SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

I can't compare what you're talking about without knowing where each variant is at and what each has built so far and teched so far. I fijnd it hard to believe PH is ahead in hammers though, unless you're not 2 or 3 popping. But im any case, for me it's not much about comparing two variants as finding a really good one.That is, each test should lead to a refinement, either in that variant or an alternative one.

Edit: For example, in my latest variant, I have 3E settled on T58, SIP granary done on T59 and on T60 3 turns from full with Sailing two-thirds done. 2 wbs done, no explorers. But I haven't really tried to optimze that. My first try at fishing-pottery-mng-bw-sailing. For the SIP variant to work best, I think, the poprushing has to begin asap, which I didn't attempt to do yet.

I don't view corn as our best food tile. It is our most food tile early on though. But you're right, the saves come out and we need to see what the warrior sees. I guess that should be whoever posted up "first."

Mitchum said:

Am I looking at the wrong test save? It appears to be at Normal speed rather than Epic... Also, Random Events have not been disabled.

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I'm not sure which saved game you are looking at, however I have been working from the saved game that babybluepants provided earlier in this thread. Here is a link to that message.

I checked the F8 screen's SETTINGS page and it appears that the following relevant settings were used: Epic Game Speed, No Random Events, and Emperor Difficulty Level. So, if you used the saved game that I linked, you should be good to go (but please double-check the F8 screen's SETTINGS page, in case I got confused about which saved game I actually downloaded).

Dhoomstriker said:

I'm not sure which saved game you are looking at, however I have been working from the saved game that babybluepants provided earlier in this thread. Here is a link to that message.

I checked the F8 screen's SETTINGS page and it appears that the following relevant settings were used: Epic Game Speed, No Random Events, and Emperor Difficulty Level. So, if you used the saved game that I linked, you should be good to go (but please double-check the F8 screen's SETTINGS page, in case I got confused about which saved game I actually downloaded).

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Thanks. For some reason, I had the wrong save. It must have been one I downloaded from the SGOTM-12 threads.

Will be out of town next two days. Have fun

I just ran a quick test for SIP, partial Barracks -> WB -> WB -> Settler. I ran the test to 2275 BC so that we could compare it to bbp's test that he posted earlier.

At 2275 BC, I have:

2 cities (Orleans settled 3E on T53)
4 work boats (first 3 for nets, last one out exploring on T63, which is much later than bbp's test)
1 worker (came late on T65)
26/90 on LH
16/75 on Galley
Fishing (T10) -> Mining (T20) -> BW (T39) -> Pottery (T49, but haven't built a granary yet...) -> Sailing (T63) -> Mysticism (in 1 turn - 104/117 )
8 gold
2 pops (I whipped a lot in both cities)

Orleans borrowed one clams tile from Paris, built the exploring WB and is currently building a galley, which it will whip ASAP to explore the nearby islands.
The plan was to have Paris grow while building the LH and then whip a settler for 2 pops, but I didn't play that far.

Compared to bbp's test, I'm ahead in research. I have all of Pottery on him (186 ) and both forests remain for chopping (bbp has one forest since he settled on the other one). I'm behind in city development (he has a ton of tiles improved in the capital) and growth (he has 4 pops in Paris compared to my 2 pops total). He's explored a lot more than me (no comparison, really), although I think we need to explore the surrounding islands a bit better before sending the work boats off; we need to know where to settle our off-island city, right?

That's a lot of beakers...
I'll see what I can do with PH-Worker to up early commerce. LH ahead of the 4th WB seems like a reasonable option. Pottery > Mysticism most likely, since there's no need for a monument this early.

Don't forget that Pottery has three prerequisite techs (or is it considered two with one mandatory tech?) and we know all three so it isn't quite as many base beakers as it appears.

Mitchum said:

Don't forget that Pottery has three prerequisite techs (or is it considered two with one mandatory tech?) and we know all three so it isn't quite as many base beakers as it appears.

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Pottery requires you to know one mandatory pre-requisite (The Wheel) and one optional pre-requisite (Agriculture OR Fishing), meaning that if you know both Agriculture and Fishing, you'll get an additional 20% discount on researching Pottery, on top of the "base 20% discount" that you get when researching any tech that isn't in the leftmost row of the first 7 techs.


Would it be reasonable to assume that we'll likely want to research Priesthood before Writing, both to unlock The Oracle early on and to give us a slight discount (the same +20% that we'd see on Pottery above) on researching Writing?

I don't see us trying to build a Library super-early, since we already need a lot of production just to get our Civ started (for example, a Galley just to get off of our "rock"), but then there is the chance of getting Foreign Intercontinental Trade Routes if we know both Sailing and Writing... I guess this decision will come later and for now we will just have some of the options written-down in text.

I think we'll need OB relatively early for TR's and explorer passage.

Who's going to move the warrior and post a screenshot?

I can do it in about an hour...

Go for it.

Nothing noteworthy...

Too bad. Can you tell if the tile 3N of corn is flat or hill by zooming in?

babybluepants said:

Too bad. Can you tell if the tile 3N of corn is flat or hill by zooming in?

