Power Democracy start? (long)

Sevorak · Sep 18, 2001

After reading extensively through this forum's backpages and through recent posts, I've finally managed to grasp the idea behind the power democracy. (Previously I did a rather ugly Commie/Fundy type thing).

I've tried to put together the power democracy in five or six games now, and it is truly powerful once I get it all together. Problem is, there's something that's clearly missing in my execution. As I assemble the pieces, I end up with a lot of fumbling around and random delays, like civil disorder at odd inconvenient moments. I also tend to tech fairly slowly (up to one every 2 turns, but that's not as quick as it could be).

Now I'm not a Deity level player (mainly because the all-war, Commie Fundy thing doesn't work there). I play Prince for challenge, King for a wall of adversity, and Emperor is beyond me. I figure learning how to properly work a democracy might get me to at least the King stage. My newbie attempts at putting together the democracy, though, have been in a series of Prince and Warlord games. I figure I should polish the technique in lower level games before I try and move higher. (And I'm having trouble in lower levels! That's not good.)

The biggest area I'm having trouble in is starting out, as in, 4000 BC --> 1 AD. So far, I've grasped the basics as: find a good spot for the capital, make city. Build a settler, found another city, both cities build another settler, plunk down two more cities. All four generate a defensive unit. The city with the best trade specials gets designated as SSC and goes for Colossus. The city with the highest production picks another Wonder, Pyramids or Hanging Gardens. The other two cities pop out a couple more settlers to colonize again. Then those two new cities make a defender, then a settler to go colonize. At eight cities (in my Warlord/Prince runs this happened circa 2400 BC), after my two chosen wonders finish, every city builds a temple, then churns out a settler to improve land. My two wonder-building cities build a Colosseum each to prevent disorder when they get too big, then work on two more wonders. Buy Michelangelo's ASAP.

At the same time, technology goes: Bro, Alp, CoL, Cer, (Mys, if Mon not available), Mon, Wri, Mys (if Lit not available), Lit, Mys (otherwise), Rep, Phi, PT, MT, Pot, Mas. Changing to Monarchy and Republic at first opportunity, setting to 30T,70S with Monarchy and 10T,10L,80S with Republic. Building, in general, Colossus, Pyramids, and buying Michelangelo's. Hopefully getting Great Library. Concede Hanging Gardens. Ignore Oracle since it expires too quickly and Bach's is better. Concede Great Wall and Lighthouse.

As the game progresses, pick up Cur, Tra, Hor, Whe, Eng, War, Feu, The. As soon as Trade is discovered, the six non-wonder cities build caravans. Each wonder city gets three. Then they swap caravans among each other until everyone's up to 3 routes. Each city then builds Marketplaces and Aqueducts. As soon as those are complete, jam on the luxuries, generate citizens until 12. Non-wonder cities send settlers out to colonize again, adding four to six cities. Priority emphasis on building J.S. Bach's. At the same time, research Uni, Inv, Ban, Dem, Med, San, Ast, ToG, San (not necessarily in that order, I forget where sometimes the right advance does not show up). Copernicus', Newton's, Library, University go in the SSC. When Sanitation acquired, switch to Democracy right away, push taxes as far as they'll go without disorder, lower science to 0. Gather cash for two to three turns, then buy Sewers everywhere, jack the luxuries, and max out the cities.

The major problems I have include inconvenient disorders, cash flow problems, and AI civs attacking me while I attempt to get this whole economic thing going. I play MGE, if that means anything. I know the AI sneak attacks a lot and declares war a lot, which really messes things up (building military units, and war before Suffrage and Shake's, even in Rep, is very disruptive).

So...I know that was a lot, but could someone skilled in the arts of the power democracy (starlifter, I'm looking in your direction) please give me a hint as to where exactly I'm screwing up?

Thanks in advance.

-Sev

starlifter · Sep 19, 2001

Holy Handgrenades, Batman... your posts are about as long as mine, LOL!

I also tend to tech fairly slowly (up to one every 2 turns, but that's not as quick as it could be).

You might shoot for 1 every turn, within a 5 or so turns after reaching Corporation. This is true no matter what difficulty level you play, but the military situation can delay this if you've let an AI with more than one city keep up with you in the tech race.

The biggest area I'm having trouble in is starting out, as in, 4000 BC --> 1 AD.

For what it's worth, that's my worst part of the game, too. IMHO, Shadowdale has the best BC era game, and several players like Smash and Cactus Pete are quite good, too.

Buy Michelangelo's ASAP.

For me, MC is far and away the most valuable wonder in the game. Many like Leo's (and I do too!), but if you really keep on a torrid science race, your stealth fighters and Armor will be attacking warriors... and Leo's can be put off. Or just go capture it before it expires.

My two wonder-building cities build a Colosseum each to prevent disorder when they get too big, then work on two more wonders.

I don't build colosseums until late game, when cities grow past the 13 or 14 citizen size (at deity). If a city does not need a coloseum (late game), it don't get no expensive colosseum!

Build a settler, found another city, both cities build another settler, plunk down two more cities. All four generate a defensive unit.

Cities with lots of excess food generat settlers. My SSC does not. Ever. (well, if I fumble around and don't get sanitation before it is ready to grow from 12 to 13, I'll let it make a settler) It's function is to grow, not spawn. My wonder cities don't support (and usually don't build) units, either.

