We need a scottish civ!

There should really be a Scottish civ in the game - if for no other reason then just to kick the english's arse!
It's all very well editing a current civ (i usually choose the germans) - but it's not the same...

Funny thing is though - in the manual (the UK one at least) it shows a picture of the civ selection screen, and has 'British' instead of 'English' as a civ you can choose - good job Firaxis changed this in the game before the release - otherwise there would be a few scottish & welsh people complaining that elizabeth the 1st wasn't their queen...

P.S. Come on now - how many americans reading this thought that british & english were the same thing...?

Civ: Scotland
Capital: Edinburgh
Other Cities: Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth, Inverness, Kilmarnock, Ayr, Fort William, Dumfries
Leader: Queen Mary?
Unique Unit: Berserkers
Type: Scientific, Industrious
Favorite Government: Republic
Shunned Government: ???
Aggresiveness: Medium

What do you think?

Melrose, Stranraer, Ayr, Kirkaldy, St. Andrews, Arbroath, Oban, Aberdeen, Elgin, Kyle, Ullapool, Stornoway, Thurso, Wick.

Some place names would work well too: Shetland, Orkney, Hebrides, Islay, Mull, Skye, Arran, Ness, Aviemore.

Some heroes could be Robert the Bruce (could also be the king), William Wallace, Calgacus, Fergus MacErc, James I (king), Kenneth MacAlpine (king), Loarn, Patrick Stewart (not the Enterprise captain).

MacAlpine!
I knew i've heard that name before!

Cheers for the response !

You'd have to have Stirling too... since it is one of the historic towns.

Shaitan gets a gold star for mentioning Wick!

I think the idea of a scottish civ is haggas!!!

but if there is one, then the leader should be Willie!!! Doh!!!

Rob Roy!

I agree that the use of the word English to represent British is incorrect. Whilst an Englishman is British, a Brit is not necessarily English.

Incidentally, it is true the Elizabeth was not Queen of Scotland. Wales is a more complicated issue. After the subjugation of Wales in 1284, Wales was considered a principality - the Prince of Wales being the heir to the English crown. Therefore, Elizabeth was indeed the monarch of Wales. Wales was never included in the list of domains of a British monarch simply because it wasn't considered a country in its own right. Therefore, Charles I was King of England, Scotland and Ireland.

As for the Scots as a seperate civ... Its a little hard to justify isn't it? I agree that the Scots have donated much to the world of Science, but I don't think they have culturely. This isn't intended to the offend... I have the utmost respect for Scots - I'm talking on a Civ scale here!

Having read up on Scottish history - I personally think the only real contender for your Leader is Robert the Bruce (incidentally, you do realise he was of Norman descent don't you - and therefore of the same blood as the English aristocracy!??). Despite the fact he only came into his own once Edward I was dead, and only had the weedy Edward II to deal with - he was still a mighty ruler.

Heroes? William Wallace (the real one, not the ficticous character portrayed in Braveheart), Macbeth, Rob Roy

Special Unit: Has to be the Highlander doesn't it? Upgradable to Black Watch. Another possibility would be Schiltron the early pikeman employed by Wallace to effect, but weak against the English (or actually Welsh) Longbow.

If there was a European version of Civ then the Scots would be a definite inclusion though. That would be good.

Hope I didn't offend any Scots in this post, despite my Username

how about the welsh?

Civ: Welsh
Special Unit: Vengeful Sheep


now that would be excellent, ruling the globe with an army of pissed off ass raped sheep.

Originally posted by dizidave
how about the welsh?

Civ: Welsh
Special Unit: Vengeful Sheep


now that would be excellent, ruling teh globe with an army of pissed off ass raped sheep.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm!

As I said above their special unit should be the Longbow since they did invent it. Although the English were the ones that turned it into being just a kick ass power bow, to being a devastating military weapon when used en masse by highly trained bowmen.

Their leader could be Henry Tudor or Llewellyn Ap Gruffyd (sorry for the really crap spelling), or maybe even King Arthur!!! Any of these could be heroes with the addition of Owain Glyndwr.

I'm not getting involved in sheep-shagger jibes...

The whole Scottish Idea is neat, but I don't think it is practical. Two civs (English/Scottish) starting so close to one another would make for some pretty short games, especially since the two are natural rivals and very agressive.

Why stop at the Scots? There were six main settlements of the Celtic invaders. Scottland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Manx and Brittany. Garret and I are working on making all six of them into civs. Should be pretty neat to start them all up on the Brittish isles and maybe throw in the Romans and French.

The problem I'm running into is finding heros and rulers for the Isle of Man and Cornwall. Any ideas?

Yeah, but you can't have the splitting up of the Celtic tribes without doing the same to the true English ones (ie pre-Norman).

In addition to your list:
Mercians
Saxons (could be split into the various groups - Wessex, Essex, Sussex and Middlesex)
Angles
Jutes
Northumbrians
Danes

You can't have French either if you want it to fit in with the rest. If you want the Romans in there they would have to be Gauls, or if you want a later period they would be Franks, with Normans as a seperate tribe.

Anyway, a brief history of the tribe migration for anyone interested in creating a mod or scenario:
The Celtic tribes that inhabited England and Wales prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasions were the Southern Celts. After the invasion these were pushed into Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man (?)and Brittany. A distinctly different Celtic race (with a different language) inhabited Ireland - these were the Scots and the Irish (the Scots only migrated to Scotland in the 7th-8th Centuries). The inhabitants of Scotland prior to this were the mysterious Picts, but no-one really knows what happened to them after the Scots invaded.