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No, and I looked at it straight on and from 45° offset from both directions. Can you tell from this screen shot? I took screen shots from the 45° angles but they were 20 MB each.

If you want, I can upload the save if it would help. I don't know how to do the flying camera trick...

Try using the attached test saved game. It's the one that babybluepants provided but with a few minor terrain updates. I have also moved the Warrior in the same direction that you did. Further, I threw in a "TEST SAVE" sign, to make sure that you don't get confused which saved game you are looking at.

I have to admit, though, that I am slightly surprised that you did not follow this gem of advice:

kossin said:

So... does anyone want to start discussing the starting map or do we wait for the private threads this time around?

LowtherCastle said:

Sure! Let's discuss it. Warrior-1W <enter>.

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Anyway... I took a screenshot of the updated test saved game, but what we REALLY want is the exact same person to take an identically-positioned screenshot of each of the real game and the test game. For now, that means you, Mitchum.

Ideally, this way, the camera angle will be identical, the field of view will be identical, any graphics annomalies due to the way that you create your screenshots or that the upload process compresses them will be identical, etc.

What I suggest that you do is click on the Warrior and then press the "c" key, in order to centre the camera on the Warrior. That way, you'll get the exact same angle in both screenshots, so that the grid lines match up. If you're not used to the "c" key's centering functionality, then feel free to play around with it in the test saved game first.

If the two screenshots match up identically at the northern Coast, then I have correctly set up the land in the test saved game. If they look different, then we'll have to play around with changing the terrain up there in the test saved game... at this point you can put the real game aside, since you'll have your screenshot from it... we'll just make updates to the test game and then take screenshots of the updated land until we find a screenshot that matches identically.


It may be worth it for you to reduce the resolution of Civ 4 before taking the screenshots, for the duration of this exercise. Press Ctrl + O for game options -> Graphics tab -> the Screen Resolution can be changed at the top left of the screen. It'd put it at the smallest value (1024 x 768).

That way, your screenshots will be smaller in size and thus will be a bit more manageable.

Later in the game, we won't need screenshots to be so precise... you will be able to crop them in any-which-way. But for now, we want two images to be able to align to each other perfectly, and rather than asking you to crop the images perfectly, it's probably better for you to just begin with smaller image sizes.

I also have a freeware program that lets you convert .bmp images to .jpg images so that they are small enough to be uploaded, without CFC compressing your .jpgs to smaller sizes on your behalf... the CFC compression algorithm is rather lossy... drop me a Private Message if you want the program.

However, you should be able to visually compare the screenshots on your own computer even before you need to upload them, say by Alt + Tabbing between the two images that are opened in different windows... probably maximizing both images' windows will be the easiest way to align them to each other on your screen.


Here's a screenshot of the updated save, but it's rather hard to compare against Mitchum's since it wasn't taken under identical circumstances:

Another thought... let's say that there is no more land to the north, such that the only way to get two Cities on our landmass is by settling in-place.

In that case, is there anything that the Warrior could reveal to the north on Turn 1 that could want us to consider an alternate settling location? For example, if the Warrior were to reveal 7 Fish Resources in the hidden squares for a City settled on the Grassland Forest to the NE + N of the Settler's initial location, would we go for such a location?

Okay, yes, that idea sounds absolutely absurd, in that DynamicSpirit would receive a lot of complaints if he'd set the map up in this manner, but I figured that I'd point out the possibility, so that we won't have any regrets later.

Dhoomstriker said:

Ideally, this way, the camera angle will be identical, the field of view will be identical, any graphics annomalies due to the way that you create your screenshots or that the upload process compresses them will be identical, etc.

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Do you think this is necessary? By zooming in on the images, they look almost identical. As you know, often times when you add/remove/change tiles in WB, they look different than if they were naturally generated. So it seems like a lot of effort that will prove nothing concrete...

Mitchum said:

Do you think this is necessary? By zooming in on the images, they look almost identical.

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It really shouldn't take long to do...
Load one game, centre the screen on the Warrior, take a screenshot.
Load the other game, centre the screen on the Warrior, take a screenshot.

Since both screenshots will be taken one-after-another on the same computer, the camera angles and all of the other possible graphical differences will AUTOMATICALLY be the same as each other... you won't have to "play around" at all.


If you're going to be the one to visually compare them, say by Alt + Tabbing, then you won't even need to play with the game's screen resolution or bother with uploading images... we'll trust what you saw.

As you know, often times when you add/remove/change tiles in WB, they look different than if they were naturally generated.

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No, once you load a game that was altered in World Builder, any such graphical glitches due to changes made will disappear.

So, the two screenshots should turn out to be identical, with minor exceptions such as the "TEST GAME" sign and the Leader's name at the bottom right of the screen.

Either the screenshots are 100% identical along that northern Coast and I have World Built the test saved game correctly, or else they aren't identical and there is more land up there. It's going to be pretty straight-forward one way or another and the answer will be concrete.

Mitchum, how about just uploading the new save?