Many of my cities are not defended with military units. No time, and I don't like shield support... diplomats snag plenty of barbs if you use Raging Hordes. BTW, I'm not a MP player... but this low defense tactic is probably only useful against the hapless AI. Shadowdale builds the fewest units of anyone around, so you might study his GOTM games in 1 AD... they are pretty amazing. I often "defend" with a waitng caravan. Caravans (waiting to build a wonder) defend the same as a warrior, but cost no shields for support in a Republic. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

technology goes: Bro, Alp, CoL, Cer, (Mys, if Mon not available), Mon, Wri, Mys (if Lit not available), Lit, Mys (otherwise), Rep, Phi, PT, MT, Pot, Mas.

Me: Alp, CoL, CB, xxx, Monarchy!, Writing, Literacy, Philosophy (asap), .... I don't research Map Making or Bronze Working... those come in trade, or sometimes huts. I hate HBR and Pottery in early game at Deity, as they slow other research.

At eight cities (in my Warlord/Prince runs this happened circa 2400 BC), after my two chosen wonders finish, every city builds a temple,

My wonder cities (and SSC) don't build temples or settlers. The SSC, and any true wonder city, have their improvements RB'd or PRB'd. I buy improvements, not wonders. (2 gold vs 4 gold for a shield)

Republic. Building, in general, Colossus, Pyramids, and buying Michelangelo's. Hopefully getting Great Library. Concede Hanging Gardens. Ignore Oracle since it expires too quickly and Bach's is better. Concede Great Wall and Lighthouse.

Pretty much what I personally do. But I don't buy wonders. Too expensive. Buy caravans, or improvements. If it comes down to it, I'll give up the Pyramids for Colossus. I could not believe that the first game I've ever played at Warlord made me do that, but GOTM 8 did... but when the Japs built the Pyramids, I bribed that city shortly after to get them. Colossus and all science wonders (plus Shakespeares) are irreplacable and cannot be recovered properly by capture. Even MC (the most valuable wonder in the game to me) can be captured if you don't build it. But you can't move science wonders to your SSC, so you must build those, in the right city, yourself.

As soon as Trade is discovered, the six non-wonder cities build caravans. Each wonder city gets three. Then they swap caravans among each other until everyone's up to 3 routes. Each city then builds Marketplaces and Aqueducts.

As much as I like trade, that is just not possible in most deity games. Typically, the wonder races are too tight, so only the SSC gets routes early on. The other caravans go into wonders. On easier levels, or a great map, you may have excess to make routes. Just be sure you have the correct road path to get the extra bonuses.

Bach's is better.

JS Bach is my #2 rated wonder, behind MC. It cannot be duplicated or replaced, so you must build or capture it. It's essential for growing an early Democracy, esp. if you are in a war.

Forget the Great Library if you have an SSC and plan on republic or democracy. It is totally unnecessary. The key wonder is really Marco Polo, believe it or not! With it, the AIs are your science slaves, esp. at Deity where the AI can actually complete (in a timely way) the research you "command" it to.

When Sanitation acquired, switch to Democracy right away, push taxes as far as they'll go without disorder, lower science to 0. Gather cash for two to three turns, then buy Sewers everywhere, jack the luxuries, and max out the cities.

That might work, but I don't do it that way. Key cities (usually the SCC plus one or two others) begin a colosseum or palace the turn before Sanitation is discovered. With Sanitation, the sewers are completed (RB'd) and the city is maxed. If a colosseum is needed (or anyting else) in the SSC, it is RB'd or PRB'd after a few seed shields are accumulated in the box for one turn. The SSC has top priority over everything in the empire. Even wars wait on the SSC.

I play MGE, if that means anything.

Means a cantankerous AI, according to many. I play MGE, too, so it's all I know. But I always keep a spotless reputation anyway. There are sneaky ways of making the AI do thy bidding in a democracy, even without the UN.

The major problems I have include inconvenient disorders, cash flow problems, and AI civs attacking me while I attempt to get this whole economic thing going.

As you get used to Democracy, you'll almost never have disorder. But you have to check the cities at the end of each turn. Never, ever allow the SSC to have a disorder. A one-turn Elvis is much preferred to disorder.

Cash flow is eventaully solved as the cities grow and caravans get going. Seek out and kill those barbs. Play Raging Hordes... the 150g helps a lot. Try to ally with civs early on when you are weak, then avoid contact for 4,000 years (unless you are adept at reading the AI intentions).

I know the AI sneak attacks a lot and declares war a lot, which really messes things up (building military units, and war before Suffrage and Shake's, even in Rep, is very disruptive).

Not a problem. Keep the war near their cities, and not near your weakly defended ones. get lots of NONE units... troll for barbs... set barb traps... find (or cause) a barb "farm" city. Bribe AI NONE warriors & let Leos make NONE Riflemen.

Keep the war away from your SSC!!!

If war is necessary before Industrialization, use republic. Build courthouses, esp. of you must remain in Republic for a long time due to war. move your capital (RB it) to your SSC if you must stay in republic fo a long time.

Sometimes, I don't switch to democracy until around Railroad, but if my cities (esp. the SSC!) are ready for Democracy before then, I'll switch sooner. Usually, I'll try to discover Deomcracy in an Oedo year, too.

Hope that all helps. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Sevorak · Sep 20, 2001

All right, I've left out the colosseums and sped up a bit. What I do right now is build extra settlers while waiting on Michelangelo's. The only thing is, this is working in Prince, but how is this going to work in Emperor+? I mean, on Prince I get something like four contents before unhappiness sets in. Am I going to be generating settlers to cap every city at two before Michelangelo's finishes? Or am I just going to be making a large supply of entertainers? Setting lots of luxuries while still in Monarchy? Snapping up the Hanging Gardens instead of the Great Library helps some. My SSC - usually my capital - tends to build that to allow a size of at least six.

Leaving out military units in the beginning is also working a lot better for me. As long as I keep my frontier cities defended, things work out. However, some specific questions.

