Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
SlightlyMad
Prince
When you say "can't" do you mean reproducibly, or that you just got unlucky once or twice? Because this sounds a lot like the old spearman vs. tank straw-man argument. It's definitely possible that the promotions are a little too much right now, but let's look at it objectively. One interesting thing I've noticed is that some players seem to have way more promotions than others. I'm pretty sure that this is because they massively expanded their armies late in the game, whereas some have very few promotions because they just upgraded units throughout the game along the way. If that's the case, then it's an interesting point, because the common sense of the game dictates that an upgraded unit should be stronger than a newly built one.
Txurce
Deity
Did I just get unlucky or is this reproducible? I wouldn't call that a straw-man argument - just a false dichotomy. Civ 5's combat sytem was supposed to eliminate the spearman vs tank argument, and this was stated explicitly by the devs. Combat results are generally accurately calculated, and anomalies on that scale never occur with healthy units. So if the game is not set on Random (and mine's not) the results should repeat. I have no idea whether I'll encounter it again, of course, because I don't have knights attack scouts very often. My point is that recently I have encountered a scout that can't be one-shotted by a knight in open terrain, lost a unit in what should have been "decisive victories," and faced brand-new cannons that fire like artillery. That's three different types of events that fall into the "very unlikely" category.
As I wrote earlier, I can learn to adjust to these promotions and even enjoy it. But it occasionally crosses a threshold that puts it in the WTF category for me, making me wonder if I've found a bug. At those points I have second thoughts about the scale of the buff.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
From the website:
00.0/era - Prince
02.5/era - King
05.0/era - Emperor
07.5/era - Immortal
10.0/era - Deity
I shifted away from the era multiplier to more of an up-front bonus because Ahriman felt the first option would be too easy in the early game:
00 + 0/era - Prince
03 + 2/era - King
06 + 4/era - Emperor
09 + 6/era - Immortal
12 + 8/era - Deity
If you believe the second option makes the early game too hard, I could go back to the first method, or somewhere between the two.
The reason for these bonuses is the AI isn't good at planning ahead. A smart human will build a bunch of XP structures in a military city long before a war and pump out units from there, so all new units will have high XP. If the AI needs units, it starts training them right away, even if the necessary XP buildings aren't constructed yet. The AI doesn't plan ahead for future wars as well as the human, nor guard experienced units effectively.
The goal is therefore to bring average AI unit experience up to about the same level as human unit experience. Higher than that in the case of the top two difficulty levels. I've intentionally been making the highest difficulties much harder, because if someone's already playing at the hardest difficulty and wants more of a challenge, there's nowhere up to go.
@Babri
I've actually been puzzled why I saw a lot of comments when Spain came out that the Spanish UUs are weak. Conquistadors are knights with a bonus against cities, extra sight range, and defensive strength when embarked... seems powerful to me!
00.0/era - Prince
02.5/era - King
05.0/era - Emperor
07.5/era - Immortal
10.0/era - Deity
I shifted away from the era multiplier to more of an up-front bonus because Ahriman felt the first option would be too easy in the early game:
00 + 0/era - Prince
03 + 2/era - King
06 + 4/era - Emperor
09 + 6/era - Immortal
12 + 8/era - Deity
If you believe the second option makes the early game too hard, I could go back to the first method, or somewhere between the two.
The reason for these bonuses is the AI isn't good at planning ahead. A smart human will build a bunch of XP structures in a military city long before a war and pump out units from there, so all new units will have high XP. If the AI needs units, it starts training them right away, even if the necessary XP buildings aren't constructed yet. The AI doesn't plan ahead for future wars as well as the human, nor guard experienced units effectively.
The goal is therefore to bring average AI unit experience up to about the same level as human unit experience. Higher than that in the case of the top two difficulty levels. I've intentionally been making the highest difficulties much harder, because if someone's already playing at the hardest difficulty and wants more of a challenge, there's nowhere up to go.
@Babri
I've actually been puzzled why I saw a lot of comments when Spain came out that the Spanish UUs are weak. Conquistadors are knights with a bonus against cities, extra sight range, and defensive strength when embarked... seems powerful to me!
Txurce
Deity
At first blush I would lean toward a version of the first curve, because one of the difficulties I've encountered with the second curve is being bum-rushed by warriors and cats on steroids vs my no-longer-effective archers. Basically it forces me to take my army seriously from the start unless I have no close neighbors and am not building too close to anyone.
But that's probably a good thing, and it's why I'm so torn by this. I like this sort of AI combat handicap. it's the extreme anomalies I've mentioned that bother me to some degree when they occur. I've focused on it knocking me out of the game experientially with its warp, and this is what I wish could be snipped out.
