Israel disciplines two senior officers for white phosphorus use

RedRalph · Feb 1, 2010

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8490646.stm

Israel has revealed it has disciplined two senior officers in its defence forces for using white phosphorus shells during an offensive in Gaza.

The admission is contained in the Israeli response to the Goldstone report, which concluded both Israel and Hamas had committed war crimes.

The identities of the officers and their punishment is not yet clear.

During the 22-day conflict last year media pictures showed incendiary shells raining down on a UN compound.

The officers ranks have been confirmed as a brigadier-general and a colonel.

"Several artillery shells were fired in violation of the rules of engagement prohibiting use of such artillery near populated areas," the report says.

The BBC's Paul Wood in Jerusalem says it is the first time Israel has revealed it disciplined any officer for their actions during the offensive, named by the Israeli military as Operation Cast Lead.

Our correspondent says the admission was buried in the document handed to the United Nations on Friday.

The UN General Assembly has demanded that both Israel and Hamas launch independent investigations into their conduct during the Israeli operation which began in December 2008.

An Israeli official said the submission to the UN was not intended to respond in detail to the allegations and incidents outlined in the Goldstone report, but to explain why the Israeli justice system was "reliable" and "independent".

The Islamist movement Hamas has denied that its forces deliberately targeted civilians with rockets.

Yet again, the whining lefties were right and the military men were wrong. Why does this keep happening?

Funny thing is, I have absolutely no doubt that some will still claim Israel did nothing wrong.

dwaxe · Feb 1, 2010

1. Sounds like BBC, but source anyway?

2. Israel needs to get its act together. It's getting hard to tell which group are the "good guys".

RedRalph · Feb 1, 2010

Whoops, my mistake. Link added.

ainwood · Feb 1, 2010

RedRalphWiggum said:
Yet again, the whining lefties were right and the military men were wrong. Why does this keep happening?

Funny thing is, I have absolutely no doubt that some will still claim Israel did nothing wrong.

Moderator Action: Pre-emptively, lets start with some discussion, rather than trolling.

RedRalph · Feb 1, 2010

OK, what do you think the punishment should be? Does this detract from Israels' moral credibility?

Camikaze · Feb 1, 2010

Actually, I think this improves Israel's moral credibility (wow, they actually did something), although knowing what the punishment is would be good.

G-Man · Feb 1, 2010

RedRalphWiggum said:
Yet again, the whining lefties were right and the military men were wrong. Why does this keep happening?

I'm not really sure how it makes the military men wrong - The position of the IDF was that its own investigations were good enough, and that every complaint is checked. Isn't this just another proof that it is infact the situation?

Also, note that the report is a bit confusing - these officers were diciplined for exceeding their authority in ordering artillery support in that area. They were NOT trialed for illegal use of phosphorus shells - this subject was already investigated by a dedicated committee:

"With the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead, IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi ordered the convening of five special investigative committees each headed by an officer with the rank of colonel to examine some of the serious allegations leveled against the army. One of the committees examined the use of phosphorus shells.

After three months, at the end of April of last year, then deputy chief of staff Maj. Gen. Dan Harel presented the committees' findings and with respect to phosphorus munitions said that they had found no instances in which shells were fired in violation of orders and in any event, they were fired in open areas. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1146638.html

Tee Kay · Feb 1, 2010

Camikaze said:
Actually, I think this improves Israel's moral credibility (wow, they actually did something), although knowing what the punishment is would be good.

Shackled and suspended in a tank of formaldehyde? Or is that too harsh?

MobBoss · Feb 1, 2010

RedRalphWiggum said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8490646.stm

Yet again, the whining lefties were right and the military men were wrong. Why does this keep happening?

Why do you assume this? The way the story is written, its not exactly clear they are being punished for WP use, but rather simply using excessive force.

Couple of examples from the story:

Israel has revealed it has reprimanded two top army officers for authorising an artillery attack which hit a UN compound in Gaza last year.

Both officers have retained their ranks, according to reports.

The Israeli army has not specifically said that the rules of engagement were broken over the use of white phosphorus

"Several artillery shells were fired in violation of the rules of engagement prohibiting use of such artillery near populated areas," the Israeli response to the Goldstone report says.

The officers were charged with "exceeding their authority" in ordering the use of the weapons in the attack.

Funny thing is, I have absolutely no doubt that some will still claim Israel did nothing wrong.

I think the story tries really hard to hang this on WP use and skirts the edges to label it thus. However, if you read the story carefully you will see Israel makes no claims of criminal wrongdoing.

RRW, this story simply doesnt say what you think it does.

Quackers · Feb 1, 2010

Sad day when you can't trust the BBC anymore.

MobBoss · Feb 1, 2010

Quackers said:
Sad day when you can't trust the BBC anymore.

Well, I certainly think RRW clearly jumped the gun with his victory comment in the OP. This doesnt prove the left correct and it certainly doesnt prove the 'miltiary men' wrong. Its just a case of someone getting wind that two Israeli officers got reprimanded and there happened to be a lot of WP used there so obviously, correlation = causation right?