1.) In a recent game, I was teching hard for Democracy and made the switch around 680 BC. I advanced at a decent pace, but advance rates started slowing and I had to divert more and more trade into taxes and luxuries. I ended up at 30 Tax, 50 Science, and 20 Luxury, gaining an advance every 3 turns. By this time, my SSC was gathering 121 trade, but due to 50% sci was only generating 400-500 beakers or so. I was only making 5 or so gold a turn, either. Any adjustment would lead to lower sci, bankruptcy, or civil disorder. I suspect that I didn't have enough cities (35) but expansion is kind of hard.

2) Linking in with the first question: what do you do when you run out of space for cities? I always build cities for "good" city spots - i.e., at least one special and no overlap. By this time, other continents tend to be dominated by other civs, so I can't just expand, and technologically I haven't fully modernized yet - I'd be looking at Cavalry vs. Pikemen/Musketeers instead of Stealth Fighters vs. Phalanx. Pikemen and Musketeers delay Cavalry/Artillery far too well, and I haven't got U.N. yet so my Senate keeps signing peace. So if I can't make war and grab cities and space, what do I do?

3) When should I begin building Caravans/Freight and begin seriously swapping them for the gold and science? After about which city improvement? I don't intend to use the FCT or build 1000+ simultaneous freight, but I do want to start cashing in freight, for the tech bonus if for nothing else. And when I do start turning in freight for the bonus, how do I avoid letting the AI get too fat tech-wise off the bonus - and more importantly, how do I get it to stop negotiating with the freight and declaring war?

4) Diplomats. At what point should I start up Diplomat production? How many diplomats are enough? Comments by many people imply swarms of hundreds of spies charging into civilizations, as well as having a diplomat pretty much everywhere to bribe anything earlier on. How do you get the money to mass-bribe before the time of great freight exchange?

Another mouthful of questions - sorry about all that. Just trying to be, ah...precise.

-Sev

P.S. shadowdale, smash....other people....muchly appreciated if you could also offer some brief comments, at least about the BC era. Always eager to learn....

starlifter · Sep 21, 2001

What I do right now is build extra settlers while waiting on Michelangelo's. The only thing is, this is working in Prince, but how is this going to work in Emperor+? I mean, on Prince I get something like four contents before unhappiness sets in. Am I going to be generating settlers to cap every city at two before Michelangelo's finishes?

LOL, now you are beginning to see why I have always said that, hands down, MC is the most valuable wonder in the game... esp. for a large, sprawling empire at Deity. JS Bach is just behind. Your entire empire will grind to a slow crawl without MC. Get it. And don't "waste" your time researching Horseback Riding, Map Making, Warrior Code, etc. The Great Library can give you all kinds of "wasteful" advances, too. You'll get the all eventually anyway, but I don't like getting advances indiscriminately... better to control the timing with Marco Polo.

Or am I just going to be making a large supply of entertainers? Setting lots of luxuries while still in Monarchy?

Neither. I have 2 policies that I almost never violate.

#1 - Never use entertainers until a city reaches size 37, or if necessry to continue WLT__ days in Republic or Democracy.

#2 - Always set 0% Lux in Monarchy or Communism or Fundy. Always set 60% in Anarchy. Almost always set 30% or more in a Democracy (starting about Industrialization, I almost never stop growing... and I feed my cities a plateful of Luxuries to keep it going smoothtly). Republic varies wildly, from 0% (with MC & small cities) up to 80% to grow in bursts.

Snapping up the Hanging Gardens instead of the Great Library helps some. My SSC - usually my capital - tends to build that to allow a size of at least six.

I usually don't build either, at Deity. You gotta pick your wonder races at Deity... only on very rare occasions can you get them all. Given the Choice, I'd take HG for early republic, though.

1.) In a recent game, I was teching hard for Democracy and made the switch around 680 BC. ... Any adjustment would lead to lower sci, bankruptcy, or civil disorder. I suspect that I didn't have enough cities (35) but expansion is kind of hard.

You gotta take the slack up with caravans. Deliver caravans to get gold and science. Micro-manange your T/S/L settings... check your trade advisor for exact science costs. One turn, I may have 0% tax, and the next 80%. It depends on the science progress, and the military needs. Gold is how I usually take AI cities for most of the game. In mid & late game, I have more and more "emergency" caravans/freight that can be used for several things, especially if needed to get the gold for a juicy bribe or subversion. My full trade system is just too longwinded to explain here, but I've gone over most of it in other threads, FWIW. (I think the search function can pull it up). Plus, others have good techniques, too... though most are probably not as interlocked and comprehensive with non-trade related stuff as mine.

About the slider... I typically decide the L setting, and lock it. T & S then must fight over the remainder.

Hunt barbs very aggressively. Set traps, and play at raging hordes. Leaders are worth 150g, and 150g can help a lot in the 1st half of the game.

2) Linking in with the first question: what do you do when you run out of space for cities? I always build cities for "good" city spots - i.e., at least one special and no overlap.

Good spots are nice, but depending on your "real time" patience, and the goal of the game, I often disregard the present terrain and visualize it all as grassland. Transformations can convert all. However, this is really only necessry if you are going for a high score (see my own HOF game for my ideas about this).

In other games though, I compromise and view hills with airfields on them, and don't bother transforming eitehr hills or especially those pesky mountains. I just build around Mtns.

By this time, other continents tend to be dominated by other civs, so I can't just expand, and technologically I haven't fully modernized yet - I'd be looking at Cavalry vs. Pikemen/Musketeers instead of Stealth Fighters vs. Phalanx. ... and I haven't got U.N. yet so my Senate keeps signing peace. So if I can't make war and grab cities and space, what do I do?

