The Criminal Koresh

VoodooAce

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Just saw David Koresh's lawyer on the tube sayint that it didnt' matter who shot first at Waco because the Branch Davidians were just defending their home.

So, according to this guy, if I see the law roll up to the curb in front of my house, I can bust out my weapons and shoot them. You know, to defend my house and family. Just because I'm committing crimes doesn't mean they have the right to come and knock on MY door.

Nice.

I'll tell you what I think is that this guy was no better than the lowest-life gang banger. And if the cops go to a house in Compton or Watts to collect some weapons they've had a tip on, I don't know about you, but I don't sympathize with them when they start sniping cops.
 
It's hard to give an opinion whitout knowing exactly what are the facts... but if I really understood the situation, and if laws in USA resemble anything the ones in Brazil, he might have a case.

I mean, if I stay in my window with a loaded gun, and shoot anything that I subjectvely consider a threat, or anyone that approaches my house that I want away, than I am wrong.

However, if someone approach my house with a shotgun, screaming that he'll blow my brains out, than I don't need to wait he open fire to defend myself.

So, i wouldn't discart it instantly as absurd... i'd have to see what happened...
 
Where to start. What happened here nine years ago is a complex question. Vernon Howell aka David Koresh was the leader and minister of a splinter group of the 7th Day Adventists called the Branch Davidians (BD). The group had split off, or been expelled, from the main line of the 7DA quite a few years before. During the 1970s and 1980s Howell became ascendant in the internal leadership struggle, which amoung other things gave rise to a trial for attempted murder. Howell/Koresh was released after a hung jury, when the County Attorney decided not to retry the case.

I know the foreman of the jury rather well. He is a certified right wing law and order type. He was convinced that the charges were fabricated and that there should never have been a trial in the first place. The Jury was hung 10 to aquit and 2 to convict. If all these details are messy, suffice to say that many of the local authorities disliked him. Among them were Child Protective Services (CPS) and various educational bodies, who did not think that the group's child rearing practices were appropriate.

Suffice to say that there was never any legal claim against him that stuck. Among his followers was a Harvard lawyer. Howell/Koresh proved quite agile in court. One problem CPS had with proving abuse, in many cases, is the fact that the children's parents were also members of the group and refused to file charges. Another problem was presence in the group of certified teachers and other experts who could refute the state in court. Even now it is unclear whether the groups practices were unusual or criminal. It depends on who is speaking. Many outside people feel that the group amounted to a cult and that its members were brain washed. Others, and I include the jury foreman, think that the legitimate social and religious practices of a seperatist group were being persecuted.

In any event, during the tenure of Howell/Koresh (I am unclear on when he chose to change the name) the membership increased significantly. Followers were encouraged to move into "Mount Carmel" which is the BD name for its enclave or "compound" to use the media term. The stucture, which everyone remembers fro the fire, was constructed and expanded several times. In addition to the people living in the enclave, there were a number of others who lived outside and returned fr worship. This group, after a legal battle over the title to the land, have constructed and attend a church on the site. Among others was a number of retired and/or invalid people in a nursing home about 10 miles away.

The nursing home is where I met him the one time I did. Koresh was setting up the weekly service, which acording to their doctrine was on Saturday. My impression wa that he was an unwashed hippy wannabe. His hair was dirty and his shower was to many hours back. The fact that he was setting up a guitar service for a bunch of 80 year olds struck me as funny. There was nothing funny about the devotion of his people to "The Reverend." In truth, though I did not see it, he was quite charming when he wanted to be and, I am told, an absolutely spell binding speaker.

About a year later, in the spring of 1993, the local paper began to run a many part story on Koresh and the Branch Davidians. The first installment ran on Saturday. "The Sinfull Messiah" was the banner headline on the front page. Early the next morning the aborted raid was attempted.

Several things need to be remembered about the raid. First, it was clearly unnecessary. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms had obtained a search warrant. Had they walked up to the door, they would most likely have been admitted. Based on the previous history of Koresh dealing with the law, if they had contacted his attorney and requested that he come down for questioning, he would have complied. Instead, BATF decided to raid in large force. The intent was to do a drug style, quick strike raid and quickly subdue the occupants of the building. It did not work.

The reasons for the collapse of the raid are numerous. First, it is clear that the people in the compound knew something was coming, though the details may have been less clear. The timing of the newspaper story is certainly suspicious.

What is known is that the BD was on the phone to police, claiming that armed people were trying to break into the house. This is no less than the truth. It is NOT clear that the warrant was ever served, or if proper identification was ever given. So what we have is an alerted residence fearing and receiving an attack by armed people in the middle of the night. A spark was struck and the pile of powder exploded.

