'Cause I'm the Taxman

Silu said:

0. Stop building military
1. Trade Priesthood from SB (?), from someone anyway
2. Start on some double Temples in cities with food and double religion
3. Settle at least 1 more island city, copper&sheep
4. Keep kissing Sury's ass

That sound about right?

BTW, what is an oppodum?

EDIT: How long should the TS be? 10 turns or until something dramatic happens?

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Yes, i think 10 turns at this point. Feel free to add/remove 1-2 turns if it makes for a natural stopping point. Pause if something dramatic happens.

Plan sounds fine. Start running prophets in Athens after the temples (at least if we don't get HR).
I'm hoping Stalin will gift techs to Pericles -- keep an eye out for this.
Keep scouting the land -- the more we know the better.

Silu said:

BTW, what's people's opinion on when to adopt a religion? It would give some happy and quicker Friendly with Sury and none of the Hindus are very zealous, but on the other hand all negative diplo hurts and we're not in such a hurry to get the Friendly while our WFYABTA holds and we should get Pleased soon with Mono. Would also disable the pretty important border culture of Theba that's holding our metal.

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Yes, I don't think it's time yet (unless he requests it). It shouldn't take too long to get him to friendly with civic+religion combined so starting it later is ok IMO.

2 turns in, SB got Currency and is selling Mono for 150g (among other things). I'm leaning towards taking the trade since I'm pretty sure it shouldn't trigger WE -1. He's 4/7 in score though and I wouldn't trade if it counts towards WFYABTA but I'm not sure. I decided to ask since WFYABTA trades are so huge in the variant.

So, the question: can we safely (WFYABTA-wise) trade with SB if he's 4/7 in score and we are 5/7? I have understood from the discussion that trades among the bottom half don't count but what if the pivot position is involved?

Trades amongst the lower half does count to the total overall WFYABTA, but as long as both civs are in the lower half there is no WFYABTA. You can still trade with the lower half despite having reached their threshold. [Correct me if I'm wrong. ]

As these tech trade opportunities keep coming in -- remember that we can broker as much as we want with the techs. This is even more efficient than usual. Maybe we can trade for mathematics with someone with mono+other techs? I seem to remember us having 2 techs on Kublai.

I'd probably take the trade -- but it's difficult to say for sure when blindfolded.

all counts but w/ the bottom half (both parties must be there) the check is not performed.

Okay, that makes sense. I'll take the Mono trade and continue, as for other techs there're no immediate brokering opportunities and buying them would probably trigger WE hate from Stalin in the first place so I'll pass on them for now. Detailed report coming when I finish.

since you pay w/ gold there is no leftover for the AI, the worst enemy should not be triggered.

bestsss said:

since you pay w/ gold there is no leftover for the AI, the worst enemy should not be triggered.

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What, you mean buying techs with gold never gives WE hate? This is news to me and certainly makes my turnset suboptimal I thought the WE hate value of a trade is simply what your side of the deal is, divided by three compared to gifting.

>>What, you mean buying techs with gold never gives WE hate?
I already said so.

bestsss said:

^
there you go. Since Silu can read the code I leave it as well.
....
Buying techs w/ gold will never trigger worst enemy as long as you don't overpay.

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If you have noticed if you make the AI give money to you but not the full amount listed the WE is not triggered, same if you fit some gold.
It's the fairest of deals (according to the AI's standard), so leftover value equals zero which wont do anything vs the enemies.

>>I thought the WE hate value of a trade is simply what your side of the deal is, divided by three compared to gifting.
Actually it's the difference for the 'enemy', since the AI never trades w/ negative difference for itself, I call it 'leftover'.
---
I think the 1st part is not gifting but 'peace' deals. Gifting is still trade value but w/ zero participation of the AI.

100AD-350AD, Celts take on preaching and sailing

T119:

Trade Medi<->Priesthood from SB, doesn't trigger -1WE as expected



Change Vienne from Gallic -> Settler
Change Athens from WB (no urgent fish to catch) -> Buddhist Temple (->Jewish Temple -> WB)
Change Tolosa from Gallic -> Opossum (I have bad dagger experiences about bordering "daddy sunshine" as he is lovingly sometimes called here )
Change Verlamion from Monument -> Lighthouse (has religion spread)
Whip an Opossum in Bibracte, stagnating for a turn to get non-angry overflow into Settler

Wasn't much discussion about the GM, but I guess settling him in Athens was a no-brainer here anyway.

T120:

Joao founds a new city, shocker. Up to 13 now.
Sury captures Turfan, KK is seriously on the ropes.

Another Stalin Galley seems to be on its way to the glorious South, along with one of Pericles'. Getting crowded down there. I'd whip the Vienne Settler but there's fresh anger.



