Deity+3 classic succession game 1: "We who survived"

I really don't understand the reason for starting another wonder. Why should we tie up our production in one city for so long???? We can build caravans now and they are much cheaper to rush buy than Wonders and they provide much more flexibility for changing city production in an emergency situation. They also provide some flexibility for "moving" the wonder to a better location if our plans change later. It made sense to start one before we could build camels, but now I just don't get the reasoning.

Start another city on camels?
Start another wonder?

Hmmm... yes, building caravans instead also makes a lot of sense and may be a better idea. One reason for prebuilding wonders is that we can easily get into the situation where we cannot start a wonder because all wonders that our current techs allow have already been built so we cannot start a wonder and later switch to a different one. This is usually not a problem at regular deity but can easily happen at D+2 and D+3.

Originally posted by TheViking
Hmmm... yes, building caravans instead also makes a lot of sense and may be a better idea. One reason for prebuilding wonders is that we can easily get into the situation where we cannot start a wonder because all wonders that our current techs allow have already been built so we cannot start a wonder and later switch to a different one. This is usually not a problem at regular deity but can easily happen at D+2 and D+3.

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I thought about this, but then I wondered...if the wonders are all built, what would we be building anyway. We couldn't build a wonder until we got another wonder-tech anyway! God help us if we complete the (already-built) wonder, but don't come up with a new, available wonder to build.

Camels live forever (that sounds cool - maybe I'll copyright it), so whenever we do get a tech for a wonder we want (that hasn't been built), we can dump the camels. I'd hate to fill a wonder's production and not have anything to show for it! As I said before... prior to Trade it makes sense to start the wonder so we have a place to put our shields, but once we have trade, I don't think we need to do that anymore.

Well, reconstructive solved some problems but not all. I am able to play normally for now. However, I continue to have difficulties with my internet access -- mainly, it is way to slow for a DSL connection. (Three minutes to write a simple message?)

Just tell me when it's my turn to play.

OldnSlow is up right now, you can go after him to catch up on your missed turn.

I was working under the idea of starting another wonder in case the AI's take them all as well, but I can see the wisdom of preparing camels. It might be advantageous to have some dips around an AI or two as well if we need to steal a tech and then rush the wonder. Or does the tech stealing lower our standing with the AI? We're trying to stay spotless are we not?

Anyway, as far as Spain is concerned, I would still rather try to take an offensive posture with them when we feel we have the unit advantage. The rate we're going, we may be able to field a crusader or two since we're beelining to Monotheism - though it might still be better to go with ellies before they get feudalism. We're going to have to spend resources on units in that region in case if the Spanish get all cranky, so why not go with more offensive units than defensive?. It might be best to dictate where and when the battles take place the best we can.

When do restarts stop happening? Would it be worth our while to try to keep them with one city so we won't have another civ to track down later?

Stealing techs is considered an act of war.

I am extremely leery of any strategy that slows our progress towards Monotheism and Michaelangelo. That (plus republic) was the turning point in our last game and I think it could be in this as well. Maybe once we get that, some crusaders would make sense, but it just seems too risky to do anything before then. If they get polytheism, they'll start taking our cities at will. If they get feudalism, we have almost no chance to beat vet pikemen. If they get/have masonry, it won't take long until we are facing city walls. By the time we ramp up our military, our window will probably already be gone. We got a nice early boost from those extra cities, but it is evaporating too quickly. We are working at half-speed because of all our elvi, while the AI is working with something like half-sized production requirements - that's a 4x production disadvantage. Not the kind of odds I usually look for. Give it a few turns and we will probably be close to pathetic again, then they won't be so cranky and we can even start begging again.

Restarts continue until somewhere around either 1500 AD or possibly 1750, although if you kill the same color civ 3 times I think they stop showing up as well.

On second thought...

after Old'n'Slow is done, we have Andu catching up with his first go around, followed by Duke, then it's Andu's 2nd round. I'm almost curious what those 30 turns could produce...

...Nah, I'm still too meek.

I'll attach the zip now & write up a short log tomorrow.

Two new cities to talk about -- one is ours & the other is Spain's.

Also ---- Barbs......

Originally posted by Andu Indorin
Just tell me when it's my turn to play.

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PM and e-mail reminder sent.

1500BC a couple of tweaks -- two settlers in process to camels in process; one settler in process to a dip (Satsuma)

1450 (1) -- move stuff -- Nag, Iz, Na are all in disorder, but growing. Spain, our uncooperative ally wants to talk -- uh, Ok. They want monarchy (hmm I guess that’s ok) -- but wait -- before you go, how about a gift? We collect 50 coins. We end our discussion with them still uncooperative.

1400 (2) -- Horse tips a hut in the great northwest and is surrounded by barb horsemen (goodbye vet None horse (sniff) -- reach out & take one with us. Nara builds a settler & blows up.