In England, the South was largely made up of Saxon tribes after the invasion. The east of England was mainly Angles, and Kent and the Isle of Wight were Jutish lands to begin with. With the Viking raids, the East and North became a mixed race of Saxon, Angle and Danes - and this even extended into Scotland (the lowland Scots have more in common with the English racially than they do with the Highland Scots!).

Nearly finished boring you all now... Wessex became the dominant Saxon race (the Mercians disappearing from trace) until the Norman invasion when the ruling class (not the peasantry) were almost entirely Norman. This also spread into Scotland (Robert the Bruce was of Norman descent).

Hope that was of use to someone... sorry but British history is my fave subject.

"Englishman is British, a Brit is not necessarily English."

Oh God, here we go. At least this has remained a civil thread.

At least Civ2 had the Celts, at least you can edit your civs but I don't think there's sufficient demand to roll the idea out to the entire production run.

Why must "English" be British? I'm a Geordie and I certainly don't consider myself to be British, just like Scots and Welsh. Why aren't Scots and Welsh British? I look on a map or your passport and it says "UK".

Modern concept of Nationalism have seriously clouded peoples perceptions of their roots and belonging.

Originally posted by Gruntboy
"Englishman is British, a Brit is not necessarily English."

Oh God, here we go. At least this has remained a civil thread.

At least Civ2 had the Celts, at least you can edit your civs but I don't think there's sufficient demand to roll the idea out to the entire production run.

Why must "English" be British? I'm a Geordie and I certainly don't consider myself to be British, just like Scots and Welsh. Why aren't Scots and Welsh British? I look on a map or your passport and it says "UK".

Modern concept of Nationalism have seriously clouded peoples perceptions of their roots and belonging.

Click to expand...

You've totally misunderstood my point.

Other nations, particularly Americans, tend to use British and English synonymously. My point was, that if the only thing you knew about someone was that they were English, it is also true that they are British (you could say the same of a Scot or Welsh person). However, if the only thing you knew about someone was that they were British, you could NOT assume they were English (they may be Welsh, Scots or N. Irish) and therefore the terms British and English are NOT synonymous. That was my point!

I think you are assuming that I'm Scottish or Welsh and moaning about being called British. A quick glance at my username gives a very big clue of my nationality - nickname of Edward I - English King, now falsely maligned due to a historically inaccurate Hollywood Movie?? I'm English man, and proud of it. If anyone ever asks my nationality I will always say English rather than British.

I don't dislike the other British nations - but that doesn't mean I can't refer to myself as English - its not a slight on them - its just pride in where I come from!

This game needs to make sure it differentiates between British and English. Either it creates an English civ, or it creates a British one, not one that is a mix of both. Age of Empires II has a similar (and in fact worse) problem with this misunderstanding.

Hope that explains what I was getting at!

No Mr Longshanks, I didn't misunderstand your point. I am also a student of History and am well aware of who Longshanks was, thank you all the same.

In all fairness I was using your quote as representative of some of the other opinions in this thread (and clearly you have now explained your preference of being English before British). Perhaps I should have ellucidated this. However, I disagree with your sentiments as posted. Perhaps we both should have been more careful in our wording? I don't see myself as British or English. It is a source of constant ammusement for me that people take great pride in their "national" alignment, such a ridiculous concept as you have clearly shown in your post about tribes.

I am a citizen of the UK only because it says so on my passport. But its not worth my time fighting with people I don't know because of their National "identity".

BTW I never assumed anything about you (though Longshanks gave it away). To assume makes an ass of U and me.

Fair enough.

I have no desire to fight with anyone over my national identity. I do not consider my nation to be superior to any other nation - including Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

I love History and England's history is in particular something to be proud of if you are English. I'm not talking about victories over our foes etc, I'm talking about the pure entertainment factor and the variety of great stories that are woven into our history. THAT is what I'm proud of, not specific achievement. England's history is as full of failure, cruelty and other negative aspects as there are positive, but one-upmanship isn't what I want from it - just entertainment.

My choice of username isn't because I want to agrivate the Celts - its simply because I like Edward I as an historical character - for no other reason than I find that period interesting. The guy isn't 1 dimensional - he's not a good nor bad guy - he's a medieval king that I find interesting.

There is no harm in being proud of your nationality providing arrogance and jingoism are not invloved. I don't hate anyone from any other nation based purely on their nationality.

I agree about the futility of the British nations fighting and bickering. As you rightly said, my tribe migration post highlights quite clearly how closely the Dark Age races are related.

Cheers

Cheers Edward

You do indeed have a grasp on your History. Most stimulating.

I used to know a guy who worked in an investment bank. He was called Edward and answered the phone as "Edward Longshanks" - it use to throw his American customers something rotten. (perpetuating the opinion that we are all related to the Queen and strut around in tights).

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Cheers Edward

You do indeed have a grasp on your History. Most stimulating.

I used to know a guy who worked in an investment bank. He was called Edward and answered the phone as "Edward Longshanks" - it use to throw his American customers something rotten. (perpetuating the opinion that we are all related to the Queen and strut around in tights).

Click to expand...

I haven't seen the Queen for ages. I really must invite 'Aunty Liz' around soon!

I like the Scottish. Hello, yoorrre Englishman, I'm going to weeepe ote yoorrre wee little army.

Of course, maybe they should just put the Celts into the game.