SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

Actually, the PPP is turning out to be pretty close. Paris has the main changes:

lh-set3-wkr2(OF)-wb-set4-wkr2-monu

That's putting Marble a turn later and Stone a bit sooner. Not sure there's anything else of significance before the Oracle is completed.

One optimization I haven't dealt with is after 1popping the granary in GOld and growing back to pop2, how many turns to work the gold versus the clams. Originally, I grew staright back to pop3, then worked the gold. In this test, I worked the gold for 2t, then the clams for 3. Gets PH on time. But writing is borderline to 1t late for the lh 1pop in GOld, so I have to build a warrior for a turn. NOt sure if there's anything there.

LowtherCastle said:

I would also assume they're going for a Machinery slingshot, although Philo is possible

Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about it too much. The idea of a Philosophy slingshot is "pretty far out there" in terms of ideas... it's rare for people to think of beelinine a Religious tech (outside of Christianity for the Apostolic Palace) in a high-difficulty game. Grabbing Machinery means that they will not be getting Philosophy anytime soon.

We have a good plan, so I don't think that we're going to be behind even if they do slingshot an expensive tech.

The Colossus is a Trojan Horse here. Look how far we've already explored without having met any AI culture....

Click to expand...

What's more is that the Copper island might actually make for a decent Moai Statues location... Grassland Copper is Food-neutral, giving us 2 Food + 4 Hammers. That's 5 Hammers per turn, and Moai costs 375 Hammers. With Stone, that's 375 / 10 = a maximum of 38 turns, with less turns if we whip another build item or two into Moai.

Unlike Paris, where we can use the Food to whip a lot and the non-Food-neutral Mines to convert some Food into production, the Copper City had Food-neutral additional production, lots of Coastal squares, no other good squares to work, but not enough Food to seriously consider running Specialists.

All of our other planned Cities either have 2 Food or more sources, making them better-suited to running Specialists, or are the Fur City, which would work 2 land-based Fur squares that would further reduce it's Crab's Food.


My point being that skipping The Colossus means that we can settle Copper City adjacent to the Copper for 11 Coastal squares (all 3 locations on that island that aren't on top of the Copper will give us that many Coastal squares, plus additional Ocean squares), which could make for a pretty decent Moai location.

Paris, which works at least 3 land squares, could even work 5 land squares without worrying about Food concerns.

Copper City, however, would limit its already low Food (well, a single Magical Fish is not that bad) if it were to work Workshops, but it would be fine for working Food-neutral Coastal squares and a Food-neutral Copper square.


Then, we wouldn't feel bad about whipping Paris or wanting to run Specailsits in Paris, since we wouldn't have the trade-off of "taking away" from working Moai-enhanced Coastal squares.

What's our current target date for our first Great Scientist again? I mean, in trying to run different Gold City build orders, what date am I trying to at least meet, if not beat?

Click to expand...

If we get Confunicism it's date is irrelevant provided it happens before we are ready to revolt to CS, otherwise we can't get it soon enough.

By whipping the Granary, the Ligththouse, the Monument, and finally the Library

Now, what's neat is that we will have 39 Whipping Unhappiness, meaning that at City Size 4 while having just enough Happiness to have 4 citizens, we can hire 2 Scientists and "forget about Gold City" until the Great Scientist pops. We will thus work the Fish, the Gold, and 2 Scientists while stagnating growth.

Click to expand...

Do we really need to whip so much? The lighthouse can be built normally quick enough, and with the Pyramids a monument is optional (and we should be able to build it normally if need be). I think the gold tile is important enough we would want to work it continually. We could do 2 pop whips at size 4 on the granary and library to get them built allowing us to work fish+gold continually. If we go for COL after metal casting our chances of losing Confunicism should be low enough for a delay in the GS not to matter. Remember we need this city to be at size 9 by around 500-400BC, so we will need to get a lot of growth done there which we can't do if we are stagnating at size 4.

I would like to play this weekend, any turns I'm going to play. My feeling is that we've pretty well played out the testing, with the exception of the details I mentioned to Dhoom above. Can we wrap this discussion up?

The PPP would be as previously posted, with some minor changes, such as building the Paris lh before set3, building a lh in Paris, but not the Pigs wb, etc.

I'm fine with you playing but we should at least wait to hear if Dhoomstriker is testing the last bit or if he's fini (little French for you, Ras... wherever you are. )

I'm currently exhausted and not done my current effort and will need a nice long sleep before I can continue. It's your call as to whether you want to play on or wait another day.

If you do decide to play forwards, just remember to switch to Mysticism before ending the turn!

I'm fine with you playing too.

Okay, so one reasonable option with Gold City is to avoid whipping the Granary. That way, whipping anger will subside after, since we'll only need to whip 2 buildings: the Lighthouse and the Library.