Right.

Must have been a slow news day at the BBC 'cause they are usually better than this.

Also, what RRW ignores is that this 'punishment' was barely even a slap on the wrist. No charges, no one relieved of command and they kept their rank. Its the equivalent of a finger waving saying 'dont do that' and not much else....

amadeus · Feb 1, 2010

Let Israel wipe out the Arabs, see what I care... I just don't want us subsidizing it; we've got enough of our own problems without having to prop up Israel's social welfare regime.

Patroklos · Feb 1, 2010

Yet again the lefties were wrong, and there was no conspiracy for the widspread use of banned weapons from the highest levels of government. This is nothing more than a violation of procedures, and a minor one at that as the consequences show.

Yet another conspiracy theory falls flat on its face.

TheLastOne36 · Feb 1, 2010

amadeus said:
Let Israel wipe out the Arabs, see what I care... I just don't want us subsidizing it; we've got enough of our own problems without having to prop up Israel's social welfare regime.

Now that I think about it, I would not mind Israel ruling over the middle east.

Shekwan · Feb 1, 2010

RedRalphWiggum said:
[Yet again, the whining lefties were right and the military men were wrong. Why does this keep happening?

Funny thing is, I have absolutely no doubt that some will still claim Israel did nothing wrong.

Another case of shaping ones opinion to suit their political beliefs. Most of the military heads are pro-Israel.

warpus · Feb 1, 2010

RedRalphWiggum said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8490646.stm

Yet again, the whining lefties were right and the military men were wrong. Why does this keep happening?

Funny thing is, I have absolutely no doubt that some will still claim Israel did nothing wrong.

You know that these guys were reprimanded for reasons other than the use of white phosphorous, right?

I've seen this posted in a couple places, and nobody seems to catch that little fact.

AFAIK Israel has never admitted to using the stuff.

Formaldehyde · Feb 1, 2010

Camikaze said:
Actually, I think this improves Israel's moral credibility (wow, they actually did something), although knowing what the punishment is would be good.

Not when you consider the fact that it took them over a year to do so, despite overwhelming evidence that Israeli forces had indeed deliberately misused WP. And they admitted to these acts only after the UN was set to bring charges of war crimes against Israel:

A high-ranking UN official in Gaza told The Times today that over half a dozen unexploded IDF shells were found in the UN compound, all with serial numbers identifying them as white phosphorus.

After Operation Cast Lead finished, Lieutenant General Gabi Ashkenazi, the head of the army, set up five army committees chaired by colonels to investigate alleged abuses by IDF soldiers, including one looking at the use of white phosphorus.

It reported back in April that no shells were fired in violation of orders and that the munitions were only used in "open areas" — a statement that stretched belief, as Gaza is so densely populated.

The latest report appears to concede that, in one instance at least, the Israeli military investigation was mistaken.

Last month Israel paid $10 million (£6.2m) compensation to the UN for the destruction of its Gaza compound, without admitting liability.

In September, an independent report by Richard Goldstone for the UN Human Rights Council found that Israel made reckless use of white phosphorus during the Gaza campaign, and accused the IDF of war crimes.

Israel's purpose in its latest submission to the UN appears to be to stave off the UN's threat of launching war crimes proceedings if it fails to carry out an independent investigation into the military's conduct in Gaza.

MobBoss · Feb 1, 2010

warpus said:
AFAIK Israel has never admitted to using the stuff.

Nono, they admit using it, just not using it illegally. WP is not banned for use in generating smoke or use in illumination rounds. In fact, its probably the best smoke agent there is for military use.

You cant use WP as an incendiary weapon, but its absolutely legit to use it to create smoke.

warpus · Feb 1, 2010

MobBoss said:
Nono, they admit using it, just not using it illegally. WP is not banned for use in generating smoke or use in illumination rounds. In fact, its probably the best smoke agent there is for military use.

You cant use WP as an incendiary weapon, but its absolutely legit to use it to create smoke.

I'm not sure what makes it legal or illegal, or whatever, so I can't comment on your post, but in the end the guys in question weren't reprimanded for using it illegally, and for some reason everyone is reporting that they have.

G-Man · Feb 1, 2010

Formaldehyde said:
Not when you consider the fact that it took them over a year to do so, despite overwhelming evidence that Israeli forces had indeed deliberately misused WP. And they admitted to these acts only after the UN was set to bring charges of war crimes against Israel:

1. The Israeli investigations into complaints about illegal acts started as soon as the operations ended, and long before the goldsote report.
2. The new report just reveals that these officers were disciplined - AFAIK, it doesn't say when.
3. If you (or anyone else) has "overwhelming evidence that Israeli forces had indeed deliberately misused WP" how come no complaint was made to the military police? Or to the supreme court? Human rights groups had no problem doing so in other cases - what's so special about WP?

Israel disciplines two senior officers for white phosphorus use

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