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Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
11,057
Location
Texas
I've seen a few comments about the devs 'stealing' or 'poaching' ideas from modders lately, and just want to offer my thoughts.

So many companies are close-minded to what customers want, yet Firaxis, Blizzard, Mozilla, and others are supportive of their fanbase. These organizations have included much of the user-made third party development into their core program, or offered it through services like addons.mozilla.org. They know what people want - even if things aren't always perfect.

This trend should be increased, not discouraged. WoW's user interface has dramatically improved over the years thanks in large part to including many user-made addins. Dozens of mods in Civ 4 were added to the core game, even some modders were added to the core company for the final expansion. I'm thrilled whenever I see something added in a patch that might have been influenced by work I do.

Give fans the tools they need to create new content and run with it! There's thousands of people out there in the world willing to give it a try. We're still missing the c++ part of Civ 5's code, something that limits modding a lot.

More and more companies actively support third-party development beyond even providing the tools alone, to compensate for the thousands of hours of work involved and millions of downloads:

  • Apple has iTunes and the app store.
  • Blizzard has plans for ways top-notch mapmakers in StarCraft can make a living from their work.
  • Mozilla makes it easy for developers to set up voluntary donations.

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The cost of producing top-of-the-line computer games has skyrocketed in the past two decades. Games that used to be created by teams of five in 1990 now have teams of fifty or five hundred. Take the opportunity to provide third-party independent developers with the tools to improve the program, and fans will do lots of work for you. It makes customers happy and reduces costs for the company, a win-win! :goodjob:


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I totally agree. Other companies (such as Microsoft) even hired people responsible for fan patches for their new games.

And it's not like Firaxis would make money with creating patches, they just give their customers what they want...
 
I agree. Regarding the c++ sdk however, I'm assuming we will only get it once the codebase becomes relatively stable from changes. Arguably civ5 is in need of more extensive modification through patching than civ4 was so I guess the six(ish) months (I wasn't using a stopwatch) of waiting for civ4's sdk will look shorter in comparison to the wait for civ5's.

I want the c++ sdk more than I want to play the finished, polished game. Modding will take off once it's released and modders (I would say 'we' but I doubt how much I can do) will be able to spot and fix the mistakes of the devs much much faster (no offense, devs). Unless I'm mistaken, the bugged food basket in the city screen hasn't been fixed yet has it? There's no better way to describe that than embarrassing (if it is in fact fixed it will be me who's embarrassed :)).
 
Valve does something similar with TF2 - they're very supportive of their modders, and they enable independent content developers to make money off the assets they design and build.

I don't think anyone reasonably believes that developers "steal" from mods, because really - if those mods were developed to improve core areas of the game, why wouldn't the modder want those ideas to be incorporated officially?

I think the lulz occur when good modders diagnose and resolve problems within weeks that Firaxis takes months to address, that's all. ;)
 
If you tell us modders about Mod Browser issues, we can usually show you how to install our mods without having to use it.
 
IIRC it was T.S. Eliot who said, "Good artists borrow, great artists steal." Glad to see you are posting this, glad to see many of your ideas and those of other modders being absorbed into the vanilla game, and glad to see you encourage it--as by all rights all modders should be, as it's the best recognition of your talents.
 
Collaborative mediums were bound to create such an industrial (even more so in PC[etc]_Gaming development enviros) context eventually.
Cloud Computing, the mobile Office, Fiberwiring speeds... the human Intellect has broken the last frontier of optimal work within "Virtual" gimmicks.

I would claim that 75%+ of future methods will involve externally driven production done by subsidiary components, financially tied or not.
Binary certainly provides SVN capacities already and could be expanded to integrate participative contents for games.

Heck, i can even foresee one day when PayPal (and such) will simply accept Donation Payments for incredibly talented but still unknown people on a worldwide scale. We could reach a point where "Official Corporations" would have to hand over some sort of Royalties to their most precious contributors either via Modding or strict contracted Deals.

The WorkPlace principles have simply changed - drastically. Everything else must follow through.

The perspectives are wide open, AFAIC.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, the bugged food basket in the city screen hasn't been fixed yet has it? There's no better way to describe that than embarrassing (if it is in fact fixed it will be me who's embarrassed :)).
Soooo needed, it makes me bleed shame and irony together.