The BATF agents forced the front door and attempted to force other entries. Notably, a second story window was attempted, and repeled by gunfire from within, all caught on video. Once the first shot was fired, gunfire erupted all over the structure. At least one heavy rifle was used by the occupants. Reports of machine gun fire have been convincingly disproven. Koresh had a reputation as a gun afficionado. There were a large number of firearms available, and it appears many or must were used. The supposed purpose of the raid was to find automatic weapons. There were none.

Many of the criticisms of BATF in the aftermath rested on the poor preparation for the raid. While it was designed as a quick hitting, dont give them a chance to react raid, the personnel were clearly not prepared for a serious fight. At least one overweight AFT agent is seen clearly in the videos, running around screaming. The obvious inference is that the agent was being given a chance for an "easy" operations notation is her records. In the event of a firefight, she turned out to be worse than useless.

Another major complaint was the lax security, which allowed advance notice of the raid to get to the media. One theory is that the Bureau was expecting to be desolved and absorbed into Justice and FBI. The supposed intent was to get a high profile arrest, in spectacular style, with integrated media coverage to justify continued funding. While there is a certain ring of validity to this theory, it remains unproven.

One of the many outcomes of the incident is that BATF had its house thoroughly cleaned. In the recent sniper case BATF was lead agency, and appears to have done stellar work.

Once the firefight died down, the BATF agents pulled back and seige began. Since there were Federal agents dead, BATF and later FBI had little choice but to press as hard as possible. When push came to shove, Koresh would not come out. It is clear from the cases that followed, that he was entirely correct in thinking that he would receive no mercy from the courts. Those that did survive, received 20 year and longer sentances.

The end came very much as the seige in Moscow. The building was attacked with tear gas and the fires started. I am personally satisfied that the people inside set the fires to destroy the building. Many then killed themselves with handguns, to save themselves from the fire. In allthe years and much litigation, nothing else has ever been shown.

In many ways this whole situation is a microcosm of persecuted minorities worldwide and throughout history. Many people believe that the Branch Davidians were chosen because they were a strange religious group, which offended various public oversight groups. Certainly it was not a place I would wish my children to join. Their beliefs, among them that all girls age 14 and older were reserved for the first use of the Elder, in this case Koresh, is offensive to most. Koresh had as many as 150 children by dozens of women. Some consider it illegal.

Some, myself included, believe that the BD were chosen as an example. A government agency, which had at heart "turf" instead of justice, decided to show them as specimens of the worst of society. It has a distinct Nazi flavor to it. The fact that entire affair happened under President Clinton's watch cannot be overlooked. The parties promoting the raid were politically alligned with the Clinton Administration. I think it is no coincidence that the go ahead came soon after he came into office and not under President Bush.

This is getting too long. i hope this answers some of the questions.

J
 
Outstanding rendition of what happened. :goodjob:

The amusing thing about the coverup that came out is that "it" (The raid) became an instant "Non-Issue". Nobody talks about it anymore, even though so many Americans died.

The media telling the story it wants to it seems.
 
Wow... this is clearly FAR more complicated than what I first imagined by the original post.
 
Well, the Feds certainly used poor tactics during the siege. There was a study (John Danforth's ''Final Report to the Deputy Attorney General'') and a rebuttal (Timothy Lynch's "No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident"), so there is still plenty of controversy if you're looking for it.
***
I agree it is a non-issue in mainstream media, though, and I'd venture to say that's simply because the Branch Dividians lost sympathy from the general public. It's one thing to be persecuted for your beliefs. That's bad and goes against the freedom we like to think we stand for here in America. It's another thing entirely to call yourself "God" and hide out with everyones' daughter in an armory that would make the NRA blush... and David Koresh did, in fact, claim himself as God Incarnate. Obviously, most everyone else thought he was profoundly mistaken (and potentially criminally insane by default). Pride goeth before the fall.
***
I'm not happy with the way the siege was conducted or the final result. OTOH, I can't say that I much sympathy for their cause.
...It further alienates me when guys blow up buildings in memorium to the Waco cause.
 
Originally posted by onejayhawk
Their beliefs, among them that all girls age 14 and older were reserved for the first use of the Elder, in this case Koresh, is offensive to most. Koresh had as many as 150 children by dozens of women. Some consider it illegal.
I don't think you can 'considering' it illegal; it is illegal if you agree with statutory rape or not.

