Israeli human rights group's death tally broadly same as official Palestinian one

RedRalph · Sep 9, 2009

From BBC

An Israeli human rights group says many more Palestinian civilians were killed in the Israeli military's campaign in Gaza than the army admits.

B'Tselem said detailed research with careful cross-checking showed 1,387 Palestinians died, over half of them civilians and 252 of them children.

This contradicts an Israeli army report stating fewer than 300 civilians died in fighting in December and January.

Israel launched the assault to halt rocket attacks from Hamas-run Gaza.

The overall B'Tselem total broadly tallies with the official Palestinian death toll and the findings of other non-governmental organisations, although the proportion of civilians it identifies is lower.

The group says the extent of civilian deaths does not prove, in itself, that Israel violated the laws of war.

However, it says it raises grave concerns about the military's behaviour when taken in the context of "numerous testimonies" from troops and Palestinians.

Amnesty International has already accused Israel of committing war crimes during its offensive.

The Israeli army has admitted "rare mishaps" during the campaign but denies troops violated international humanitarian law.

B'Tselem said the findings had been compiled during months of research, including visits to the families of those killed.

It said it was unable to compare its figures with the official Israeli ones because the military refused to provide its list of fatalities.

The group said the results should compel the Israeli government to launch an independent investigation into its three-week offensive.

Earlier this year the Israeli army said that 1,166 Gazans were killed in the conflict, a quarter of whom were civilians.

Its figures indicated that the toll included 709 militants from Hamas and other groups, and 295 non-combatants.

According to B'Tselem, 1,387 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli military, including 773 civilians, 300 combatants and 248 civilian police - whom Israeli officials classify as militants.

B'Tselem has counted 252 children under the age of 16 who were killed - the military puts that figure at 89 - and 109 women over 18.

"The extremely heavy civilian casualties and the massive damage to civilian property require serious introspection on the part of Israeli society," B'Tselem said, adding that it considered the army's internal probe insufficient.

The group acknowledged the challenges of combat in the densely crowded Gaza Strip, and criticised the "illegal and immoral actions" by Palestinian militants accused of hiding among the civilian population.

But this "cannot legitimise such extensive harm to civilians by a state committed to the rule of law", B'Tselem added.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the report, but has previously rejected such criticism.

It has said the aim of the campaign "was target the Hamas terror organisation and not citizens of the Gaza Strip".

Jaysus, there sure are a lot of anti-semitic Jews out there... what do you think? Could the Israel govts figures be right and the Paletinian and B'Tselem be wrong?

Camikaze · Sep 9, 2009

Definitely spies/terrorists planted to create civil tensions. Because obviously the statistics provided by the Israeli army are completely accurate.

Yeekim · Sep 9, 2009

I would have labeled the thread: "Israeli human rights group's death tally broadly same as official Israeli one".

1387 vs 1166
Difference seems to be mainly in who were considered "militants".

Are these here to be tallied as "children under 16" or as "militants"?

Spoiler :

Truronian · Sep 9, 2009

I'd say militants, given that they're in their 30's by now.

Winner · Sep 9, 2009

Only 773 "civilians" out of 1.5 million after days of heavy urban warfare? :eek:

Thanks for another proof that the Israeli military is among the best in the world in avoiding civilian casualties :goodjob:

plarq · Sep 9, 2009

RedRalphWiggum said:
From BBC

Jaysus, there sure are a lot of anti-semitic Jews out there... what do you think? Could the Israel govts figures be right and the Paletinian and B'Tselem be wrong?

Oh, I misread the title and thought that Israeli human right groups suffered casualty as much as Palestinians.

Godwynn · Sep 9, 2009

We can't trust the BBC, we know it stands for British Broadcasting Communism.

Camikaze · Sep 9, 2009

Winner said:
Thanks for another proof that the Israeli military is among the best in the world in avoiding civilian casualties

I dunno. The Vatican's Swiss Guards probably give them a run for their money.

That is, avoiding civilian casualties generally involves not going to war in the first place.

Truronian · Sep 9, 2009

Godwynn said:
We can't trust the BBC, we know it stands for British Broadcasting Communism.

Nah. It stands for British Bolshevik Communism.

MobBoss · Sep 9, 2009

RedRalphWiggum said:
From BBC

Jaysus, there sure are a lot of anti-semitic Jews out there... what do you think? Could the Israel govts figures be right and the Paletinian and B'Tselem be wrong?

Did this group publish a figure on how many were killed when Hamas took over? I seem to recall more than a few Fatah members taking headers off of rooftops then.

Formaldehyde · Sep 9, 2009

Yeekim said:
Difference seems to be mainly in who were considered "militants".

Exactly.

An Israeli human rights group says many more Palestinian civilians were killed in the Israeli military's campaign in Gaza than the army admits.

Spoiler :

I've spared posting the gruesome photos so as not to offend the sensibilities of those who condone and even advocate such acts. For those who are actually interested, just google "palestine white phosphorus" and go to the images section to see for yourself...