If there is such a thing as skill in Civ II SP, this is the $64,000 question. Long ago, I learned to fight/build in a democracy. Be patient. Think "George Bush". Learn to read the AI. Keep your forces mobile and small in a Democracy, and when you fight, hit hard with an exact plan, down to the unit, of every move. Take all the cities you can in one turn, and carefully plan exactly how the partisans will occur (if the AI has communism & gunpower). Make sure you don't come face to face till you city killing is done, cause the senate is gunna put a stop to the war when you do. At that time, you consolidate, build, and grow the conqured cities and begin baiting the AI... put a caravan in there and let the AI sneak attack it... then take some more cities.

Your vet Cavalry should take care of Musketeers and pikemen, even thru walls... unless the AI is on defensible terrain, and/or making vets. If you're facing vets, build approx. 20% more vet calvary, and suck up the losses... or else send lots of dips in to get the walls. Some people will send 5 or 8 dips in to get the walls (which are usually the last to go). I don't like that method, but then there are better early/mid game war mongers like Smash and Cactus Pete than me.

3) When should I begin building Caravans/Freight and begin seriously swapping them for the gold and science?

Easy. Democracy, in general.

After about which city improvement?

Improvements are not the key. Advances are. Navigation, RR, Flight in particular... this sets the bonus amount.

For instance, after Flight, the bonus is only 33%. So I forbid freight delivery until both cities of mine have an airport. It also means after flight, I will immediately get Radio... and usually on the same turn. And my key airports are pre-started, then prduction switched and PRB'd or RB's. Any way you cut it, one turn later, I got lots of airports... but the planning was all done long before.

Similar story for Automobile and building SHs.

I don't intend to use the FCT or build 1000+ simultaneous freight, but I do want to start cashing in freight, for the tech bonus if for nothing else.

I personally don't use the FCT either, but would if I wanted a 18,000+ point game... that's the only way for a true mongo score like Shadowdale's Deity HOF game.

I don't build 1,000 freight simultaneously, but cumulatively on a big map, you bet. Simultaneously, more like 70 to 120 is what I have setting around... lots in reserve, and used as necessary for RBs and PRBs, or spaceship parts. Typically, I consume about 5 to 9 freight per turn to get one advance for freight.

And when I do start turning in freight for the bonus, how do I avoid letting the AI get too fat tech-wise off the bonus - and more importantly, how do I get it to stop negotiating with the freight and declaring war?

LOL, everyone worries about the AI... I give teh AI everything anyway, and then take all their gold in conquest. Now playing humans in an MP game (which I currently don't play MP), I'd rethink this. Humans are too smart to give them trade.

But you can minimize AI trade windfalls by concentrating all your deliveries in one or two key AI cities... be sure to pick an overseas one with both SH and Airports, with at least 18 or so trade-terrains being used. Then you'll be maxing lots of deliveries.

I don't understand the part about negotiating and war. If you want a war, needle the AI with your freight sitting around on their Roads and RRs. Put an engineer or double spy next to an AI city. They'll usually attack soon enough (depending on relative power, reputation, and lots of other little things), so be ready.

4) Diplomats. At what point should I start up Diplomat production? How many diplomats are enough? Comments by many people imply swarms of hundreds of spies charging into civilizations, as well as having a diplomat pretty much everywhere to bribe anything earlier on. How do you get the money to mass-bribe before the time of great freight exchange?

I writing is an early priority for me, right after Monarchy. One dip per eery 3 or so cities at first. gotta gotta gotta have them to get the barbs if you have no walls and caravans as defenders. And you gotta gotta gotta keep some gold (about 100) in the bank to bribe, or be ready to sell temples and (UGH!) use entertainers or luxuries as a stop-gap. Better to keep gold in the bank.

On a large map, all out random deity 7 player game, I want 100 to 120 spies. Maybe 50 dips, though. But it really depends on the game. Almost all my pax ships at sea have a dip/spy or the get their butt back and onload one.

In early game, you don't have the gold for everything. I spend more on improvements and barbs eary on, and generally bribe cities later.

shadowdale, smash....other people....muchly appreciated if you could also offer some brief comments, at least about the BC era.

You can PM them if they don't find this thread. Smash is probably about the best all-around civ player, and some people like Shadowdale and me pretty much do SP only. Lots of people are pretty darned good at their own fortes, and looking at the GOTM archives can give you good ideas, too.

Out of space... at the 10,000 character limit. Good luck.

shadowdale · Sep 21, 2001

Originally posted by Sevorak
All right, I've left out the colosseums and sped up a bit. What I do right now is build extra settlers while waiting on Michelangelo's.

Well I never see myself as waiting for MC - I always expand expand expand - and when I get the tech so that I can build the important wonders(And Starlifter is right, happy wonders are probably the most important, especially on higher levels) then I assign one city to build it and probably a few to help it

The only thing is, this is working in Prince, but how is this going to work in Emperor+? I mean, on Prince I get something like four contents before unhappiness sets in. Am I going to be generating settlers to cap every city at two before Michelangelo's finishes?

Well I probably care to much about happiness - even on the lower levels, because I hate changing my game to much, but since I always expand I never seem to have that problem - at least not very much - I usually build settlers until there are no free spots close by and then one to irrigate and then three trade routs (since I always trade domestically that means 1.5 caravan per city) and then temple, marketplace, aquaduct, bank, colossum - after that it pretty much depends on what techs I have.

Leaving out military units in the beginning is also working a lot better for me. As long as I keep my frontier cities defended, things work out. However, some specific questions.