One alternative is to alter the Immortal curve (first curve or second) so it's closer to Emperor than it is to Deity. I say this because many of us (including Thal, I think) play on Immortal because Deity is not just hard, but outright distorted due to its extreme handicaps. Immortal has just enough of a link to the Prince-King-Emperor basic game. Does the curve we're using dovetail with the overall Emperor-Immortal-Deity scaling?
There have been a few responses to this, and some definitely don't agree with me. I'm very curious as to what everyone playing thinks about this. It's a very major change in game play, actually, and was never discussed after implementation.
But that's probably a good thing, and it's why I'm so torn by this. I like this sort of AI combat handicap. it's the extreme anomalies I've mentioned that bother me to some degree when they occur. I've focused on it knocking me out of the game experientially with its warp, and this is what I wish could be snipped out.
One alternative is to alter the Immortal curve (first curve or second) so it's closer to Emperor than it is to Deity. I say this because many of us (including Thal, I think) play on Immortal because Deity is not just hard, but outright distorted due to its extreme handicaps. Immortal has just enough of a link to the Prince-King-Emperor basic game. Does the curve we're using dovetail with the overall Emperor-Immortal-Deity scaling?
There have been a few responses to this, and some definitely don't agree with me. I'm very curious as to what everyone playing thinks about this. It's a very major change in game play, actually, and was never discussed after implementation.
SlightlyMad
Prince
It's a straw man argument because we're talking about giving units combat promotions, not making scouts competitive against knights. I personally haven't seen that behavior, but if it is indeed the case then there's no reason it wouldn't be possible in the vanilla game either. The issue here is only giving free promotions that are otherwise still available. Even if it made a scout able to kill a knight (or a spearman able to kill a tank), that would be because the core game mechanics allowed it, not because this mod enabled something special.
Like I said though, it's definitely possible that the free XP is too much. If my observations of it possibly too heavily favoring late-game built units heavily over early-game built units that have been upgraded, then one solution might be to increase the base XP bonus and decrease the per-era bonus. I need to playtest it more before I come to any conclusions though.
Txurce
Deity
Reproducible or unlucky was your question that I answered, which has little to do with your "straw man" reply. More to the point, this mod made something theoretically possible but essentially never seen in the AI vanilla game (scout survive knight, 3-range cannon, multiple repeating crossbows, decisive-victory losses) occur in my last three games. That's frequent enough for my focus to be squarely on the mod... regardless of whether or not it's a good thing.
I doubt pumping up the opening units further is the way to go. That's where the imbalance is largest at the higher levels, because the human player hasn't had a chance to out-tech or out-build the AI yet. In my games I tend to reach Infantry and definitely Mech Infantry ahead of the AI, so it's easier for me to handle fully-loaded riflemen, for example, or get a head start building a credible defense vs infantry.
SlightlyMad
Prince
Sorry, you obviously feel very passionate about this so I'm just going to back off.
Txurce
Deity
I'm interested in what you think about this, because it's a very notable part of the game, and you often have good insights. It's the "straw man" angle that felt a bit pejorative to me.
SlightlyMad
Prince
Sorry, I didn't mean it to come off that way. I was really just trying to say that we shouldn't focus on a single anecdote that's not really even related to the intent of the modification. I have yet to see anything like the behavior you describe with knights vs. scouts, and I've only seen maybe one or two crossbows with the double-shot promotion.
In the early eras, on Immortal, the bonus should really only be providing 1-2 free promotions beyond those granted by barracks and other militaristic buildings. I have noticed though that in the late eras some opponents have huge overflowing rows of icons floating above them, so in my experience I question that the bonuses in the late era might be excessive.
In the early eras, on Immortal, the bonus should really only be providing 1-2 free promotions beyond those granted by barracks and other militaristic buildings. I have noticed though that in the late eras some opponents have huge overflowing rows of icons floating above them, so in my experience I question that the bonuses in the late era might be excessive.
It’s okay for me if Scouts survive a Knight’s attack as long as they won’t easily kill it in return. That’s what these defensive promotion bonuses for Scouts in TBC are made for.
It was mentioned that the AI doesn’t build XP-buildings ahead, hence the many inexperienced units. Is it not possible to teach the AI that?
In my current 400+ turn game, I haven’t seen single XP-building in the conquered cities so far that are even older than most of mine. And then in the end, I am the victor again because I was so busy improving my cities and mass-producing experienced units.
Even my newly founded cities get quickly four times the number of buildings of what the AI has.
No idea much about all these AI possibilities yet, but maybe every AI-Civ should be given more emphasis to buildings in general. At least a Barrack and an Armory here and there could make a difference.