MobBoss · Sep 9, 2009

Formaldehyde said:
I've spared posting the gruesome photos so as not to offend the sensibilities of those who condone and even advocate such acts. Just google "palestine white phosphorus" and go to the images section to see for yourself...

Oh brother. Here is a clue for you. Urban operations often need use of smoke to mask troop movement and block visibility. There is no better smoke generating substance than white phos, and its use in this capacity is completely legal per the law of war.

Can it still burn people? Absolutely, but then again, even regular HE rounds can burn people. Is that how the material is used or designed? Nope.

The application and use of white phos is perfectly legal. Get over it already.

vesley1987 · Sep 9, 2009

Formaldehyde said:
I've spared posting the gruesome photos so as not to offend the sensibilities of those who condone and even advocate such acts. Just google "palestine white phosphorus" and go to the images section to see for yourself...

Of course these pictures are gruesome.
That's the nature of war.
I assure you that people killed or heavily injured by normal explosives (like a suicide bomber) don't look any better.

Formaldehyde · Sep 9, 2009

MobBoss said:
Oh brother. Here is a clue for you. Urban operations often need use of smoke to mask troop movement and block visibility. There is no better smoke generating substance than white phos, and its use in this capacity is completely legal per the law of war.

Oh brother. Claiming the Israeli military used white phosphorus to create smoke so they could attack the UN headquarters, which was never attacked by Israel for obvious reasons, is nothing but yet another absurd attempt to derail the discussion.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Main_UN_compound_in_Gaza_shelled_with_'white_phosphorus'

MobBoss said:
The application and use of white phos is perfectly legal. Get over it already.

It actually depends on how it is used. And this was clearly not a legitimate use as you incorrect allege. Just ask the Israelis who later apologized.

Get over it already.

vesley1987 said:
Of course these pictures are gruesome.
That's the nature of war.
I assure you that people killed or heavily injured by normal explosives (like a suicide bomber) don't look any better.

This was no 'war'. It was the slaughter of people who obviously couldn't even defend themselves.

Palestinians killed: 1,387
Israelis killed: 13

MobBoss · Sep 9, 2009

Formaldehyde said:
Oh brother.

Polly want a cracker?

Claiming the military uses white phosphorus, instead of other compounds which are much more effective to generate smoke, is nothing but an absurd attempt to divert the discussion yet again, especially when you consider the compound in the photo above was the UN headquarters, which was never attacked by Israel for obvious reasons.

Nope. White Phos is used because of is unique smoke generating properties, other compounds are simply not as effective or as easy to use. Its use as a smoke agent is widely regarded to be second to none.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Main_UN_compound_in_Gaza_shelled_with_'white_phosphorus'

You may want to check your link.

It actually depends on how it is used. And this was clearly not a legimitate use as you incorrect allege. Just ask the Israelis who later apologized.

The apology wasnt for the use of the White Phos, but for the destruction of the relief supplies that were located there.

Formaldehyde said:
This was no 'war'. It was the slaughter of people who obviously couldn't even defend themselves.

Palestinians killed: 1,387
Israelis killed: 13

Then perhaps people who cant defend themselves shouldnt shoot rockets into Israel.

Eh?

TheLastOne36 · Sep 9, 2009

There was fighting? Sure there was. That means there was civilian casualties. The good part however is that the number is so low, proves that Israeli military is among the best in the world.

vesley1987 · Sep 9, 2009

Formaldehyde said:
This was no 'war'. It was the slaughter of people who obviously couldn't even defend themselves.

Palestinians killed: 1,387
Israelis killed: 13

I don't blame people for doing a great job.

Formaldehyde · Sep 9, 2009

MobBoss said:
Polly want a cracker?

Polly want to come up with a better expression to use in his all-too-typical apologies for all US and Israeli war crimes?

MobBoss said:
Nope. White Phos is used because of is unique smoke generating properties, other compounds are simply not as effective or as easy to use. Its use as a smoke agent is widely regarded to be second to none.

Um, nope. WP is actually quite mediocre as a smoke generator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_screen

And it should never be used at all when civlians are suspected to be present for reasons which are quite obvious to most rational people.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...ite-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

The Israeli army used white phosphorus, a weapon with a highly incendiary effect, in densely populated civilian residential areas of Gaza City, according to indisputable evidence found an Amnesty International fact-finding team which reached the area last Saturday.

When white phosphorus lands on skin it burns deeply through muscle and into the bone, continuing to burn until deprived of oxygen.

Amnesty International’s delegates found still-burning white phosphorus wedges all around residential buildings on Sunday. These wedges were further endangering the residents and their property; streets and alleys are full of children playing, drawn to the detritus of war and often unaware of the danger.

The carrier shells which delivered the wedges were also still lying in and around houses and buildings. Some of these heavy steel 155mm shells have caused extensive damage to residential properties.

"Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert who is in Gaza as part of the four-person Amnesty International team.

"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield," said Cobb-Smith. "It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it that should never be used on civilian areas.”