I Notice a Hindu Missionary going eastwards. The bastard is selective about his apostles.

Despite I put Bibracte on stagnate (shrinkage actually), it grew because the whipping lowered the growth threshold (food reserves were near-maxed), putting it in the red. Now this is why I don't generally micromanage this much, I seem to fail at it... Oh well, no biggie.


T121:

SB gets Currency! Mono: 150g ; Math: 300g ; Alpha: 365g. After a pause to consult the gods, Brennus decides to take the Mono trade. This does not end up giving WE hate. OR is adopted - costs an extra 4gpt and gives the option to produce missionaries. Sury is bumped to Pleased. Only things to beg are Math and Alpha so I don't beg anything for now. Do begging-induced gifts give WE hate? This game is getting pretty technical...

KK captures Beshbalik back. Seems the old fatty isn't quite down yet.
Christianity FIDL (Joao)

Sury sending yet another Galley down. I count 5 currently heading there...

Whip Buddhist Temple in Athens (1pop sadly but still ok with the Temple happiness)
Change Sparta from Gallic -> Jewish Missionary (to get a 2nd religion to Vienne)

T122:
Sury, in turn, captures Turfan.



Starting on building a road from capital area to Greek area that doesn't go through Greece in case Stalin is up to funny business.

T123:

Stalin goes weehorn, eep. Either us, Sury or SB (where does SB live anyway?), with me and Sury Cautious land targets and SB Annoyed somewhere. Time to start reinforcing the border in any case. Cannot totally disregard Pericles either since he has the unpillageable Iron Theba is in a very crappy place to defend and has our only metal so far. Tolosa is a steadfast fortress though.

Found another conquest of Sury's, Ning-Hsia.



Whip Monument in Camulodonum

T124:

Start on military in various cities.

Athens begins grinding a GP with 2 Priests.

We get lights on with Pericles, he's going for Currency next, yay.

T125:

Joao built SoZ

SB got Monarchy and is willing to trade it. Didn't trade yet since there aren't any extreme happy issues and Joao diplo isn't that urgent.

T126:

Found SBs borders, east of Sury and south of Joao.

Yaroslavl popped borders starting to grind on Tolosa's culture.

SB built ToA.

T127:

Joao goes weehorn. At least this shouldn't be us In any case wars don't help us much either way.

Sury and Joao get Currency. Joao is the first one who is willing to trade with us, has Currency and isn't anybody's worst enemy. I trade 295g for Mathematics from Joao and sell Meditation to Sury for 80g.




Built an Axe in Athens without realizing there's no Barracks there. Whoops.

Whip Buddhist Temple in Vienne, synchronously spread Judaism and started on Jewish Temple o/

T128:

Buy Currency from Sury for 540g. Gpt output jumps from 14 to 35 (went down to 14 from building troops and working less coast mainly). No WE hate so I guess buying techs with gold is WE hate free, kinda wish I had realized that about 2 hours ago

I also trade Ivory to Sury for 9gpt and Dye. We might want to cancel that trade in case it gives penalties with Joao or if Sury gets too cocky with Ballista Jumbos. For now, it was too juicy to pass up. Also updated our 2gpt<->Clam deal with Stalin up to 5gpt.

Whip Lighthouse in Verlamion, that's the last hammers we see in a while there without further whips.

T129:

Stalin spreads Hinduism to Tolosa! Too bad we are now probably stuck with the Buddhism (or NSR) plan. We have 4 religions now (of which we have 3 holy cities) so going Culture is definitely an option. Goes hand in hand with being technologically backwards and using 0% slider at least

Placeholder Opossum being built in Vienne, not sure what to build there.
Placeholder in Verlamion as well (the western no-hammer zone).

So, prospects atm:

a) 2 Settlers on the waters trying to decide where to go
b) Athens and Vienne both grinding 2 Priests. Should probably up at least one of those to 3 (or even 4) Temples. In retrospect should probably be spreading Confu from Theba instead of an Opossum.
c) Pretty hefty military costs, there are various builds that we might want to cancel, in addition to some troops that could be disbanded as well (Chariots, Warriors)

Russian border (no idea where that catapult is headed) and tech:




Issues:

1. What to trade, and with whom? Plenty of WE crap going on messing things up. I was probably much too conservative with trades but it doesn't matter that much since we can catch up fast with our gold reserves (though somewhat diminished now). Should probably buy CoL or Monarchy from Pericles right away with the help of a brokered Currency at least.
2. What's Stalin up to and what can we do about it? If he declares on Sury I guess we should join Sury's war when he asks. Part of me wants him to declare on us so we can take Corinth Anyhow, there's no significant troop buildup on the Russian border.
3. What to do with the GG? I almost settled it in Bibracte for 2promo defenders but didn't (have produced 2 units that would have got the XP)
4. Where to settle the 2 guys I have floating in the waters? There are no obvious spots, though I think one should grab the southern Copper to ensure our metal supply.
5. With surprise Hindu spread, that option opened itself to us. Probably doesn't affect much but what do you think?
6. Gergovia still without a garrison, maybe that can be their thing!