Freedom of religion is a guarantee, but that doesn't allow one to practice illegal acts and place them under the guise of faith. I cannot place it within the realms of my diety that murder is okay, nor rape, even if I truly believe it is.
 
Thanks for the great summary, onejayhawk. :)

One question: I recall speculations that Timothy McVeigh (the Oklahoma bomber) had connections to teh Davidians. Have these speculations ever been proven correct?
 
Originally posted by Panda
Thanks for the great summary, onejayhawk. :)

One question: I recall speculations that Timothy McVeigh (the Oklahoma bomber) had connections to teh Davidians. Have these speculations ever been proven correct?

All I've ever heard is that Timothy McVeigh's act of terror (apparently according to McVeigh himself) was in protest of the government's actions at Waco; not that he necessarily had any personal connections to the Branch Davidians.

Unfortunately, the fact that McVeigh claimed (or implied) that as a reason for his own atrocity, has probably (further) villainized Koresh and the Waco Branch Davidians. I.e., if you so much as QUESTION what the BATF did there, a lot of people start thinking of you as some sort of far-right loony-tune like McVeigh. And THAT assumption is a dangerous one--one should NEVER feel villainized for questioning the actions of their government. (And McVeigh was not a criminal for his BELIEFS, but his ACTIONS. Let's get that straight right now, if it isn't.)

Anyway, even though Koresh may have committed crimes by having sex with 14-year-olds (I don't know what the age of consent in Texas is though, in some states it indeed is as low as 14), THOSE crimes aren't federal crimes but state ones, and either way it didn't justify the METHODS of "apprehension" of the suspect. And ironically, those methods ended up getting those 14-year-old "victims" killed too.

Our government errs (remember also Wounded Knee), and barring circumstances unmentioned here, erred in Waco. Some people just can't face the fact that their government can f*ck up big time--it just shakes their faith too much, I guess....
 
Originally posted by Greadius
I don't think you can 'considering' it illegal; it is illegal if you agree with statutory rape or not.

Freedom of religion is a guarantee, but that doesn't allow one to practice illegal acts and place them under the guise of faith. I cannot place it within the realms of my diety that murder is okay, nor rape, even if I truly believe it is.

This practice is much disputed. Koresh definitely prefered more mature women, generally at least 20 years old. So this is not a situation where he was playing Chairman Mao and bedding 10 and 11 year old girls.

However there clearly was a ceremony where all of the girls were dressed in white dresses and presented to the Elder. They would receive a token, a ribbon on the wrist I think, signifying the bond they had for Koresh from that point on. Koresh had first claim on literally every woman in the group. His Harvard educated attorney had at least two children by him.

All that being said, local consent laws were not broken. Everything was strictly legal, as Koresh demonstrated in court. When I said he was agile in the legal process, this is one area that I refer to. Without a doubt his behavior and attitudes were guaranteed to set a liberal's teeth on edge. This is also why many people consider the raid to be a fishing expedition. Technically the warrant was to search for automatic weapons violations. Many consider the real reason to be that people like CPS wanted to look around, unannounced.

Consider for a moment. Koresh was deeply and forthrightly religious. This by itself draws fire from elements of this oard, much less the media culture, which views matters of faith with suspicion. He was a pure authoritarian figure, ruling his domain with unquestioned authority, which is also going to draw fire from the left, especially when you add in his sex and the distintly lower level he insisted women take. Finally he was a gun collector. Never mind. The NRA has no apponents and gets everything it wants.

All of this will set the radar of interventionists twitching. Then he manages to thwart them in the courts time and time again. He wasn't paranoid, they were out to get him.

J

PS That still does not excuse the fact that once things settled down he refused to surrender. He most likely would have been tried and convicted of Murder of Federal agents. If that is the case so be it. Martin Luther King would have done the time.

PPS The connection to McVeigh is negative. TM saw himself in Koresh. He was a pocket despot wannabe, like Koresh, as well as an explosives nut (in my experience no one else will work with the stuff). Since the Federal Government was telling himthat he could not do what he wanted to do, they were the enemy. In his mind, if they would persecute DK in this fashion, they would persecute TM in this fashion. This would be enough to commemorate the bombing in OKC with the date of the fire. It was a symbolic retaliatory strike.
 
That was a fairly, uhm, positive assessment of the situation from the perspective of the 'BD'. You say the shooting started after they tried to force the door, unanounced even. I'm sure the 'certified right wing law and order type' has lauged many a time at that when he's seen that complaint made by Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. I can't believe the ATF wouldn't announce who they were.