Donatella Rovera, Amnesty’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories said that such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. "Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime," she said.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/16/israel-stop-shelling-crowded-gaza-city

(Jerusalem, January 16, 2009) - Israel's use of heavy artillery in residential areas of Gaza City violates the prohibition under the laws of war against indiscriminate attacks and should be stopped immediately, Human Rights Watch said today. A Human Rights Watch researcher on the Israel-Gaza border on January 15, 2009, observed Israel's repeated use in the center of Gaza City of 155mm artillery shells, which inflict blast and fragmentation damage up to 300 meters away.

"Firing 155mm shells into the center of Gaza City, whatever the target, will likely cause horrific civilian casualties," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. "By using this weapon in such circumstances, Israel is committing indiscriminate attacks in violation of the laws of war."

According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), Israel yesterday shelled the relief organization's main compound in Gaza City, wounding three people. UNRWA believes that white phosphorus used in the attack set part of the compound on fire. Up to 700 city residents had fled there in the morning to seek refuge after intense fighting in the area. The Human Rights Watch researcher also witnessed ground-burst 155mm white phosphorus strikes in Gaza City.

"We warned the Israelis hour by hour through the night of the vulnerabilities here as the shells came closer and closer, and shrapnel was coming into the compound on a regular occasion," John Ging, UNWRA's Gaza director of operations, told the media. "Nonetheless, we have now been subjected to these direct hits."

MobBoss said:
The apology wasnt for the use of the White Phos, but for the destruction of the relief supplies that were located there.

It was apparently neither:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/16/israel-stop-shelling-crowded-gaza-city

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert apologized for the attack, but said Israeli forces had come under fire from the UN compound. "It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologize for it," he said.

So he apparently saying "we are quite sorry the UN was caught aiding and abetting known Palestinian terrorists".

vesley1987 said:
I don't blame people for doing a great job.

That statement speaks volumes.

http://marcovilla.instablogs.com/entry/israelis-cheer-as-gazans-die/

As Gaza burned, Israelis came “with binoculars and lawn chairs” to cheer on the IDF and expressing their hope for even more Palestinians killed as they watched the carnage on a hill overlooking Gaza. A 60-year old nurse, Jocelyn Znaty, could “hardly contain her glee” and confided to a Wall Street Journal reporter, “Look at that, Bravo! Bravo!” Recognizing that to a decent human being her words attest to personal immorality, she stated, “I’m sorry,” but then corrected herself expressing a sentiment heard throughout Israel, “but I’m happy.”

vesley1987 · Sep 9, 2009

Formaldehyde said:
As Gaza burned, Israelis came “with binoculars and lawn chairs” to cheer on the IDF and expressing their hope for even more Palestinians killed as they watched the carnage on a hill overlooking Gaza. A 60-year old nurse, Jocelyn Znaty, could “hardly contain her glee” and confided to a Wall Street Journal reporter, “Look at that, Bravo! Bravo!” Recognizing that to a decent human being her words attest to personal immorality, she stated, “I’m sorry,” but then corrected herself expressing a sentiment heard throughout Israel, “but I’m happy.”

Well, if someone has been throwing stones into my backyard for years, and finally he get beaten, I will crack a bottle of champagne. :mischief:

MobBoss · Sep 9, 2009

Formaldehyde said:
Polly want to come up with a better expression to use in his all-too-typical apology for all US and Israeli war crimes?

Rofl, you parrot me, and then tell me to be more original? :lol:

Nice.

Nope. WP is actually quite mediocre as a smoke generator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_screen

Uhm...your own link says this about it:

While very effective in visible spectrum, cool phosphorus smoke has only low absorption and scattering in infrared wavelengths. Additives can be present in the smoke which cover this part of the spectrum. [4]

Apparently you didnt even bother to read the article.

You also didnt click the link located there for the specific White Phos page which says, and I quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Smoke-screening_properties

Weight-for-weight, phosphorus is the most effective smoke-screening agent known, for two reasons: first, it absorbs most of the screening mass from the surrounding atmosphere and secondly, the smoke particles are an aerosol, a mist of liquid droplets which are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. This effect has been likened to three dimensional textured privacy glassthe smoke cloud does not simply obstruct an image, but thoroughly scrambles both visual and infrared radiation, interfering with infra-red optics and weapon-tracking systems, serving as a protection for military forces from guided weapons such as anti-tank missiles.

Please direct your attention to the words bolded and underlined.

In case you missed it...let me quote it again:

Weight-for-weight, phosphorus is the most effective smoke-screening agent known

Next time you may want to do a bit more reading on the links you provide.

And it should never be used at all when civlians are suspected to be present for reasons which are quite obvious to most rational adults.

Actually, the way white phos rounds are engineered are to precisely prevent such injuries....they typically use small pieces of white phos soaked felt, and the felt is consumed as the white phos burns out when it hits air. In order for someone to be burned badly by a white phos round, they have to be quite unlucky indeed.

It was apparently neither:

Again, try doing some research on this......you will find mention of the relief supplies if you actually look it up. The 'consequences' were mostly in relation to the relief supplies destroyed....not to the number of people killed or injured by white phos because the attack consisted of far more than just white phos. It was used as an initial smoke agent before the primary attack on the compound.

Israeli human rights group's death tally broadly same as official Palestinian one

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