My remastered Empire of Thessalonike scenario

This is my scenario for civ2 mge. It is about the states in the balkans and anatolia in 1204.
Playable nations are:

-Despotate of Epirus (Empire of Thessalonike)
-Empire of Nicaea
-Latin Empire of Constantinople
-Minor latin kingdoms
-Serbia
-Bulgaria
-Veneto

You are strongly urged to play as the Empire of Thessalonike, since most events are for it. However the Empire of Nicaea and Bulgaria are fun as well

Oh, and please report how you liked the game!

Dl it Here

this looks interesting what is the empire of thesolonike? i never heard of this empire. im a big history person. iv heard of about 1,000 or so cultures and nations on the earth.

heres a article on wikipedia that shows what your talking about
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Nicea

the article features a map with the town thesolonike in the 1200's ad. there is no empire of thesolonike but its a real place its part of the latin empire. id like to download this but cant find a link to it. if the map looks realistic enough then ill think you did good job. remember im the kind of guy that likes the most number of civilizations 7 of them so let me know where to download.

i did diownload it ,i could not get this thing to work i cannot find fantastic worlds on here and try get my game working. could you create basically the same game except base it on the original classic modpack that comes with the game for people like me that cant install diffrent modpacks?
ok i downloaded it and i put in fantastic worlds i see the map and i see all the city names and i think its a good scenario. im going to try convert the game into a classic scenario with out a mod pack upgrade. the map that it uses covers 7 modern day nations so were in luck with making a creation a scenario based on real life.

heres the 7 countries on map
Greece
turkey
bulgaria
Romania
albania
Macedonia
serbia

also part of montenegro

im playing the scenario now. i think its great but it has many inacuraces. when i picked empire of thessolonike i found out the real name of this civilization was called the despotate of Epirus. i renamed the country as such. im looking at my historical atlases and i found you only gave them 4 cities and i studied the atlases and found this empire was way to small for the early 1200's AD period in fact just using the cities you had on the map and not building new ones the empire has grown to 7 cities. and i have not conquered anything beyond what they ruled historically in the early 1200's
i also found out that on your map theres no united Latin empire that was on the map in real life in fact theres a civil war going on between two civilizations to try unite this country the tribes were called Empire of constantinople and minor latin kingdoms.

its a wonderful scenario even if i cant get the modpack to work so im re-doing the whole scenario to make it better. also when i went ahead to enlarge the despotate of epirius to its real life size in the demograpics secton i became second largest civilization. its a fun one. i think ill make my own scenario out of this to upload. it has so much potential.
I think the first scenario ill make from this is going to be called Byzantine civil war from 1204 to 1240 AD and bulgaria empire is the largest country in this time period so if you play as them you could try to seige constantinople city like in 1235 AD except instead the outcome could be bulgarian victory.

the time borders on the byzantine civil war are from 1204 when despotate of epirus became independent to the year 1240 AD when the mongolians began ariving effectivly ending the civil war in bzantine nation

anoter interesting scenario using this map would be Ottoman empire but that would be complicated casue at some point cause ottomans control the entire map.

Hi, the despotate of Epirus became the Empire of Thessalonike, after liberating Thessalonike. It lasted for a few years, but ultimatelly was crushed by the bulgarians at an ambush at Clokonitsa.

If you try to make a new scenario out of this then i ask that you specifically state it was made from my own, not present it as your own work. Unless, of course, you only want it for personal use, in which case (obviously) you can do whatever you want

Good thing that you found the scen interesting.

no this is going to be a completly diffrent thing. your empire of thesolonike is a cool scenario. but im going to make something of my own with this. im going to unite both civilizations of the Empire of constantinople and the monor latin tribes into the latin empire of 1204 AD. the minor latin tribes will get re-named Turkish tribes. already Bulgarian empire is the largest covering 1500 tiles of space both land and sea. no my scenario will be a classic scenario with classic rules no modding but i would like to change the turn increments instead of a turn being only 1 year id rather a turn be a 4th of a year that would better simulated the bulgarian seige of constantinople in 1235 casue that seige lasted for 7 months. if turns were 1 whole year it be as if they got on there horses in 1230 ad arived at the gates of constanople in 1235 attaked and just left. where as a longer year scenario would be more realistic. also Despotate of Epirius os now 11 cities big but still only includes epirus region this is the list

Valona
Tepelene
kerkyra
butrinto
castoria
ioannena
nikopolis
palairos
arta
Karpenision
neupaktos

not yet tried to simulate the thessonike conquest thing.
size is 328 tiles and ranks 7th in size so far.

i found a city called called kastoria but i got rid of it i bulldozed it casue it was in the wrong location so i put a new city one tile nearby called Nestorion. castoria is located on 14,54 and borders nestorion.