Koresh's dispute for control of the 'BD' was with the previous leaders' son. It was a typical power struggle. The son forced Koresh and those that followed him out of the compound. And Koresh forced his way back in. Both incidents involved gun play. The second incident lead to the trial.

I'm not going to pass judgement on the practices or beliefs of the 'BD'. I don't care. I don't care how many wives he had. I'm sure Bill Clinton and Janet Reno could give a rat's @ss about them......accept for the fact that they were suspected of breaking other laws. Laws by which we all live by. They objected to being subjected to these laws because they disagreed with them. They weren't subjected to anything more for this than any one of us would. We'd be served a warrant. The difference is, most of us would allow the search to happen rather than trying to blow heads off.

And yes, the feds handled things very poorly. That can't be debated. You can blame Janet Reno, who'd been on the job for all of something like 3 months....Waco would be a nice trial by fire for any AG.

But, this shooting didn't begin as they tried to force open the door, did it? The shooting began a little sooner, as these law enforcement officers approached the doors. The 'BD' knew the people coming for them were law enforcement officers. As you said, they knew something was up. Look. The media knew ahead of time. They were on the way. One of them asked a mailman where the compound was. The mailman was Koresh's brother! I can't say for sure, but I'd say they were made aware that all of the guys running around with guns and ATF flak jackets were, in fact, ATF, and made a decision to hold off these officers by force.

How long did they defy the law? It was weeks. After the gun battle, the police told them to come out and they continued to refuse. And whether or not they had what the warrent was looking for is totally irrelevant.

What I can pass judgement on Koresh for is knowingly putting in danger all of those people, particularly the kids. If he had a death wish and wanted to die like some kind of martyr, fine. Why take kids with you, other than to make it that much more of an spectacle.

Its a good thing the Russians weren't in charge, they would have busted out the gas much sooner.

I'd agree that the only connection between McVeigh and Koresh was in McVeigh's mind.
 
Reno had not been on the job three months. It was more like three days. Remember that Clinton had a previous candidate who was shot down because of her racism. This was laying on her desk when she arrived. Reno has a lot to answer for, but this one should be laid elsewhere. Clinton and Reno may not have had a personal stake in the event, but they both signed off on it in the final accounting.

Ace, you seem to say that the BD knew that it was law enforcement coming after them. If so please give your evidence, because everything I have seen indicates massive confusion. It has never, to my knowledge, been established that BATF identified themselves. What we do know is that it was done in the middle of the night with military grade weapons and armor. I hav no problem believing that those in the compound only knew that men with guns were coming at them.

Let me underscore one thing clearly. There was no history of violence with the law. The force outside the compound building was out of proportion to anything in the previous history. This is one major criticism that has never received a satisfactory answer. True, the BATF had a warrant, but it was for suspected ams violations. There was no indications of drugs or other aggravating factor. So the question of why the Bureau used this type of sudden assault raid is very real. The legal question of whether the BD's were defending their home against armed assault can not be thrown lightly aside. They would be wrong in that case, but it would be a mitgation.

There is no doubt that Koresh and the rest of the BD should have surrendered. Obviously some did. That he could not bring himself to leave the last vestage of his supremecy is understandable, not laudable. Martin Luther King did his jail time. Koresh did not.

Pease do not make the mistake in thinking I defend his actions. I am glad his offensive practices are gone from the area. The church that has been built on the site is just that, a church. The days of a pocket kingdom are over.

What I take offense at is the way a federal agency was willing to abuse its authority. It is not that the raid was badly conceived and badly carried out. It is that there was araid in the first place. There is an element in this country that sees the FBI, BATF, Secret Service and so on as storm troopers of an oppressive government, ready to silence opposition with force. The jury foreman is symapthetic to that view, though not an active subscriber. I am not particularly sympathetic, but the events in Waco tend to lend credability rather than the reverse.

What is ironic is that the same people that fear a runaway government are also the people that make up the bulk of law enforcement and military. One criticism that was leveled continully a President Clinton is that he did not understand the military, and so botched his attempts to use it. This seems to be a case of his administration botching paramilitary force in our own country, and for very suspect reasons.

Koresh had very little to support him, morally and ethically. The best thing that can be said about him is that he was a citizen. It was the people that claim they protect the little guy that were out to get him. In the end its all a matter of scale. hes wasnot big enough to fight the whole government and win, but he was not small enough to be protected from it either.

J
 
Originally posted by The Troquelet
But Koresh is still alive?
No way. He and most of the adult followers died either in the fire or from self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Some people for a while thought that Koresh had escaped, but then his body was identified by dental records soon after the incident.
 
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