SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Duckweed said:

Sorry, I thought that you wanted to send a galleys with settler through that area. If sending the settler through the south icy passage, Probably not worth the effort since Astronomy should be close at that time. Moreover, I think we might not need to steal techs from Mansa after we pass this difficult time since our tech rate will be far better than Mansa in the future.

Ok

OK to gift liz happy and health resources.

Shall we complete Edu now as some cities could start building it soon.

Sounds good.
Are we trading away Machinery in some fashion on T121?

What to do with the glorious scouting WB?
It is too glorious to simply delete!
Let it keep exploring, increasing the value of our map.
When it dies, it dies.

Combining Doshin and Kaitzilla's thoughts of GG usage, shall we use the 2nd GG as attaching to a galley and sharing 10 exp with a trireme?

Click to expand...

Would the trireme be Leadership and Combat II? (Can do a free upgrade to Caravel once we get Optics)
+2 would let it keep up with the galley, but I'm not a big fan of movement bonuses on a warship that barely wins fights.
A good compromise that I'd favor would be +1 that the Great General unlocks, Combat I, and Leadership (+100%xp).
Blitz could wait until 37xp since attacking 1 enemy ship per turn is tolerable with Leadership bonus.

Two 5 galleys would be a good use of the GG too.
Or saving it to settle in Heroic Epic city.

^
I'm not sure whether we should trade away Machinery. If we do, I prefer to trade CS+Machinery <-> Phi+Calendar and then gift Calendar to Louis to ensure that he builds MoM.

I prefer to attach 2nd and 3rd GG to 2 galleys so that we get the free upgrade to galleons, and attach the 4th GG to the trireme and free upgrade it Frigate to earn more exps. GG attached Caravel is not good enough against galleys. Trireme should be promoted to combat line, blitz and leadership as you suggested.

For the GM Mission, I am not sure if I am calculating this correctly, but:

DanF5771 said:

The profit of a trade mission is calculated as:
[pre]Profit = 500 + 200*CapitalTradeProfit[/pre]CapitalTradeProfit is the income this city would get for a trade route to your capital. All modifiers are factored in (Harbor, ToA, CitySize, ConnectionToCapital, OverSeas, Foreign, PeaceTime). Thus the ToA-city is often optimal, but not if it is an inland city close to your capital on the same landmass. Since the Base Profit of a trade route is Min(SizeOfOtherCity, PlotDistance)/10 you should always attempt to have a big capital (wait for growth before starting missions).

Click to expand...

London should have: +25% for connection to capital; +100% for Overseas Trade; +150% for Sustained Peace; +100% for Temple of Artemis


etc.

Every pop in Athens grabs 95G more, I think.

----

Final thoughts:

• Bulawayo: bombarding with the 4.9 health Catapult will lead to better odds than healing (not only for the Catapult, but for other attackers too). I'm ok to wait a turn. I hadn't considered that Shaka might be hiding troops in Ulundi.
  
• Bulawayo: you could either sacrifice the Chariot (leave exposed to the Impi) while pillaging a Cottage; or you could move it to join the western stack.
  
• I would like to trade CS/Music + Machinery for Philosophy + Calendar on T121. Gift Calendar to Louis.
  
• I would prefer not to attach any GGs until we know what the last Cathy and Izzy hints are. But the initial Galley + Trireme sharing scheme sounds ok.
  
• Utrecht: I'm not sure how you're managing the Granary build here, but you might consider using the Avoid Growth option if you are using 2 chops. This is only efficient if you build the Granary with 17F exactly (and work both Deers the following 2 turns).
  
• Scouting WB: carry on around the Spice islands; try and get a feel for Tokugawa's territory if possible. Then Catherine's.

Work Boats can travel on Ocean tiles once we have Astronomy.

If I were the mapmaker, I'd leave an unsettled island of riches only accessible to civilizations that reach Astronomy.

Doshin said:

Utrecht: I'm not sure how you're managing the Granary build here, but you might consider using the Avoid Growth option if you are using 2 chops. This is only efficient if you build the Granary with 17F exactly (and work both Deers the following 2 turns).

Click to expand...

2 workers could chop the granary in 3 turns and the city is @17/24F while the city is working on a Deer and a mine.

PPP for the next few turns:

Tech: Edu --> pause on PP?