Let me know how to improve my reporting/playing, this is both the first SG I play and the first game where I (try to) micromanage . Normally I'm one of those players who plays Standard games in 2-3 hours and on Immortal since I can't be bothered to micro whole games of Deity so much.

Nice Silu -- the report is excellent!

Won't address everything right away, but we're blessed with a CoL trade (Pericles) -- we need to take this one immediately! We should also grab monarchy for happiness and grow our best cities far into the double-digits.

We can trade CoL+some gold or CoL+monarchy if possible (boost relations) to Suryavarman the turn after for calendar.

I'd stick with Buddhism and steamroller Stalin. With this variant (and ivory) medieval wars are good so we are free to go to war. We should probably adopt Buddhism now and get markets with the help of OR and slavery.
Once we have a friendly Suryavarman with construction available it's -time.

Opened the save and there is some weed, but will address that later.

Nice round Silu... but some comments in micro for sake of discussion

-Athen: there is no point in working a cottage on sugar while you can work a clam, no happy cap excuse here. It's always best to work highest yields tile. build a settelr/worker when at happy cap, or whip, or hire other specialists, or trade for more luxury, or whatever you want, but don't work suboptimal tiles

- island cities: always granary first, before lighthouse! There is a thread in the startegy forum with numbers showing it's best.

-whip: citizen on 1 food, 1 hammer tile? Whip the bugger! Overflow in granary.

-rax is better than dun (the famous oppodum ), we aren't under siege. In the same mood, archers are useless to us currently (will change when we have HR).

-work max food to reach happy cap (Tolosa and Vienne micro is bad)

-cottages: don't overbuild them... I know Sparta one was built by Ungy, but imo this one shouldn't be. Sparta is so low on food it is not funny. Growth power matters more than a mere cottage. I don't want to look for a cottage hater mischief, but there is no point building one in a city that can't run a lot (even then, the city needs to be an early one). You won't be able to justify the hammer investissement in commerce enhancing buildings, and it just nerfs the city production. This is without saying that a coast tile is better the first ten turns, and equal the 20 after...

Macro:
-we should be in buddhism already as Stalin is preparing for war already.
-agree with general plan of Rusten: -> preparing for russians, targeting a phantapult war.
-GG would be more usefull in Tolosa imo, better long term production, and closer to opponents. A medic is an usefull option as well for first GG.

Other remark: Sury is growing fast

I repeat, this is not a rant or something, just for sake of discussion

edit: going with pair of galleys is also good, more so when you are carrying settlers

Lurker:

Sury is doing a remarkable job on KK without catapults Perhaps the lack of siege is making him suicide more troops resulting in faster city conquests?

You guys also might want HBR to deal with Russian catapults.

>>You guys also might want HBR to deal with Russian catapults.
You can't build jumbos w/o to begin with
I bet KK lacks metal... so he was building chariots for most of the part. Hence the quick advance. Stupid AIs

Another couple of comments:

I do think techs gained though begs count toward WE hate and WFYABTA...
I don't like disbanding units (mentionned in the report), I 'd rather use obseletes fro MP in the safest cities, and redistribute the rest than deleting precious hammers.

Have we scouted Stalin's core for an SOD? The chariot NW of Yaro could move to PH b/w StPete and Moscow this turn to check it out.

Rusten said:

Won't address everything right away, but we're blessed with a CoL trade (Pericles) -- we need to take this one immediately! We should also grab monarchy for happiness and grow our best cities far into the double-digits.

We can trade CoL+some gold or CoL+monarchy if possible (boost relations) to Suryavarman the turn after for calendar.

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Doesn't look like we can get both COL and Monarchy right now. Pericles wants Curr+245g for COL. I'd take it, ofc. We probably won't have enough cash to trade for Calendar for a few turns. What would Sury be teching atm? Probably either COL or Mon, right?

Some counterdiscussion

RRRaskolnikov said:

-Athen: there is no point in working a cottage on sugar while you can work a clam, no happy cap excuse here. It's always best to work highest yields tile. build a settelr/worker when at happy cap, or whip, or hire other specialists, or trade for more luxury, or whatever you want, but don't work suboptimal tiles

Click to expand...