It hurts to see an AI with thousands of gold cash but loosing so terribly because it has no chance with inexperienced troops.
There is one issue that I don’t like at all at this promotion system in CiV: promotions for Open and Rough terrain.
Does the AI actually know what these promotions are good for? Does it know that three same Open/Rough promotions open door for the most powerful promotions, like Blitz and March? Or is it rather dumb and just rolls a dice and picks whatever promotion comes up? It looks that way.
What about moving decisions? Does the AI actually know where to park its units best?
To help the AI giving the right promotions and making moving decisions, I’m all for changing the Open/Rough to Offense/Defense type, giving bonuses on attack or defense.
The next step would be to provide assault units like cavalry/tanks only offensive promotions, so the AI won’t make any mistakes increasing their power effectively. Counter units, like Pikeman and Anti-Tank Gun, could only gain defensive promotions.
Even if units could get both offense and defensive promotions, none of them would be totally useless if you or the AI places its units on wrong terrain.
Edit: Something that would possibly even work better than my idea above is turning these open/rough terrain bonuses to three plain combat strength/ranged combat increases no matter where units are placed or if units attack or defend. It's a simple combat experience bonus that makes every unit type more effective whatever it does. The AI can't really do anything wrong then when it promotes its units.
I feel it's so silly to imagine that my crack elite troops with Drill 3 who have seen battle hundred times before just got pawned by newb units because they were currently on plains.
Hello plausibility?
It was mentioned that the AI doesn’t build XP-buildings ahead, hence the many inexperienced units. Is it not possible to teach the AI that?
In my current 400+ turn game, I haven’t seen single XP-building in the conquered cities so far that are even older than most of mine. And then in the end, I am the victor again because I was so busy improving my cities and mass-producing experienced units.
Even my newly founded cities get quickly four times the number of buildings of what the AI has.
No idea much about all these AI possibilities yet, but maybe every AI-Civ should be given more emphasis to buildings in general. At least a Barrack and an Armory here and there could make a difference.
It hurts to see an AI with thousands of gold cash but loosing so terribly because it has no chance with inexperienced troops.
There is one issue that I don’t like at all at this promotion system in CiV: promotions for Open and Rough terrain.
Does the AI actually know what these promotions are good for? Does it know that three same Open/Rough promotions open door for the most powerful promotions, like Blitz and March? Or is it rather dumb and just rolls a dice and picks whatever promotion comes up? It looks that way.
What about moving decisions? Does the AI actually know where to park its units best?
To help the AI giving the right promotions and making moving decisions, I’m all for changing the Open/Rough to Offense/Defense type, giving bonuses on attack or defense.
The next step would be to provide assault units like cavalry/tanks only offensive promotions, so the AI won’t make any mistakes increasing their power effectively. Counter units, like Pikeman and Anti-Tank Gun, could only gain defensive promotions.
Even if units could get both offense and defensive promotions, none of them would be totally useless if you or the AI places its units on wrong terrain.
Edit: Something that would possibly even work better than my idea above is turning these open/rough terrain bonuses to three plain combat strength/ranged combat increases no matter where units are placed or if units attack or defend. It's a simple combat experience bonus that makes every unit type more effective whatever it does. The AI can't really do anything wrong then when it promotes its units.
I feel it's so silly to imagine that my crack elite troops with Drill 3 who have seen battle hundred times before just got pawned by newb units because they were currently on plains.
Hello plausibility?
SlightlyMad
Prince
I'd be very much in favor of replacing the open/rough terrain bonuses with just combat 1/2/3 like Civ4 had. As it stands now, there's very little reason to ever take the open terrain bonuses, because rough terrain is always going to be better for defense, and since you get an open terrain attack bonus anyways, it's better to take the rough terrain so you can have a chance at taking out units on hills.
I'll admit I still don't like Civ 5's promotion system. I like the combat much better, but I much preferred Civ IV (counter unit) type system.
I haven't played Civilization 4 so far. Just checked the tables here on Fanatics.
Yes, it has interesting features like First Strike Chance, Collateral Damage, and the mentioned many more units with bonus vs specific unit types. The general combat bonus promotions have even 6 ranks.
Maybe a few promotion types can be ported to CiV. Let's see.
What I like is restricting the promotions, except Medic, at beginning so every unit gets the same combat bonuses, like "Combat I/II/III" in C4. Afterwards, you can specialize to Siege, Amphibious, vs Armor, etc.
This looks a bit dull but helps the AI a lot to develop quickly equally strong units than the human player. It will only lack the smartness how it should specialize later, but that's only a matter of level 5+ units then what it hardly ever got so far anyway.