Diplomacy:

Gift happy and health resources to Liz.
Give away Iron
Tech trade: trade CS/Music + Machinery for Philosophy + Calendar on T121. Gift Calendar to Louis

City build:

Hagues: CH --> JM --> J Missionaries/Lib
Ams: Lib --> Market
Nobamba: 2 pop whip forge --> granary -->CH
Utrecht: Granary --> Forge --> CH
Sparta: Forge --> Units or Market?
Knossos: Forge --> CH
Myc: Forge -->CH
Phar: Forge --> CH
Iron city: Galleys
Corinth: whip cata --> Warriors/Archers
Argos: Market --> Univ
Athens: Try to grow big, Market --> Univ Shall we 2 pop whip Market? 15~20 gpt @ 0% slider
Thebes: Forge --> Lib --> Univ
Horse: catas
Whale: Forge --> CH --> Lib
Eretria: Granary --> LH
New Southeastern island: Granary --> LH Shall we send 2 nearby workers to chop
Other South islands: As discussed before

Worker micro:

Basic rule
Road > Chop > Tile improvement

War:

Western stack: Bulawayo (remove defense and then charge) --> Ulundi
Eastern stack: Kwa --> Umg -->Ulundi


Mis:

2nd GG is close, attaches to a galley and shares exp with a trireme.
Scouting WB: keep alive

Duckweed said:

2 workers could chop the granary in 3 turns and the city is @17/24F while the city is working on a Deer and a mine.

Click to expand...

So 20F when the Granary completes?

(1) Regular Growth



(2) Avoid Growth:



+7F from Avoid Growth.

-----

Duckweed said:

PPP for the next few turns:

Tech: Edu --> pause on PP?

Ok.


Diplomacy:

Gift happy and health resources to Liz.
Give away Iron Ok, but only when we have enough # to wipe Shaka.
Tech trade: trade CS/Music + Machinery for Philosophy + Calendar on T121. Gift Calendar to Louis

City build:

Hagues: CH --> JM --> J Missionaries/Lib
Ams: Lib --> Market
Nobamba: 2 pop whip forge --> granary -->CH
Utrecht: Granary --> Forge --> CH
Sparta: Forge --> Units or Market?

Units.

Knossos: Forge --> CH
Myc: Forge -->CH
Phar: Forge --> CH
Iron city: Galleys
Corinth: whip cata --> Warriors/Archers
Argos: Market --> Univ
Athens: Try to grow big, Market --> Univ Shall we 2 pop whip Market? 15~20 gpt @ 0% slider

Fine to whip for the turn we finish Education, and then University/max food.

Thebes: Forge --> Lib --> Univ
Horse: catas
Whale: Forge --> CH --> Lib
Eretria: Granary --> LH
New Southeastern island: Granary --> LH Shall we send 2 nearby workers to chop
Other South islands: As discussed before

Send to (pre-)chop the big Fish Island. Will this have a WB?

Worker micro:

Basic rule
Road > Chop > Tile improvement

War:

Western stack: Bulawayo (remove defense and then charge) --> Ulundi
Eastern stack: Kwa --> Umg -->Ulundi

Spoiler :

Mis:

2nd GG is close, attaches to a galley and shares exp with a trireme.
Scouting WB: keep alive

Click to expand...

Check Ulundi for the sabotage production costs. The Moai Statues cost 250H. Shaka will only switch to units when he capital is under threat.

Keep an eye on Louis' trades, in case he claims the Desert Stone.

Green light.

We can't send the worker to prechop the last fish island since no galley is closer than the one with settler, yes, there's a WB left of argos is coming. However, 2 workers will surely speedup the chop of granary and LH.

Duckweed said:

Mis:

2nd GG is close, attaches to a galley and shares exp with a trireme.
Scouting WB: keep alive

Click to expand...

My weekly snippet: GG can only be attached to boats in a city as I remember from an old SG game with obsolete. Just be sure to remove the garrison before doing so.

Keep the hammering going!

Why are we gifting away iron?
We own the only source on the whole island and are at war.

Is it to make more warriors to garrison our cities?

Kaitzilla said:

Why are we gifting away iron?
We own the only source on the whole island and are at war.

Is it to make more warriors to garrison our cities?

Click to expand...

Yes, produce some warriors. Our metal units are enough, 6 maces + 4 swords + 5 Phalanx + 4 spears, so we only need to produce catas. Also as you can see, almost all cities are producing infrastructures.

Played to T125, which is the end of turn. Again, please check the save for mistakes, suggestions, and something that need special attention. I made a mistake on a fish island -- forgot to build culture before border pop.

Report

T120: took Kwa with the loss of 2 catas, kept granary
T122: took Bul with the loss of 1 cata only, kept LH, but lost LH granary
T124: took Umg, lost 1 cata, kept granary and Aqu. Looks like the luck conservation law starts to work in this turn session.
T125:

Empire overview. Note that Liz settled Coventry east of Hague, save us a settler.



Shaka's last city



Tech trade screen

Duckweed said:

Report

T120: took Kwa with the loss of 2 catas, kept granary
T122: took Bul with the loss of 1 cata only, kept LH, but lost LH

Click to expand...