I agree it helps speed up the game, if you don't always build defensive unites - I hardly ever do, but that i also connected to the fact that I never really go to war - when I find an opponent I change my tax rate to max and build two diplo/spies oer enemy city and then buy them all - except the capital but I usually get a lot of unites while buying the Civ that I can take the capital with them - sometime I tkae out the capital first so that the cities will be cheaper.

1.) In a recent game, I was teching hard for Democracy and made the switch around 680 BC. I advanced at a decent pace, but advance rates started slowing and I had to divert more and more trade into taxes and luxuries. I ended up at 30 Tax, 50 Science, and 20 Luxury, gaining an advance every 3 turns. By this time, my SSC was gathering 121 trade, but due to 50% sci was only generating 400-500 beakers or so. I was only making 5 or so gold a turn, either. Any adjustment would lead to lower sci, bankruptcy, or civil disorder. I suspect that I didn't have enough cities (35) but expansion is kind of hard.

Well trade is Alpha & Omega in Civ2 - before I came here I didn't use trade - I somehow managed to get a few high scores anyway but that wasonly because I always expand and take out every civ that I meet. But you really want to have three trade routs in every city.

2) Linking in with the first question: what do you do when you run out of space for cities? I always build cities for "good" city spots - i.e., at least one special and no overlap. By this time, other continents tend to be dominated by other civs, so I can't just expand, and technologically I haven't fully modernized yet - I'd be looking at Cavalry vs. Pikemen/Musketeers instead of Stealth Fighters vs. Phalanx. Pikemen and Musketeers delay Cavalry/Artillery far too well, and I haven't got U.N. yet so my Senate keeps signing peace. So if I can't make war and grab cities and space, what do I do?

Well my answer would be: that depends on what you want with your game - I have some compulsion to alway try and make the perfect Civ - that dominates the entire world and only leaves one pet civ around. But I have played games where I never wanted more than 20-30 cities. If you want to dominate the world you will probably have to build a few cities with overlapping - but you don't ahve to, all yuou need to do is to expand into enemy territory byt conquest - you can always move their cities later in the game.

3) When should I begin building Caravans/Freight and begin seriously swapping them for the gold and science? After about which city improvement? I don't intend to use the FCT or build 1000+ simultaneous freight, but I do want to start cashing in freight, for the tech bonus if for nothing else. And when I do start turning in freight for the bonus, how do I avoid letting the AI get too fat tech-wise off the bonus - and more importantly, how do I get it to stop negotiating with the freight and declaring war?

Well this is Starlifters domain - I have used the FCT in my HoF game and I will NEVER EVER do it again, that was so boring and time consuming that I would rather lose a game than do that again. But back to the normal caravans - I don't really use caravans except to get those three trade routs in every city - after that I put the cities on capitalization if there is nothing more to build and then let them be.

I hope that I could be of some accistance - but remember that no mater what is posted here and what good advice we giove you - you should try everything that the gamehas to offer and find your own way - there are always lots of discussions about what is best in Civ, and nothing is. There is only something that is best for you, and that is what ever suits your induvidual playing style.

HAve fun

:sniper:

jc011 · Sep 21, 2001

someone hoping to reach the max characters or something??

well, right now im playing on king, and right now and i am not doing too well, my early democracy only gives me a tech in 10 turns, but after a while it closes down to about 3. Adam's smith is definetely (to me anyway) an important wonder to boost up your science without going into loses. in my current game, i failed to get very key wonders and right now, im in a rut. No adam's smith, leo, observatory, and others and my tech comes in 5 turns and the year is about 1850, i doubt i'll be able to win this one but who knows?

Archbob · Sep 23, 2001

If I do 100%, I can get about 2 techs every turn. But in order to be rich, my science is usually around 40% which gets me one every 2 turns, which is good enough.

jc011 · Sep 23, 2001

how do you guys manage to get so much science?? looks like i've still got a lot to learn

What does the tax rate thing say -1 turns?

i can get one every 3 - 4, sometime 2 turns, which is good for me at least

Sevorak · Sep 24, 2001

All right, after trying yet another set of BC drills, and still not managing to get techs fast enough - often at times WAITING on key techs - I finally figured out what I should have realized some time ago. Tech trading. And gifting. Boom, instant 200 year speed increase.

I guess I still hadn't fully shed my basic Commie Fundy mentality since I was still playing in "GET YOUR FILTHY HANDS OFF MY TECHS" mode.

Just one question this time: How best to use technology trading and gifting to accelerate your start? As in, up to what tech should you gift, and when should you trade?

-Sev

starlifter · Sep 24, 2001

I guess I still hadn't fully shed my basic Commie Fundy mentality since I was still playing in "GET YOUR FILTHY HANDS OFF MY TECHS" mode.

Just one question this time: How best to use technology trading and gifting to accelerate your start? As in, up to what tech should you gift, and when should you trade?

I know your feeling about Commie... I used to feel the same way. It was learning to play OCC's that I begrudgingly started to really come around, though.

The question about gifting is not cut and dry. But in general, the AI gets everything. I used to withhold flight, and sometime higher techs, but if the AI is under control, they get it all. My one exception is sometimes Fundy... they tend to switch to fundy if you give it to them, and I don't want them cranking out lots of units. I want them in Democracy, one city left, and choked off so they can't support many units.

As for timing, I trade when I'll get something that I actually need. I hate early game advances that I don't want yet, since it slows science. But once my SSC is up and humming, I kick their teeth in and take/trade it all.

Sevorak · Sep 26, 2001

All right, a few more questions arising from some situations I didn't know how to handle.