Good luck with the scen
Just mention where it was based on, since you'll be using my custom made map, and most of the city placement i gather.
If so, i allow you to use also the chosen units as they are, although you might want to make changes.

you said that despotate of Epirus conquered and held thesonike. what years of history did that happin? in one of my atlases of world history it shows that in the period from 1217 to 1221 Eprirus ruled over The site where Nestorion is located. also iv taken The city of Metsovon its a suburb of my capital of Arta also i founded a town called velvendos and now my despotate of epirus now controls 14 cities acording to 1220 AD real life boundaries.

yeah thanks ill say you created the custom map its no problem. i am having some fun playing as this country iv blay the scenario again and again about 4 time this is my 5th time playing it. i play the period from turn 1 in 1195 to turn 45 in 1240 AD.

heres a map of it on wikipedia but i cant make out the years of things the print is too small

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Epir1205-1230.png

Here is a book about it:
http://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Empire-Thessaloniki-1224-1242/dp/9608433177

Perhaps wikipedia has something as well (?)

are you kidding me that book is like 700 bucks that is nearly half the money i save yearly.


ok im still working this scenario out. my goal is to have a master piece that uses up all 255 city slots. after i do so ill single out places that i think are not important enough to be sites for city territories based on curent day population under american difinition of what a city is. that is to say 100,000 people in a 10 mile radius of the town center. which is a very small city and would be very sparsly populated even at this level and 100,000 people is only class 4 type. which means that the central city could include small villages in that 10 mile radius.

im finished with the core area of Epirus im now working on its marcher states (border regions) i had to re-locate skopje it was completly in wrong location so was pritzen and Prilep a major city on the map in the 1200's was completly ignored. its one of thos 100,000 pop area clusters i talked of.

im only going to play test this scenario about 6 more times and then ill get to work on making bulgaria more realistic after serbia is finished.

bulgaria still growing now at 1733 tiles and if it takes Skopje it will continue to reflect more of the 1204 to 1214 borber with epirus.

right now Epirus has 19 cities following the 1214 border with the exception of the island of corfu (kerkyra) still only ranks 7th in territory size.

Nice

I have two questions, since you appear to be familiar with the history of the region.
I am making a civ3 scenario about the entire eurasia, and wanted to ask which city was the most important one in Epiros in 1300. From a map i have i see that Nicopolis appears to be byzantine at the time, and so does Valona to the north, but the bulk of epirus is independant, and i am looking for their main city. Not sure if Ioannena was yet so important.

And i am also looking for the main city in the Vlach independant state, around Larisa (probably should be LArisa, but again im not sure).

it depends on how big the map is. if its like a giga map you could probably fit in more than one city for epirius. as far as i know you should start with the capital city. of arta. on my gigamap of the earth not having antartica theres enough space for only a handful of cities on the map you had. there are 5 of them they area yugoslavia (belgrade), greece (athens) ,romania and bulgaria (sofia-bucharest) , istanbul turkey , izmir turkey. so start with city of Arta and then ask me what area is not covered with a city on this map.

Here is a pic of Macedonia-Thrace, so that you can see the scale



However it is a VAST map of the entire Eurasia and northern Africa, so i will not put many cities in each region, which is why you see only the main ones. The limit in civ3 is 256 cities, and i should be cautious. Therefore i will add Arta for Epiros.
What about the Vlach state?

well it depends on the time scale. is this a simulation thats time stuck in a primitive area like some midevil modpack or is it flexable and goes to the 21st century?

here are some city's

Arta....Epirius capital to 1358.
Ioannia.......capital 1358 to 1416.

i can tell at this scale that theres not enough room for much so just rename Arta to Ioannia after 1358.

based on the map peice you showed me i deduced that some other cities i deem important at this scale would be

Skopje capital of Macedonia its very important it was on the scenario of yours you had just in wrong location.