Well there was a happy cap excuse (the turn before IIRC) and I couldn't figure out where to dump it (didn't need settler/worker IMO, no spec slots, stacked whip anger etc) so then it's best to avoid growing into red to keep lower maintenance if there's no immediate prospects to highen the cap (turns out there was, duh). I forgot about it when I made the Ivory<->Dye trade so that's why it was left.

RRRaskolnikov said:

- island cities: always granary first, before lighthouse! There is a thread in the startegy forum with numbers showing it's best.

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That's interesting. I would have thought if one had to choose just one building then the Lighthouse would be better. But if someone has done the math I'll go with that from now on.

RRRaskolnikov said:

-rax is better than dun (the famous oppodum ), we aren't under siege. In the same mood, archers are useless to us currently (will change when we have HR).

Click to expand...

Well, Theba holds our only metal source currently and doesn't have an emergency population buffer to whip a couple times in a row so I reasoned it's better to hold Stalin's potential advance for ~5 more turns rather than get 1-2 more defenders (I know the metal might be pillaged anyway). The Archers also are an "emergency" move to some extent. I was a bit too scared about Stalin invading and Dun Archers are on par with PRO ones for hill cities. I don't like defensive wars when the empire is so spread out.

A lot of my military decisions seem a bit funky since now we're only talking about offensive warfare. When I was playing I was only thinking about defense pretty much.

RRRaskolnikov said:

-cottages: don't overbuild them... I know Sparta one was built by Ungy, but imo this one shouldn't be. Sparta is so low on food it is not funny. Growth power matters more than a mere cottage. I don't want to look for a cottage hater mischief, but there is no point building one in a city that can't run a lot (even then, the city needs to be an early one). You won't be able to justify the hammer investissement in commerce enhancing buildings, and it just nerfs the city production. This is without saying that a coast tile is better the first ten turns, and equal the 20 after...

Click to expand...

Well if you count the turns it takes towards Civil Service, it might well be worth it. IIRC there's no way to wiggle more food there atm so coast/grass cottage are the best "growth" tiles. I'm the first to admit I'll build any cottage I can though

Also in a short while Sparta won't be short on food

RRRaskolnikov said:

Macro:
-we should be in buddhism already as Stalin is preparing for war already.
-agree with general plan of Rusten: -> preparing for russians, targeting a phantapult war.
-GG would be more usefull in Tolosa imo, better long term production, and closer to opponents. A medic is an usefull option as well for first GG.

Click to expand...

If we go on the offensive, esp with phants, then a M3 IMO. Personally I almost always go supermedic first if thinking about an offensive war next and settle if the next war is gonna be defensive.

RRRaskolnikov said:

edit: going with pair of galleys is also good, more so when you are carrying settlers

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I guess. I didn't see a barb galley in the whole set because there're tons of AI galleys and culture everywhere.

^^ the galley with the settler is at 1.8 health, this is what made me thought it was attacked...

about cottages: point is also that you don't have infinte worker turns, those not spent in not so usefull cottages can be elsewhere.

I am still unsure about the GG, CR2 catapults are good, and will be needed against LBs.

About Athen: we do need more settlers! with GLH, we can't rex enough anyway... whip a settler overflowing in another one waiting for the happiness to ware off or whatever... but seriously clams are best.

I guess you have a point about the dun in iron city, it might come in handy. Depending on the hammers invested, it could be nice to leave it for a later 2 pop whip (like Ungy did in Bibracte).

I'll try to link a relevant thread about granary vs lighthouse ultimate fight of death, the revenge.

Ras

RRRaskolnikov said:

^^ the galley with the settler is at 1.8 health, this is what made me thought it was attacked...

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It was 1.5 health when I started the set... had no time to sit around with this archipelago. Since then the islands and the water have become much more crowded. I didn't take any chances when moving around though.

Worker micro prioritizing and optimizing build orders are the things I usually pay least attention to so no wonder that they leave something to be desired yet.

I didn't found the link I was looking for

still:

I assume we'll slave both a lighthouse and a granary in the city. Let's look at this scenario: a city starts size 1, grows to size 4 then whips one building. Back to size 2 without food in the bar, it grows again to size 4 and whips the other building. Finally it grows again to size 4 for further whipping fun

• In normal speed, comparaison of both possible scenarios (granary -> lighthouse, lighthouse -> granary):
  
  
• food to grow from 1 to 4: 22+24+26 =72
  
• granary first:
  grow from 2 to 4: 24+14 =38 - - grow from 2 to 4 after gra -> lighthouse: 11+14=25
  
• lighthouse first:
  grow from 2 to 4: 24+26 =50 - - grow from 2 to 4 after lighthouse -> granary: 24+14 = 38
  
  
• Sum up:
  granary -> lighthouse: 72+38+25= 135 food used
  lighthouse -> granary: 72+50+38= 160 food used.

cqfd