1) Gifting and trading techs again. In a recent game, I was able to stuff the French in a tiny little corner, connected to the mainland only by a single mountain. I fortified some Archers (later becoming Musketeers then Rifles through Leo's) upon that mountain. The AI being the AI, it did not load settlers on a ship, so it built all of five cities inside the little patch, and failed multiple times to pass the mountain - I even managed to build a rather nice city inside that area on a 4-special site. The French appeared to be under control, so I gifted them a pile of techs. I was at peace with them, and furthermore was stuffing Paris full of Hides after I found out that Paris wouldn't stop demanding them. They completed one research for me, then signed an alliance against my aggression, sneak-attacked me, and traded off the techs to the fair-sized civ I did NOT have pinned into a corner. I was waging an on-again, off-again military campaign against them and having to suddenly face Riflemen (vs. my cavalry) stunted the progress of the campaign horribly. How do you stop that?

2) Settler-Republic problems. I always have this problem. What I try to do is keep expanding to keep every city to a size of two, since even during the drills I pretend it's Emperor at least. The thing is, in the key period while I'm waiting for Michelangelo's, often there just aren't any city sites within 15-20 turns of the city that built the settler. So while I'm walking the settler out, another one is made. Furthermore, with all the settlers I'm churning out, one makes a city and the rest have to walk further. I commonly come across situations, furthermore, where I get the "delay or disband city" dialogue. Since the city is where I want it, I have to "delay" and lose all the accumulated shields. During this time, my money is low and my science is low, because I can't switch to Republic (I used to switch to Rep ASAP, but in the massive expansion phase, switching to a Settler maintenance cost of two food, one shield tends to cause cities to go into hunger, shortage or both). I also can't build caravans to help build Michelangelo's, since if they stop building settlers, the cities get too big and go into disorder (or what would be disorder if it was Emperor). I try building temples, but I have to PRB all of them since otherwise, the city gets too big. And while I'm PRB'ing, my treasury gets drained and the maintenance costs stack up to slaughter my income. What's going wrong?

3) City siting problems. I don't see how you can site cities so easily. Sure, I can try to visualize all the terrain as grassland, hills or mountains (building away from mountains) but in the early stages, when I can't transform, building a city near <3 grassland always seems to result in city growth stalling at 2-3. Now, I wouldn't mind for city growth to stop for a while - the only problem is, cities like that starve themselves when they build settlers. Not only that, but by the phase where I DO have Michelangelo's and the Hanging Gardens and some luxuries, I want them to WLTXD up to 8, not stall due to lack of food - and addressing the problem requires twenty to thirty turns of land improvement, like irrigating every plains at the least. Obviously, that slows the rate of expansion. Solution?

Sorry for the long questions again, but my attempt at developing a personal style is ending in horrid disaster. I picked up GOTM 8 to see how my science did...yech. People were picking up Space Flight in 120 BC, while I got Democracy around then. But that fits more in the GOTM forum, and I'm using up enough space here

-Sev

starlifter · Sep 26, 2001

... I was waging an on-again, off-again military campaign against them ...How do you stop that?

First caveat... there is no cookbook recipe, and I personally have a very complex set of things that I look at to get the "feel" of what I'm doing.

In a nutshell, once I get the Alliance, I won't let it go until I'm ready to kill the civ. I ensure that I can withstand a first attack (sneak) at any time, when there is no alliance.

How to keep the Alliance. Answer: minimal ground unit contact, and Gifting. Keep the AI separated by your expansion. Don't let them meet, and they can't exchange tech. You want to control who gets what and when. It will not be possible 100%, so make sure everyone who is cooperating has about equal tech, and make sure you are the one that benefited from giving it to them. They will get it anyway.

Settler-Republic problems. I always have this problem.

You have opened a Pandora's box. The short answer is experience and judgment, while prioritizing. Usually, you can't do it ALL at the same time.

Myself, I tend to sacrifice a strong early military, and skip ancient naval use. I aggressively hunt Barb leaders, and this is a primary function of what little ancient navy I have.

I don't like entertainers, and use multiple taxmen in monarchy to control happiness. Irrigation and MC allows size 6-8 cities with a couple taxmen when they typically stagnate with about 50 to 80 cities on a large map.

Caravans are the key to gold, and can balance and fund you most important efforts in the early years.

I commonly come across situations, furthermore, where I get the "delay or disband city" dialogue. Since the city is where I want it, I have to "delay" and lose all the accumulated shields.

Indicative of massively poor prior planning! Switch to caravan or diplomat, don't waste!!

I also can't build caravans to help build Michelangelo's, since if they stop building settlers, the cities get too big and go into disorder (or what would be disorder if it was Emperor).

Use taxmen or scientists to control happiness. Let the city stagnate in Monarchy, if you have not timed your game right. Get to SoL and Democracy... use Fundy/Commie if you cannot control your democracy. GET OUT OF MONARCHY... even republic is better. Raise Luxuries, even up to 80%, to get those cities big, then drop back to 10% or 20% LUX and let the science/taxes/trade bonuses roll in.

CONTROL YOUR CITY HAPPINESS!! Or get out of that particular Govt!!

Obviously, that slows the rate of expansion. Solution?

Three words: COASTAL CITIES, HARBORS.

In some ways, the harbor can be the most powerful improvement in the game. Once it is built, all the food and trade will practically assure a size 7 Deity city in low-corruption Republic cities.

Once the city is GROWN to 7 or 8, move the citizens to land squares and begin production of Caravans, etc.