1350 (3) -- Nara grows back to size two (and Elvis is hired.) Just noticed that Nagoya and Izumo are also at size two -- hire more elvi accordingly. Hmmmm playing with the warrior in Nara makes me wonder -- without the warrior, the city shows one happy & one elvis; with the warrior, it is one content & one Elvis. I’m getting the thought that the famous Hanging Garden/double unhappy phenom is simply a double unhappy phenom -- that a happy face (due to HG or Elvis) gets downgraded with a warrior. Or maybe it is simple a garrison phenom -- the garrison causes the first face to be content, regardless of its previous status. If so then HG, although nice, may not be as valuable as previously thought -- we put Elvis everywhere and the garrisons are free to move about the country.

Also buy some Satsuma shields toward a dip. (America starts Colossus.)

1300 (4) -- (See American boat offshore in the southwest.)

1250 (5) -- Found Yokohama on the C1 spot (shown elsewhere) after roading a shielded grass space for he citizen.

1200 (6) -- move (the northwest barbs are now fewer in number, but there may still be one or two lurking in the darkness.)

1150 (7) -- Satsuma produces a dip; Osaka makes a camel (dye) -- there is a Spanish settler north of Madrid & one east of Izumo.

1100 (8) -- Discover Polytheism; with a choice of Literacy or Wheel, we choose Lit. (don’t switch production yet.) Hmmm notice that Edo is still size one, and only gets small production becase the citizen is entertaining -- so we put him to work & look forward to the disruption & greater growth.

Nara’s settler has been roading -- moving toward the primo C2 spot…only to discover that Toledo (size 2!) is already there. Don’t know what is more surprising -- having a city there or having the ai actually place a city well. Cash in Satsuma’s dip for an embassy with Spain. They have no extra techs that, 79 coins, and the four cities now known (and at least one settler out & about.)

1050 (9) (Americans start the Pyramids) Nag is now size two -- Elvis is hired in yet another location.

1000 (10) Paris builds the Pyramids (I don’t recall any message as to what the American or Indian responses were -- so I’m assuming that they are still working one or two wonders.)

Notes -- we have a settler due east of Toledo heading for the C3 location for another city and another roading near Nag. We have a dye caravan (from Osaka) in Kyoto & about 100 shields towards a wonder (currently Colossus) with 30 shields towards a camel in Kagoshima. We also have between 100 & 150 coins in the treasury. With an American boat spotted to the SW, new trading opportunities exist -- but those thoughts are now left for the next player.

Originally posted by Old n Slow
1350 (3) -- Nara grows back to size two (and Elvis is hired.) Just noticed that Nagoya and Izumo are also at size two -- hire more elvi accordingly. Hmmmm playing with the warrior in Nara makes me wonder -- without the warrior, the city shows one happy & one elvis; with the warrior, it is one content & one Elvis. I’m getting the thought that the famous Hanging Garden/double unhappy phenom is simply a double unhappy phenom -- that a happy face (due to HG or Elvis) gets downgraded with a warrior. Or maybe it is simple a garrison phenom -- the garrison causes the first face to be content, regardless of its previous status. If so then HG, although nice, may not be as valuable as previously thought -- we put Elvis everywhere and the garrisons are free to move about the country.

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This is standard Double-unhappy behavior. The Double-unhappy is made instantly happy (rather than content) by either HG or an elvis (or any other means of getting 2 luxury cups). Since we are still in monarchy, having a garrison in the city "upgrades" the double-unhappy citizen to just unhappy, but then the HG/Elvis/Luxuries now only move the happiness up one level from unhappy to content. At size 2 this is not really a problem (unless we are about to retire and want a higher score ) but if a city is about to go to size 3, we will need to remove its garrison so that the double-unhappy trick can give us one happy citizen to go with one mad, and one content (elvis) citizen and stay out of disorder while 2 citizens are working.

Some miscellaneous issues:

I was afraid the Spanish would found a city near C2 and they did .

We should completely block the Spanish from moving units west by adding a warrior west of Edo.

Nara is building horsemen but should IMO switch to an elepant and maybe IRB one. Maybe Satsuma should do so as well. The Spanish are extremely primitive so we might not even require veteran elephants to destroy them if we do so quickly. Two or three elephants should be able to cause them lots of trouble.

Maybe two of our cities (Kagoshima and Nagasaki maybe) should build a trireme and dip ASAP to see if we can meet someone and get pottery.

IMO Nagoya should build settlers rather than caravans - it's in a great area for cities and we should found some cities SW/S/SE of Nagoya before an AI civ establishes a colony there.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
PM and e-mail reminder sent.

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Any way to tell if Andu has recieved these notes? (If he can't get online easily, can he get PMs or Emails???) Do you have message tracking on the PM? Just curious.

PM has not been read yet.

Last time on-line Dec 8th.

I guess I'll play my round this weekend if he isn't able to check in by then.

Indians start Hanging Gardens.
Empty American Trireme visits Izumo

975 BC (1) – Not Much happens


950 BC (2) – Not Much happens


Celts begin Colossus

925 BC (3) – Not Much happens

Empty Indians Trireme shows up just North of Yokohama.