Your battle luck evened out.

Duckweed said:

T122: took Bul with the loss of 1 cata only, kept LH, but lost LH

Click to expand...

Anyway, everything looks good.

Some small suggestions/comments:

1. Mycenae: build Culture and queue a Settler before the Forge? We need 2 more Settlers for our continent (1 for Gems; 1 for southern Tundra Forests) and can whip it later.
   
   
   Spoiler :

   
2. I'd be happy to trade old techs to Mao for Feudalism:
   
   
   Spoiler :

   
   
   I think he will get these from Louis if we don't make the trade.
   
   
3. Will the GMerchant pop before the Elizabeth DOW? 6-turns are needed to generate the GP, and 4-turns to move it to London:
   
   
   Spoiler :

   
   
   
   
   
4. Looks like the hidden continent is between the Fish Islands and Whale Island:
   
   
   Spoiler :

   

Mansa is building two wonders and Louis two more. I don't think that Mansa has Marble, so it's probably the SP and something else. Hopefully not the MoM.

WB Scout is still going.

I bet the unknown continent contains a small army of barb Galleys.

1. OK
2. Let's finish the archer in Corinth this turn and do the trade next turn
3. Shall we hire a merchant to make it 4 turns?

The gems city is completely useless. Please don't build it.

• With interest, it's going to cost 13+ gpt (and more later) and provide 11gpt at size 1, 14 gpt if it builds wealth its whole life.
• Even if it turns into a profit (much) later, it has no food (or will weaken nearby cities).
• 100H to build. We're already looking at 100+ turns to pay back.
• Almost all forests can be chopped for 24 hammers to existing cities.

We don't have any of the religious wonders, don't spam cities for fun. Especially not inland. The tundra city is nice either for its trees or as National Park+Epic (if we'd be there early).

There's a fundamental disagreement, I know.

kossin said:

The gems city is completely useless. Please don't build it.

• With interest, it's going to cost 13+ gpt (and more later) and provide 11gpt at size 1, 14 gpt if it builds wealth its whole life.
• Even if it turns into a profit (much) later, it has no food (or will weaken nearby cities).
• 100H to build. We're already looking at 100+ turns to pay back.
• Almost all forests can be chopped for 24 hammers to existing cities.

We don't have any of the religious wonders, don't spam cities for fun. Especially not inland. The tundra city is nice either for its trees or as National Park+Epic (if we'd be there early).

There's a fundamental disagreement, I know.

Click to expand...

I don't have very strong preference for the gem site, however it might be a little beneficial if borrows the Deer tile from Hague for some turns to grow to certain size and then work on some windmills and workshops later. We could chop 2 forests to complete granary, the cost of the city would be 7g+~5g civic when with SP, but if it grows to a bigger size, it can be beneficial, especially during GAs.

I agree not much gain.

@kossin

I'm not suggesting that we settle the Gems site now. There are more useful builds and pressing tasks. But Corinth is the city that is least hurt by a Settler whip as a military pump with bad unhappiness (not a GP farm) and it is about to pop borders.

A Gems city would be positive when whipped from a city with essential infrastructure and no more useful tiles to claim. You shouldn't underestimate a size 3 city working 2 Windmills and a Gems while in a 36/48-turn Golden Age and State Property.

----

@Duckweed

I support finishing the Archer before the trade, and running a Merchant in Athens.

Are you sure that we should build a Monastery in The Hague? It is a long way from cities that need religion. We can only have 3 Missionaries at one time and these cost to maintain.

----

I am now undecided about building the FP. We could chop it in the southern Forest Tundra (basically, Forge ---> CH ---> FP; 4 Forests for Forge; 8 Forests for CH + FP). Really, we should decide what wonder we want from these trees. It is tough on Worker turns.

I'd prefer not to chop the Taj here, since I recently learned that it is better to build the Taj in a city that was was founded early on (here: Athens ---> Sparta ---> Corinth ---> Thebes, etc.). Production occurs sequentially, with the game cycling from city #1 to city #2 to city #3, seeing what completes. After the Taj is built, the GA unofficially begins (though the countdown has not yet started) and any remaining cities behave as though they were in a Golden Age. This only affects production and GP generation (order goes: food/culture ---> commerce ---> production ---> GP generation).

So we would gain an extra turn of GA hammer and GP production in ~25 cities if we build the Taj in Sparta (seems easier than Athens) rather than a late city, where it is chopped. Utilizing the MoM bug would bring this to 14 turns.

----

@all

Do you think we should trade for Engineering?

