Numidian Calvary > Horse Archers the proof.

AbsoluteZero · Apr 29, 2011

Ya that's right. This is for all those of you doubters who think that NC are a downgrade from the regular horse archer.

This is with a fractal map posted on these forums:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1zWyeBFvM

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqw2lSCQMtE

Spoiler :

Jester Fool · Apr 29, 2011

Too drunk to watch right now, but thanks for the vids - my morning is now full. :lol:

Have I ever told you, you are my hero ? AZ FTW!

ond_magiker · Apr 29, 2011

Great stuff. Very educational.

GGracchus · Apr 29, 2011

Very nice, AbsoluteZero. FTR, it is the Emperor Series, not the Emperor Student. Next time, I will remember to put the Wheel in the Deity save.

pi-r8 · Apr 29, 2011

I notice your NC had a rather tough time breaking through his archers and chariots...

Also, I don't understand the point in waiting long enough to get writing and open borders, if you're not going to scout his territory and look for his source of copper.

sadmachines · Apr 29, 2011

pi-r8 said:
I notice your NC had a rather tough time breaking through his archers and chariots...

Also, I don't understand the point in waiting long enough to get writing and open borders, if you're not going to scout his territory and look for his source of copper.

But doesn't he want the AI to build metal units to get the bonus against them?

pi-r8 · Apr 29, 2011

And for the record, when attacking a combat 1 spearmen in a flatland city with walls and 15% fortify, the odds of winning are:

combat 2 shock NC: 21.9%
combat 2 shock HA: 12.5%

So admittedly, the NC is better in that situation... but it's not substantially better. Either way, you're probably going to lose the first unit that attacks, and finish the spear off with the second. So there's no real difference. However, when attacking a 15% fortified CG1 archer in that same city...

combat 2 NC: 27.2%
combat 2 HA: 50%

So against the archers, the extra strength of the HA really makes a big difference, whereas the NC has only a small benefit against the spears. Sometimes it's even a disadvantage, since it makes the AI less likely to come out of the cities and attack you with its spears.

pi-r8 · Apr 29, 2011

sadmachines said:
But doesn't he want the AI to build metal units to get the bonus against them?

I guess if the purpose of the game is to try and use NC at their best, yes. But usually even NC are better off fighting archers than spearmen.

TheMeInTeam · Apr 29, 2011

combat 1 Shock NC vs combat 1 axe in 50% city:

5.5 vs 5 + 5(50% city + 25% fortify - 50% NC UU -25% shock + 10% combat) = 5.5 vs 5.5, though you've a good withdraw chance

Combat 1 shock HA vs combat 1 axe in 50% city:

6.6 vs 5 + 5(50% city +25% fortify -25% shock +10% combat) = 6.6 vs 8

Combat 1 shock NC vs combat 1 spear in 50% city:

5.5 vs 4 + 4(50% city +25% fort +100% spear -50% UU - 25% shock +10% combat) = 5.5 vs 8.4

Combat 1 shock HA vs combat 1 spear in 50% city:

6.6 vs 4 + 4(50% city +25% fort +100% spear - 25% shock +10% combat) = 6.6 vs 9.6

NC is better against axes/swords, similar-to-WORSE (!) against spears, and markedly worse against archers when attacking cities with a basic defensive structure.

Your success is more a representation of your skill rather than how good NC are. I'd bet you'd have pulled this off at least as easily with stock HA.

You pointed out how great the NC were killing those 2 spears; but if you'd have attacked with HA on the previous turns rather than NC, that city would have been captured before the AI could have created them :lol:

.

sadmachines · Apr 29, 2011

pi-r8 said:
I guess if the purpose of the game is to try and use NC at their best, yes. But usually even NC are better off fighting archers than spearmen.

Ok, but writing is a good tech anyway. The plus green diplo with other AI, possibility of foreign trade routes, might get some religion, leads onto math for better chops, leads onto alphabet for trades, can build libraries for science multipliers and scientists, etc.

ahcos · Apr 29, 2011

Well, they do work alot better for you then they do for me somehow :lol:

might be my overall lack of experience @ Deity. Nonetheless, seems i stand corrected, you were right.

AbsoluteZero · Apr 29, 2011

TheMeInTeam said:
NC is better against axes/swords, similar-to-WORSE (!) against spears, and markedly worse against archers when attacking cities with a basic defensive structure.

I didn't think they could possibly be worse so I worldbuildered in a NC and a HA and did some testing.

These are the results of the BUG mod's statistical info ( which could be wrong for all I know ).

This is vs a 25% fortified spear with 50% wall defense. No hill. No promotions.

No levels:

NC - 2.97% victory, 32.07% survival

HA - 1.30% victory, 21.04% survival

Combat 1 + shock:

NC - 10.95% victory, 37.66% survival

HA - 9.69% victory, 27.75% survival

Combat 3 + shock:

NC - 25.94% victory, 48.16% survival

HA - 23.87% victory, 39.09% survival

This is vs a 25% fortified archer with 50% wall defense. No hill. City Garrison 1 promotion.

No levels:

NC - 10.56% victory, 37.39% survival

HA - 26.16% victory, 40.93% survival

Combat 3:

NC - 30.57% victory, 51.40% survival

HA - 65.94% victory, 72.75% survival

Combat 5:

NC - 63.77% victory, 74.64% survival

HA - 74.06% victory, 79.24% survival

This is vs a 25% fortified sword with 50% wall defense. No hill. No promotions.