900 BC (4) – 4 Elephants built. Visit Spanish, they demand Polytheism, refused, they end the Alliance. Troops advance.


875 BC (5) – Visit Spanish, demand tribute, they remove troops.


Spanish Develop Masonry

850 BC (6) – Visit Spanish, they ask to exchange knowledge; Masonry for Polytheism. We offer Currency as an Alternative. Done. We demand tribute, they declare war. Elephants attack. Toledo Destroyed. Other attacks kill one defending Phalanx.

Spanish Horseman attacks and kills Elephant/Warrior stack that destroyed Toledo. Nara is now undefended.

825 BC (7) – Cordoba destroyed. Many Spanish units disappear from the map. Including the Horseman near Nara. Spanish horseman killed in the field by our horseman.


French start Hanging Gardens.
Warrior leading the way for Elephants towards Seville killed by Horseman.

800 BC (8) – Madrid Elephant almost dies in latest attack. He is relying on a Settler for protection from counterattack.


775 BC (9) – Kagoshima build Caravan; Silver (demanded in Kyoto if we want). Attacks continue. Seville emptied, at size 1. Madrid Elephant attacks to find a warrior defending the city, perhaps the city is almost empty now? Hut up North gives us Mysticism (not that it helps our Temples be any more effective).


Indians have nearly completed Hanging Gardens. (twice)

750 BC (10) – Seville left empty and grows to size 2. We occupy it. 54 gold plundered. Madrid Elephant rests since it doesn’t show any health left and Seville Elephants are closing in on Madrid.


Spanish Horseman attacks from Madrid and almost kills Defending Settler/Elephant stack. Phalanx moves into Madrid
Indians have nearly completed Hanging Gardens. (again)
Delhi Builds Hanging Gardens. French abandon Hanging Gardens. Indians change to Lighthouse.

725 BC (11) – Osaka builds Caravan – Gems. Two Seville side Elephants attack Madrid. Madrid destroyed. Spanish Destroyed. Barbarians destroy Spanish. ? Save Game.



We are alone on our continent now (that we know of) but a key wonder has slipped by us. I had no idea what to do with the Settler near Nagasaki, so I just connected the roads and started to irrigate a square for Kyoto. . .? The Settler meant for C3 was sent to Yokohama when the Alliance ended, which worked out, as he provided cover for the Madrid Elephant. He is currently irrigating (might of well had him doing something while he standing there) and should be done with it next turn. I also didn't have much of a plan for the cities as a whole, so their production may need to be moved around a bit.

What next?

Game

New system is up and running!!! (after last Monday's death throes on that previous system).

I am ready to play!

How you guys pull off offensives like that, I will probably never know. Amazing! I guess too many OCC games have made me a complete wuss in the early going.

Should Andu play twenty turns since he missed his go 'round the first time and his second term is here now?

Most excellent set of turns, Duke! Excellent clinic on taking advantage of unit superiority.

Alone on the continent now, but I doubt that will last with the trireme visits we've been seeing. Soon enough they'll have something in them!

At this point, an off-continent alliance would be the top priority in my mind. Get a few triremes to run around with a dip or two in them if possible. Perhaps even find some extra huts hanging about.

As far as expansion, should we 'fill in' our settled area now? I'm worried that we may see a huge uprising soon (when does Jayne play next? )

Looks like the D+3 wonder cascade has begun. I'm thinking we may see one of those deals where they announce the wonder and almost finish it on the same turn. Perhaps we should hold Kyoto until we're sure we have Monotheism and enough caravans to finish Mike's Chapel in the same turn before we designate it for anything else?

I'm sure Andu will put us in the right direction.

My biggest concern was ZOC. I didn't want to have to fight them in the fields, I wanted to chew down the cities. Luckily we had enough support units around to provide different angles for moving troops and to provide cover.

I nearly died when the Horseman killed the Elephant/Warrior stack because I figured that would be their 'weak' side. The hope was to run through Toledo (ideally capture it, but that didn't work) and have that Elephant join the one to attack Madrid. That way, if the rest of the attack failed, but Madrid was taken out it would hopefully slow them down enough to be friendly for awhile/try to attack again later.

I didn't even realize until now that Nara supported the Settler being used near Madrid. If that Horseman had taken the city this would have been a very different result.

I think our main focus should be on Philosophy, Monotheism, and The Republic. If we can get to a Republic with Mikes, we may actually start to be able to have some partially productive cities.

After we finish off Literacy, hopefully we'll have a choice of Philosophy and/or Republic (I guess Mysticism helped in that regard at least) and go from there. Save the caravans/Colossus production for Mikes (we already have about 350 shields worth). Extra caravans for MPE would be an added bonus and probabaly be of great benefit in finding other Civs to trade/Ally with (I just re-realized that you can't check your power rating without having contact with any other Civs).