It only has to build a Barrack, Armory, Academy, etc. more often somehow.
Yes, it has interesting features like First Strike Chance, Collateral Damage, and the mentioned many more units with bonus vs specific unit types. The general combat bonus promotions have even 6 ranks.
Maybe a few promotion types can be ported to CiV. Let's see.
What I like is restricting the promotions, except Medic, at beginning so every unit gets the same combat bonuses, like "Combat I/II/III" in C4. Afterwards, you can specialize to Siege, Amphibious, vs Armor, etc.
This looks a bit dull but helps the AI a lot to develop quickly equally strong units than the human player. It will only lack the smartness how it should specialize later, but that's only a matter of level 5+ units then what it hardly ever got so far anyway.
It only has to build a Barrack, Armory, Academy, etc. more often somehow.
Txurce
Deity
It does look dull, eliminating all the differentiation that Civ 5 units have been given. In effect, we have three different types of unit - foot, mounted, and range - with varying strengths of one type or another.
I don't know what level you play on, but on Immortal the AI consistently promotes its units for rough terrain, and therefore eventually winds up with March or Blitz. Isn't this what you want the AI to do? As a result, I often promote in the opposite direction with mounted units, knowing that I will eventually catch the enemy on the wrong turf. That's part of what's fun about different units, different bonuses, and different promotions.
orangecape
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2010
- Messages
- 89
Mentos, the reason you never see XP buildings in cities you capture is that they are automatically destroyed. This is true for National Wonders, all culture buildings, all XP buildings and a few others I think. You only see food/production/money/science/happy buildings when you capture because those ones have a chance to be destroyed instead of automatically being blown up like culture/NW/XP.
There is a perception that the AI cheats incredibly because it has good culture/XP without buildings and it is largely based around not knowing that those buildings are automatically destroyed on city capture so in order to know if they were there you have to use techniques other than just 'play the game'. There are mods that let you see that sort of thing - I use Have Fun personally for messing with or checking out the AI during my games.
There is a perception that the AI cheats incredibly because it has good culture/XP without buildings and it is largely based around not knowing that those buildings are automatically destroyed on city capture so in order to know if they were there you have to use techniques other than just 'play the game'. There are mods that let you see that sort of thing - I use Have Fun personally for messing with or checking out the AI during my games.
Okay, blowing up strategical important buildings makes sense.
I tend to play on a (maybe) equalized Prince diff to watch how the AI behaves without any buffs and so - and how terrible I am compared to it too...
The "Have Fun !" tool is great for studying the AI. Thanksalot!
I tend to play on a (maybe) equalized Prince diff to watch how the AI behaves without any buffs and so - and how terrible I am compared to it too...
The "Have Fun !" tool is great for studying the AI. Thanksalot!
Are you planning on reviewing naval units?
There are too few of them: by the time I get frigates, the trireme is completely obsolete compared to city defense (because I cannot upgrade them to caravels). Same with destroyer and frigate a bit later. And the fact that the ironclad cannot cross ocean tiles is a bit ridiculous: it is either blocked near your coast or takes forever to go where it would be useful.
I really think we need a ship for medieval era (Galley?) unlocked with Compass (and maybe something else) and another one instead ironclad that can actually cross oceans and arrives a bit sooner.
A more conservative solution would be to fasten access to caravel and ironclad.
What is your opinion?
QDI
There are too few of them: by the time I get frigates, the trireme is completely obsolete compared to city defense (because I cannot upgrade them to caravels). Same with destroyer and frigate a bit later. And the fact that the ironclad cannot cross ocean tiles is a bit ridiculous: it is either blocked near your coast or takes forever to go where it would be useful.
I really think we need a ship for medieval era (Galley?) unlocked with Compass (and maybe something else) and another one instead ironclad that can actually cross oceans and arrives a bit sooner.
A more conservative solution would be to fasten access to caravel and ironclad.
What is your opinion?
QDI
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Actually, if you open the tuner's Game tab, select an AI and click "autoplay 1" you can see all their cities, units, etc and even control them -- no mods necessary.
I'm not going to do fundamental redesigns of promotions, that's beyond the scope of this mod.
On my long-term todo list is to introduce a new Frigate-era capital ship, and some other naval work. I've been on a semi-break from modding the past few weeks so it'll be a while before I get around to major tasks like that.
I'm not going to do fundamental redesigns of promotions, that's beyond the scope of this mod.
On my long-term todo list is to introduce a new Frigate-era capital ship, and some other naval work. I've been on a semi-break from modding the past few weeks so it'll be a while before I get around to major tasks like that.