Irrigate/road key cities, and skip the rest until you have time and/or get engineers. Shadowdale's early games are the absolute best of anyone in CivFanatics, bar none. Study his GOTM games, particularly in 1 AD, and see how he uses roads & irrigation to aid his Republics. He's consistently able to extract two to eight times as much "settler-days" of work by 1 AD than the next best person on any given map. He pretty much skips all defense early on in favor of expansion, settlers, Temple, Marketplace, Library, Wonders, Diplomats, and 3 trade routes per city (1.5 caravans per city). Though my own methods are similar, I still hold back a little more than he does by making a few defenders. I'm still working on physically expanding as rapidly, and perfecting the terrain as much.

Early on, I tend to work hard to get my Republic cities up to 7 or 8 quickly because I want production and economy rapidly, while Shadowdale is more content to expand with smaller city sizes and a Luxury of 0 or 10% and let the cities grow by adding food. As a result, his science is very good... and his tech helps overcome the Infidels.

People were picking up Space Flight in 120 BC,

120 BC is about right for GOTM 8. Remember, it is warlord... which means 200 game Turns at 1 AD in this case. You should see a lot of Space Flight before 1 AD. BTW, I am in 1 AD in that game, and will attempt (finish making) a 1-turn SS for launch in AD 20, if all goes well tomorrow, and post my game up to that point for reference. I also have a detailed log in the GOTM 8 Spoiler thread for comparison.

Sevorak · Oct 14, 2001

All right, so I've gone through another thirty or so Prince level drills to polish my early game. First off: it's starting to work. The early game is coming together nicely. I can usually get a goodly number of cities, finish MC, flip to Republic, and get the entire early empire thing clicking together nicely. So I took a few of those drill games to the modern era, fairly easily (and to think I used to believe Prince a challenge, as in the first post). But, as always, questions.

1) I've been using your GOTM8 logs as approximations, game-turn wise, of where I should be in terms of tech at various specific game turns. What I've found in my last fifteen or so drills is that I can keep up well up to about where you got Steel. Just before this point, your science rate is one every four turns, which I can achieve. After Steel, however, your science rate goes to one every two, then one per turn, then you kick it into overdrive and start grabbing two per turn. I can't accelerate to one per turn without going to something like 0T,80S,20L. Getting more than one just doesn't work. I assume this has something to do with trade, which leads into...

2) How do you get the big cash-in freights so early? I find that only overseas Uranium gives me the 3000+ gold/science that really powers up the science rate. While I start trading around Democracy, even cashing demanded goods nets me only about 100-200 gold/science per caravan/freight. Even in the modern age, with SH's and Airports in every city, with every city maxed out on trade and railed together, I rarely get a large amount for freight. Cashing demanded Gems gets between 400 and 800, for example. Cashing demanded Dye only 200 to 400. When I cash freight that isn't demanded, I get things like 60-80. Even Oil gets no better than 500-900, and that's when it's demanded between two high trade cities, and Oil demands are fairly rare.

So, since I can work the caravan system usefully (with Uranium) but not as usefully as it can be used (evidently), I'd appreciate a post which would clarify trading methods for me (especially proper use of the ship chain!). I tried searching the forum, using as search parameters your name and trade and freight, but all I could find were posts telling me to search for something that you thought was too long to repeat - and I couldn't find the original you didn't want to "repeat"! :lol:

I DID find one incredibly helpful thread, but it seems to be a little hazy on the actual setup of the trade system.

Therefore, despite plagues that may be brought upon my head by the moderator, I respectfully request a 10,000 character (max) course in Starlifter School of Trade 101.

-Sev

rysingsun · Jul 23, 2002

first of all always play deity. now suppose you are playing the large world map. you start in east asia and get up to around democracy, a good point to start making caravans your priority item for all new cities. settle a city in the americas where all your caravans are probably going anyway. make it a a priority to rush to completion trade improvements in this city. this city will one day be given to your enemy. when you discover both radio and automoblie you will (rush to completion) your final trade improvement in this particular city. this is where you try to give it to your enemy by inciting war. now you have a perfect city to bring your freight to.

also early in the game when deciding where to bring your caravans see if you can choose a civ thats renown for choosing democracy. bring caravans to several of its cities in good trade spots to incite them to grow rapidly thru celebrations. later in the game these cities will be trade powerhouses for your freight.

doesnt an engineer provide 15 gold per turn? yes, because if he builds a road next to a city with 3 trade routes market bank stock exchange (etc) the trade of that city will go up 15 gold or so. next turn he builds another road and now you get still 15 more gold. grassland without a road is a big shame. build those roads! build them fast.

rysingsun · Jul 24, 2002

and regarding the problem of "power democracies are good but hard to start up". they are hard to start up because they require advanced techs and at least one large city for trading to work well. the whole theory behind it works as follows: we all know that its worthwhile to spend shields on a factory even though for 20 odd turns you COULD have been building something like military units that would actually allow you to pillage and conquer. its a delayed gratification thing because you look to the future for greater production. well its the same situation when you spend gold to rush a marketplace to completion to generate an extra 10 gold in that city. an extra 10 gold .. think about it ... the marketplace only cost 160 gold to rush so it will pay for itself in 16 turns if you rush complete it. the same goes for all the gold generating improvements like caravans and road-building engineers. but here is the frustrating part. early in the game it just doesnt seem to work well. and why? because you are under monarchy and your city is producing all of 5 gold. you rush a marketplace and it now produces 7 gold. of the 2 extra gold one is used to pay support cost for the market. you have the same problem with caravans. the thing takes 30 turns to reach its destination it pays 50 gold when it gets there and increases your gold from the host city by 2 gold per turn. hardly a the power democracy we were hoping for. this is why in part ive changed my early strategy by building caravans for the purpose of rushing wonders. i research monarchy then trade then start building caravans. then i get pottery and mysticism and dump my caravans into the wonders HG and oracle. who says oracle expires too soon? i disagree. its a good wonder. it allows me to build 20 or 30 size one cities and NOT have happiness problems. then when i get democracy and monotheism for MC im ready with a ton of size 1 2 and 3 cities. oracle gives me the equivalent of 20 or 30 temples and i think thats worthwhile dont you? when i discover monotheism theology and the later wonder allowing advances i usually just pay gold to rush the wonders. getting MC 15 turns early may make the difference of 3000 gold in revenue over that time period. but the REAL difference you will find in rushing economic improvements is not going to be felt till later in the game. around the time of discovering democracy im often 2nd in power in the game. and my tech advances slowly because i spend little if anything on science after that. and caravans are only moderately lucrative they still are sloooow and there arent all that many of them yet. but be patient my friend. at about the time you discover automobile things will really start to take off. the freight moves faster. the road networks are getting better. railroads are speeding up your freight still more. your transports are fast and dont cause unhappiness. airports speed up freight movement yet more and your freight is bringing in serious money on arrival. something about building an oil freight and bringing it in to a rival city 2 turns later to receive 1600 gold. (unless you play chieftan level .... then you get 800 gold because your rival's best city is too small to generate much income).

