset the lack of whipping.
 
No. Currently workshop gives -1 food, +1 hammer at guilds, +2 at steam power, only English gets +3 at guilds and so on. So they are the only civ good at apprenticeship. It should be +2 initially for all civs.

And watermill gives only +1 hammer, +2 at replaceable parts, +1 gold at physics. Too weak compared with serfdom farms. I suggest +1 gold initially as buff, or reduce its buildtime.

Also, lumbermill sucks except for timber. Our forest/woodland is without bonus health, so lumbermill's value is decreased.

Maybe we can do like this: with lumbermill, forest turns to woodland in 40 turns or so.
 
youtien said:
No. Currently workshop gives -1 food, +1 hammer at guilds, +2 at steam power, only English gets +3 at guilds and so on. So they are the only civ good at apprenticeship. It should be +2 initially for all civs.

And watermill gives only +1 hammer, +2 at replaceable parts, +1 gold at physics. Too weak compared with serfdom farms. I suggest +1 gold initially as buff, or reduce its buildtime.

Also, lumbermill sucks except for timber. Our forest/woodland is without bonus health, so lumbermill's value is decreased.

Maybe we can do like this: with lumbermill, forest turns to woodland in 40 turns or so.
Click to expand...

I actually haven't used serfdom farms too much because they are really bad civics involved, but watermills are decent: 2 food 2 pro 2 gold isnt bad... but towns give what 2 food 1 pro 7 gold or something way better. I think watermills should give up to 3 production, maybe the first upgrade is at replaceable parts, and the second (putting it to +3 pro) is at physics (in addition to the 1 gold bonus). But even without that they arent bad... but hill/mines still rule the production throne with an iron fist.

Maybe as a balancing substitute if you wish to keep mines much better, have physics give +2 gold (instead of +1 pro +1 gold) or something like that
 
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