Tirane...capital of Albania.
Belgrade
Sofia
Bucharest
Sarajevo

the map peice you gave me lets me know that your map area is more detailed then gigamap with out antartica im working on so you wont have a city named Sofia-buchareast it gets broken up into its two states with capital city names.

but even at this detailed scale you gave me a peice of a map iv found that epirus would still be a force in the region with two cities of Arta and Tirane. show me more map peices of lands around this map so i can callaborate further witrh you.

as for the vlach state it really depends on the time frame in the 800's ad they were not a urban people so there capital would just be called vlach camp basically in the 800's during charlemagne they were treated as a people like a indian on a reservation here in the USA just a tribe of people in a perticular area so vlach camp would do for the 800's but 500 years later in 1300's things may or may not be diffrent. the vlach's were found located in yugoslavia in the 800's so its possible the just asiimilated into the rasca state by 1300's but it must have been breif casue the ottomans were on there way in the 1400's.

which reminds me of a tribe called the Chud in noth west russia same situation no city name just a people on the go hunting and gathering. chud would be present on eurasia. if your eurasia includes all of russia. the chud of course are no longer with us they are all dead or asimilated. one of russia's many now exstinct ethnic groups. as for people i decendfrom by the 1300's they were well rooted and urbanized not like wandering tribes in the second half of the middle ages. im anglo-saxon american. im 3/4th american and 1/4th ethnic bavarian from a group coming over and founding a small village in the 1830's.

im very interested in this project im working with you on. i dont have the other civilization games but would like your work to be better than the one im playing now. and its a must have to use all 256 slots.

send me a picture of another map piece.

if you cant fit in Tirane and Skopje just call the city tirane-skopje and say macedonia republic is a protectorate or something but i need more maps to look at with cities on them to study. also im looking at my hammond 21st century atlas and theres only a few cities in balkans that are large enough to have urbanized areas.

Zagreb has a urbanized area and its a city of between half a million to just under 1,000,000 is the braket. theres a few towns touching its city limits i think it should annex sesvete. its only about 5 miles from the city center the other towns near zagreb are further out.

other urban area in the balkans area are
Vienna
Budapest
odessa
belgrade
Bucharest
sofia
Istanbul
Athens

all other cities weather there a capital or not have no urban built up areas next to them.
oddly istanbul has barely any built up area and its 2 million people. it has a town that could be annexed called alibeykoy which is only about 3 miles from the town center on the urban area limits. so this istanbul must be as packed with people as manhattan ,Newyork ,NY in density.

The timescale is 1300 to the first discovery of the Americas

It turns out i can place double that amount of cities, so 512 in total

So in Greece i currently have:

Thessalonike (Byzantines)
Philippoi (Byzantines)
Adrianople (Byzantines)
Constantinople (Byzantines)
Ioannena (neutrals)
Igoumenitsa (coastal in the mainland, next to Corfu, Byzantines)
Arta (neutrals)
Larisa (neutrals)
Athens (neutrals)
Monemvasia (southern Peloponnese, Byzantines)
Korone (west of Monemvasia, Venice)
Patra (northern Peloponnese, neutrals)

Since in civ3 there can only be 31 civs, i have to use the neutrals for many cities in the map

Edit: here is a pic:

great map. but i think you could merge the towns of Arta and Ioannia into a single comunity called Arta-Ioannia im sure a town name this long is aloud on the game.

also Igoumenitsa is part of the despotate. i see curfu is on the map remember to put a tribe on it thats whatever Venice is. also if you merge thos two towns you could put the town center in the tile inbetween thos two towns and use the space to make another city called Neupaktos thats on the coast right across from Patra.

show another map peice to the north with budapest and vienna.

also i wanted to point out the despotate remains a power in this area till the 1400's when the ottomans come in and take it. dont forget the ottomans started off as a town called Eskishehr in 1299 AD

heres how the ottomans exspanded
Eskishehr....1299
Bursa.........1326
NicoMedia...1337

then it was 1350 AD

despotate was concoured in 2 parts Epirus in 1430 and albania in 1479 not to mention many other gains from 1350 to 1430 but the seige of Vienna in the year 1671 to 1683 period destabilized the ottomans and made them weaker but the 1600's come after 1500 of course

you said your period was from 1300 to 1500.

If you have civ3 Conquests you could really help me with the scenario. Either way the thread for its development is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=364457

You cna also have a look here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9220378#post9220378

If you can help it would be really great

For the time being i am putting the other scen on hold, since it was too grandiose to work on these days.