Weird technicalities has to be involved somehow, but how should i really know. I'm nowhere near a Dev Desk in Firaxis studios.
I can guess, though.
 
The bugged food basket is a simple error - the basket value is never set. :lol: This is missing from line 1363 in CityView.lua, which was somehow accidentally deleted a few months ago, and fixes the problem when re-added:

Code:
Controls.PeopleMeter:SetPercent( fGrowthProgressPercent );

Bugs tend to have priorities though and I suspect graphical display issues are low on their priority list.
 
The bugged food basket is a simple error - the basket value is never set. :lol: This is missing from line 1363 in CityView.lua, which was somehow accidentally deleted a few months ago, and fixes the problem when re-added:

Code:
Controls.PeopleMeter:SetPercent( fGrowthProgressPercent );

Bugs tend to have priorities though and I suspect graphical display issues are low on their priority list.

Re-reading my post I realise I didn't make it clear I knew there was a fix for this. I meant for some reason or other Firaxis have ignored it, not seen it, or are incapable of fixing it themselves. All 3 options are embarrassing. I guess it's also not smart to include that in a post about the c++ sdk when that has nothing to do with it. :blush: I think you get my point though... If Firaxis can't even fix that (to me that error is extremely annoying... maybe' its OCD, maybe it's the fact it was working fine in the first place and an uninstallable patch broke it), then what hope do we have of them fixing larger problems?

I remember once seeing a software dev write about how they prioritise fixing bugs. Something along the lines of a bug is either urgent or not (or somewhere in between), and easy or hard to fix (or somewhere in between). Bugs that are urgent (crashes) and bugs that are easy to fix (the one we're talking about) normally get priority don't they?
 
This should pretty much lay to rest all that "February patch is ripping off modders" nonsense, given that Thalassicus is probably the modder they're "ripping off" the hardest.
 
Might as well link to the real FIX that works, no?

It can't hurt, can it? ;) (though I'm not sure what your point is, with Thal already posting it ... to give credit to Perkus for finding it?)

I went and added the fix to the file in the untouchable area. I guess that's a bit pointless if I'm not playing the game, and it auto-updates soon anyway. Does Steam break down in tears if you make a game file read-only?
 
I've seen a few comments about the devs 'stealing' or 'poaching' ideas from modders lately, and just want to offer my thoughts.

So many companies are close-minded to what customers want, yet Firaxis, Blizzard, Mozilla, and others are supportive of their fanbase. These organizations have included much of the user-made third party development into their core program, or offered it through services like addons.mozilla.org. They know what people want - even if things aren't always perfect.

This trend should be increased, not discouraged. WoW's user interface has dramatically improved over the years thanks in large part to including many user-made addins. Dozens of mods in Civ 4 were added to the core game, even some modders were added to the core company for the final expansion. I'm thrilled whenever I see something added in a patch that might have been influenced by work I do.

Give fans the tools they need to create new content and run with it! There's thousands of people out there in the world willing to give it a try. We're still missing the c++ part of Civ 5's code, something that limits modding a lot.

More and more companies actively support third-party development beyond even providing the tools alone, to compensate for the thousands of hours of work involved and millions of downloads:

  • Apple has iTunes and the app store.
  • Blizzard has plans for ways top-notch mapmakers in StarCraft can make a living from their work.
  • Mozilla makes it easy for developers to set up voluntary donations.

    attachment.php


The cost of producing top-of-the-line computer games has skyrocketed in the past two decades. Games that used to be created by teams of five in 1990 now have teams of fifty or five hundred. Take the opportunity to provide third-party independent developers with the tools to improve the program, and fans will do lots of work for you. It makes customers happy and reduces costs for the company, a win-win! :goodjob:


.

Great post, and I fully support it. :)
 
Great to see you over here at cfc, Dale! :) Drop by more often.

Only if you promise not to infract me. :p

But you'll probably see more of me as A New World progresses so I can give updates on what's happening.
 
Only if you promise not to infract me. :p
Only if you promise not to leave me no choice. ;)
But you'll probably see more of me as A New World progresses so I can give updates on what's happening.
Sounds good. How's it coming along currently? Or too early to say?
 
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