You always neglect opportunity cost in your analysis. What about earlier gpp? Earlier military? Those two have a much stronger snowball effect potential than a small city that may or may not contribute 100b in the long run. As Duckweed says, this may or may not make 1T difference.

I'm still a bit baffled we don't know all 3 hints for Catherine and still no concrete plan to get the remaining two. Also, was it cleared that we need Oil/Uranium 'enabled' or simply controlled i.e Fort+road+culture? I can't remember.

@kossin


As for purchasing the Catherine hints, that is a separate matter.

If you want to argue to do this, please make your case.

Yesterday:

• I suggested that we purchase hints and attack Rotterdam.
• Duckweed preferred to utilize the Worker turns now and use Rotterdam as a base to attack Elizabeth.

Duckweed's arguments convinced me.

If they did not convince you, then speak up.

No aggression is meant. The usual lack of emphasis shows in our game. We always have something else to do than gpp. We have several good sites which could whip specialist buildings and generate GS/GM rather than settlers to control unhappiness (yes this is under way, but very late with Creative and how early we had Currency). Mycenae is no exception in my mind.

Not whipping away improved tiles... well sure but we don't have to get more improved tiles because they're being whipped. More workers instead of more settlers is an option.

The only argument which can be made for obtaining Catherine's remaining hints is that they could be faster to attain. The earlier we know these, the better we can aim the course to victory. Right now we're planning a late research boost to reach late techs... what if this isn't necessary? An early Communism beeline (like 10T ago) could have been better - yet we don't know.

We don't need workers to buy the hints. Set up a few spies and EP on WvO and we can gain everything back since he only has one city. Or force revolt and buy back the gold. Anything!

Doshin said:

c

@Duckweed

I support finishing the Archer before the trade, and running a Merchant in Athens.

Are you sure that we should build a Monastery in The Hague? It is a long way from cities that need religion. We can only have 3 Missionaries at one time and these cost to maintain.

Which city do you prefer, still Utrecht, the problem is that Utrecht is not ready unless we skip CH, which costs more than the maintenance from missionaries and slower.

I am now undecided about building the FP. We could chop it in the southern Forest Tundra (basically, Forge ---> CH ---> FP; 4 Forests for Forge; 8 Forests for CH + FP). Really, we should decide what wonder we want from these trees. It is tough on Worker turns.

Let's skip FP, we are quite close to Communism, should be no more than 30 turns.

I'd prefer not to chop the Taj here, since I recently learned that it is better to build the Taj in a city that was was founded early on (here: Athens ---> Sparta ---> Corinth ---> Thebes, etc.). Production occurs sequentially, with the game cycling from city #1 to city #2 to city #3, seeing what completes. After the Taj is built, the GA unofficially begins (though the countdown has not yet started) and any remaining cities behave as though they were in a Golden Age. This only affects production and GP generation (order goes: food/culture ---> commerce ---> production ---> GP generation).

So we would gain an extra turn of GA hammer and GP production in ~25 cities if we build the Taj in Sparta (seems easier than Athens) rather than a late city, where it is chopped. Utilizing the MoM bug would bring this to 14 turns.

Good idea.

@all

Do you think we should trade for Engineering?

Click to expand...

For sure.

kossin said:

No aggression is meant. The usual lack of emphasis shows in our game. We always have something else to do than gpp. We have several good sites which could whip specialist buildings and generate GS/GM rather than settlers to control unhappiness (yes this is under way, but very late with Creative and how early we had Currency). Mycenae is no exception in my mind.

Except SGOTM 12, I think our management of GPs is better than other teams, otherwise, how could you explain what let us get the gold? More GPs does not means better strategy. For instance, both TSR and PR got more GPs than us in SGOTM19, but the final output of beakers were way lower than us. The reason is simple, every decision has the tradeoff, while you gain more GPs, you lose production and beakers from tiles. GPs after 10 are too costly and usually not worth the effort in non-space race game.

Not whipping away improved tiles... well sure but we don't have to get more improved tiles because they're being whipped. More workers instead of more settlers is an option.

The only argument which can be made for obtaining Catherine's remaining hints is that they could be faster to attain. The earlier we know these, the better we can aim the course to victory. Right now we're planning a late research boost to reach late techs... what if this isn't necessary? An early Communism beeline (like 10T ago) could have been better - yet we don't know.

We don't need workers to buy the hints. Set up a few spies and EP on WvO and we can gain everything back since he only has one city. Or force revolt and buy back the gold. Anything!

Click to expand...

We are going to wipe out William in 10 turns, do you think knowing more hints 10 turns earlier will affect anything? Except my lack of luck of managing Mansa going for Astro line, our tech choices have been perfect until now, we won't get to Communism any earlier from our own side, but only on AI's tech choice.