No levels:

NC - 9.94% victory, 36.95% survival

HA - 3.25% victory, 22.60% survival

Combat 1 + shock:

NC - 32.65% victory, 52.85% survival

HA - 20.91% victory, 36.73% survival

Combat 3 + shock:

NC - 67.12% victory, 76.98% survival

HA - 29.44% victory, 43.55% survival

So according to BUG NC are better vs everything but archers ( and HA of course ). However as I pointed out in my video you don't run into enough archers for it to be a concern because the AI builds mostly metal units.

And the extra withdraw chance almost makes up for the shortfall.

pi-r8 · Apr 29, 2011

AbsoluteZero said:
So according to BUG NC are better vs everything but archers ( and HA of course ). However as I pointed out in my video you don't run into enough archers for it to be a concern because the AI builds mostly metal units.

And the extra withdraw chance almost makes up for the shortfall.

It is actually possible for NC to be worse vs. spears, but it requires some pretty extreme situations. The real problem is that NC are just a little bit better vs. spears, but a whole lot worse vs. archers. Is it really worth a 1% higher victory chance against spears, if they're 30% less likely to win against archers? Not to mention the problems with chariots and horse archers.

ben-jammin · Apr 29, 2011

pi-r8 said:
It is actually possible for NC to be worse vs. spears, but it requires some pretty extreme situations. The real problem is that NC are just a little bit better vs. spears, but a whole lot worse vs. archers. Is it really worth a 1% higher victory chance against spears, if they're 30% less likely to win against archers? Not to mention the problems with chariots and horse archers.

at higher difficulties the AI more or less stops building archers when they get bronze. and when you start attacking with mounted they build spears galore.

AbsoluteZero · Apr 29, 2011

pi-r8 said:
It is actually possible for NC to be worse vs. spears, but it requires some pretty extreme situations. The real problem is that NC are just a little bit better vs. spears, but a whole lot worse vs. archers. Is it really worth a 1% higher victory chance against spears, if they're 30% less likely to win against archers? Not to mention the problems with chariots and horse archers.

For the last time:

Archers are not the problem, spears / swords / axes are the most spammed unit once the AI gets metal

Chariots are a non-issue and you should not run into other horse archers because you should not trade away HBR. Most AI's don't get HBR for a long time.

And when you're fighting melee units in the open field the advantage becomes much larger.

For instance when fighting a combat 1 spear with no defense bonuses:

Combat 1 + shock NC = 63.53% victory, 74.47% survival

Combat 1 + shock HA = 31.03% victory, 44.82% survival

That is HUGE. This means that the AI is mostly going to cower in his cities and won't do much counter-attacking, which makes things a lot easier.

Cusanus · Apr 29, 2011

TheMeInTeam said:
Combat 1 shock NC vs combat 1 spear in 50% city:

5.5 vs 4 + 4(50% city +25% fort +100% spear -50% UU - 25% shock +10% combat) = 5.5 vs 8.4

Combat 1 shock HA vs combat 1 spear in 50% city:

6.6 vs 4 + 4(50% city +25% fort +100% spear - 25% shock +10% combat) = 6.6 vs 9.6

Not sure if others agree, but in my experience, the spears at least should not be (fully) fortified for a realistic picture - they usually are the emergency unit built by the AI during the few turns of war.

pi-r8 · Apr 29, 2011

AbsoluteZero said:
For the last time:

Archers are not the problem, spears / swords / axes are the most spammed unit once the AI gets metal

Chariots are a non-issue and you should not run into other horse archers because you should not trade away HBR. Most AI's don't get HBR for a long time.

And when you're fighting melee units in the open field the advantage becomes much larger.

For instance when fighting a combat 1 spear with no defense bonuses:

Combat 1 + shock NC = 63.53% victory, 74.47% survival

Combat 1 + shock HA = 31.03% victory, 44.82% survival

That is HUGE. This means that the AI is mostly going to cower in his cities and won't do much counter-attacking, which makes things a lot easier.

How can you say "archers aren't a problem" when you lost a ton of units attacking archers in cities, in your own video? Watch your video again, being brutally honest with yourself, and tell me that there weren't a lot of situations where you'd be better off with horse archers.

Yes, he did built a lot of metal units, since you waited until 1000BC to declare, and made no effort at all to pillage his metal. I would have declared in 2000BC and gone directly for his copper.

Spears on open ground aren't really a problem either- the problem is how do you take cities? and regular horse archers are better for that overall.

Mylene · Apr 29, 2011

Well tbh there are games where NC is a bit better, and games where HA are

If you want (need) to rush a protective AI, or Genghis, NC would make it much harder or impossible to do it efficent (in Genghis case).

One thing that is nice about NC is getting to F2 with just 1 promo.
Many ppl don't like flanking at all, but with Hannibal where promos come faster and the unit won't stay weak for a too long time, i think it is a valid option.

Iranon · Apr 29, 2011

Numidian Cavalry should usually be better against spears. Break even points for strength ratio occur at external modifiers of +100% for spears (plausible) or +250% for the horsey (no).
Keep in mind that combat promotions of the attacker don't count for this.

5 : 4+150% = 5:10 = 1:2
6 : 4+200%: = 6:12 = 1:2

4 : 5+200% = 4:15
4 : 6+150% = 4:15

Numidian Cavalry is ahead in between these, and has a native flanking promotion on top of that. Being behind in victory odds is plausible, but being overall weaker against spears is extremely unlikely.

*

Still don't like the UU at all.

TheMeInTeam · Apr 29, 2011

Your deity experience, on watching it, is very different from what I've seen on immortal and below BTW. I often run into groupings of 4+ archers in cities with only minimal metal garrison; it seems the deity tech speed + resource connection time has a material impact on its defensive composition. Arguably, this unit is at its best on deity if what AZ is saying about predominantly metal defenders is true (I don't doubt it).

Numidian Calvary > Horse Archers the proof.

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