as for the inconvenience of the early treaty violations. well i used to think so until i stopped defending my cities. city defense is expensive. if you dont defend them then you save the money on city walls too. when you lose the city you only lose one population because you dont have that catastrophic reduction in city size that accompanies destruction of units. you take it back a turn or 2 later with a diplomat for maybe 100 or 200 gold and get some freebie military units with it! heh ... i usually disband these units to rush build. another curious reason to not defend your cities. if you save the expense you can expand much faster. that means the fringes of your empire always tend to have tiny brand new cities on the frontiers. these are the ones that usually get captured and these are the same ones you can take back with a diplomat for 100 gold and the only improvement lost is a temple usually. matter of fact the rapid expansion of city count that accompanies a game without city defense means that you hardly miss the fringe cities that you do lose anyway.

rysingsun · Jul 24, 2002

cant help but post one more. i keep hearing the same complaint. "i try to do everything im told to do about spending all my cash on rush improvements to make a power democracy but with my science at 50 percent i only have 5 gold per turn to spend on rush improvements .. so it doesnt work". umm wait ... 50 percent science? how does that constitute "spending gold on rush improvements" ? in my games i typically spend ZERO on science after i get democracy period. caravans and freight are the only way i get advances. naturally this means i dont build libraries either. (tangent .. my vote for most useless wonder ... SETI) so what if i only get an advance every 8 turns (from my caravans). i dont care. who needs to be ahead in tech anyway? my civilization gets huge while my opponents merely have technology. i catch up later by virtue of the large size of my empire. and yes i spend 20 percent on luxuries. thats keeps everyone happy even on diety level.

Ayatollah So · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by starlifter
If there is such a thing as skill in Civ II SP, this is the $64,000 question. Long ago, I learned to fight/build in a democracy. Be patient. Think "George Bush". Learn to read the AI. Keep your forces mobile and small in a Democracy, and when you fight, hit hard with an exact plan, down to the unit, of every move. Take all the cities you can in one turn, and carefully plan exactly how the partisans will occur (if the AI has communism & gunpower). Make sure you don't come face to face till you city killing is done, cause the senate is gunna put a stop to the war when you do. At that time, you consolidate, build, and grow the conqured cities and begin baiting the AI... put a caravan in there and let the AI sneak attack it... then take some more cities.

Dang. I thought I knew how to play this game, but ... wow.

You're dead right on the face-to-face thing. I only recently discovered this trick. When making war, kill all the defenders of a city, poise a guy ready to move in, but don't move in. Kill all defenders at the next city. Etc. Now if buying a city, do that first before moving into any unoccupied city.

But what if you want to buy more than one city? Can you move a dip/spy directly off a transport onto a coastal city for the buy (without triggering that dreaded face-to-face meeting)?

Duke of Marlbrough · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by Ayatollah So
But what if you want to buy more than one city? Can you move a dip/spy directly off a transport onto a coastal city for the buy (without triggering that dreaded face-to-face meeting)?

Yes, you can use dips and spies from a ship to buy cities.

You're dead right on the face-to-face thing. I only recently discovered this trick. When making war, kill all the defenders of a city, poise a guy ready to move in, but don't move in. Kill all defenders at the next city. Etc. Now if buying a city, do that first before moving into any unoccupied city.

Click to expand...

You can also try Andu's Emissary's Ploy. This allows you to capture a city and not have the AI meet with you and force peace.

funxus · Jan 10, 2003

A few days ago I discovered that partisans wont trigger a meeting when they encounter an enemy unit. Not after a city is captured nor at the first contact.
Since partisans are as good defenders as riflemen, and also have better movement they are good to capture a city. In late game I usually end up stealth fighting all the cities, move in helicopters (which wont trigger meetings either) or paratroopers, and then make peace for a turn or two, but maybe I'm going to start using some more partisans. Well, I just felt it was worth mentioning.

pallypia · Jan 12, 2003

Wow, what incredible ammounts of knowlege....Im just getting to play on Deity nowadays, & follow alot of what Ive read anyhow, but there is definitely somehing in that trade & science thing....I usually expand, don't worry too much about tech after Democracy, then build spies when I can to complete the techs. Thanx guys for the tips...Ill see you in the GOTM when I figure that out! Later.

Power Democracy start? (long)

Chieftain

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

CFC Drunkard

Rider of Rohan

Ancient CFC Guardian

Rider of Rohan

Chieftain

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

Chieftain

King

King

King

the spoof'll set you free

The Quiet Moderator

Orange Cycloptic Blob

Emporer

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