It works as follows:
1. Let Gold City keep working the Fish + Gold for maximum Commerce

2. When we grow to Size 3, the Clam will already be netted, so we will simply work the Fish, Gold, and Clam (without the Lighthouse's bonus Food yet)

3. Let the Granary be manually-completed when we have about a 60% full Food box

4. Build a Lighthouse next

5. When the City is about to grow to Size 3, on Turn 101, 1475 BC, we will whip the Lighthouse

6. On this turn, after having whipped to Size 2, we will work the Fish plus the Clam, getting us a ton more Food into our Granary for the start of Size 3. Specifically, if we were to just work the Fish + Gold on this turn, we would start at Size 3 with 17/39 Food in our Foodbox. However, by working the Fish + Clam on this turn, we will start at Size 3 with 25/39 Food in our Foodbox. That means that we gain 8 Food for the cost of working the Clam instead of the Gold, which means that we will "not gain" 3 Hammers and 5 Commerce. That's a pretty even-sounding trade, except that we said that we wanted to grow this City, so the Food is probably slightly more valuable at this point. In fact, this extra Food lets us grow from Size 3 to Size 4 two turns faster, which equates to 2 extra turns working a Coast square, meaning that we gain 4 extra Commerce. Thus, we will gain 8 Food for a cost of 3 Hammers and 1 Commerce, a very good deal.

7. We should have Writing with this approach on Turn 102, 1450 BC. I got Writing without even micromanaging the Science Slider. That means that we will be able to overflow the few Hammers that we received into a Library immediately.

8. On Turn 108, 1300 BC, we will grow into Unhappiness. This fact means that we will want to get a Warrior built in Paris to ship over to here. My recommendation is to overflow the Hammers from 3-pop-rushing Settler 3 on Turn 80 into a Warrior, rather than into Worker 2. Doing so will later mean 1 turn of manually building Worker 2 before we whip Settler 4 for maximum overflow Hammers into Worker 2, getting Worker 2 and Settler 4 out 1 turn later than if we were to have captured both Settler 3's and Settler 4's Hammers into Worker 2. However, we'll have regrown to Sizes 4, 5, and 6 from after having not overflowed Settler 3's Hammers into a stagnating-build-item (i.e. no longer overflowing the Hammers into Worker 2), so we don't lose a full turn worth here but gain back a fraction of it.

9. Now here's where we need to make a decision point. Assuming that you are cool with building that Warrior in Paris and shipping it over, then we will grow to Size 6 on Turn 111, 1225 BC. On this turn, the Library will go from being a 3-pop-whip to a 2-pop-whip. We have a decision to make: on Turn 110, 1250 BC, we can put 1 turn worth of Hammers into a Monument. Actually, we could do so for a couple of turns, starting a couple of turns earlier, if you're afraid that you'll forget this bit of micro. In so doing, when we grow to Size 6 on Turn 111, 1225 BC, the Library will still be a 3-pop-whip. Having a 2-pop-whip lets us be at Size 4, which allows us to immediately hire 2 Scientists. Having a 3-pop-whip lets us be at Size 3 but with an extra Happines from a free Monument that we can grow into.

Getting a free Monument is very tempting, since our goal is to grow Gold City while also working on getting a Great Scientist. It does mean delaying on STARTING the hiring of our Scientist Specialists, but it also makes it FELL that we will be able to grow that much faster.

However, 2-pop-whipping the Library on the turn that we grow to Size 6 works out a WHOLE LOT BETTER. On the next turn, Turn 112, 1200 BC, we can immediately hire 1 Scientist for 2 turns, then we must stagnate growth for 1 turn while hiring 2 Scientists, to avoid growing into Unhappiness. However, on the following turn, we go back to working 1 Scientist and will GROW INTO HAPPINESS at City Size 5. This fact means that we will be able to work the Fish + Clam + Gold + 2 Scientists. In so doing, we can then immediately hire the 2nd Scientist on Turn 116, 1100 BC. These 2 Scientists can stay there PERMANENTLY.

In fact, by manually buiding the Monument, it will complete in 6 more turns, while we will grow to Size 6 in 7 more turns, meaning no Unhappiness and thus no need to rush the Monument.

By the time that we grow to Size 7, our Whipping Unhappiness will remain for 1 turn and then we will be Happy again at Size 7, allowing us to keep growing. That's assuming that we do not build a Work Boat for Gold City's 2nd Clam... getting a Work Boat for that second Clam just means that we will grow into Unhappiness earlier. As a result, we do not have any pressure to get a Work Boat built for that Clam anytime soon.


So, the keys to this approach are:
-2. On Turn 80, 2000 BC, we will 3-pop-whip Settler 3
EDIT: No, we will build Warrior 2 later instead of following this step: -1. On Turn 81, 1975 BC, we will overflow the Hammers into Warrior 2 instead of Worker 2
0. I haven't worked out the logistics yet, but we will need to shuttle Warrior 2 to Gold City from Paris by Turn 108, 1300 BC. That amount of time should be plenty to be able to do so... I just need to put in some time to figure out when will be best to do so.
1. At City Size 2, we will work the Fish + the Gold
2. When the Clam gets Netted, which I think happens on Turn 92, 1700 BC (I'm not certain since I forget if I started from a "Turn 80 3-pop-whip in Paris" scenario), do not let the City Governor automatically switch the Gold to the Clam; we will keep working the Fish + the Gold
3. At City Size 3, which occurs on Turn 94, 1650 BC, while still building a Granary, we will simply work the Fish + Gold + Clam (it should happen automatically with or without the City Governor in use)
4. On Turn 99, 1525 BC, we will complete the Granary manually and will being to build a Lighthouse next.
5. On Turn 101, 1475 BC, we will need to remember to whip the Lighthouse.
6. On Turn 101, 1475 BC, we will work the Fish + the Clam (the Gold citizen should automatically have been whipped away for you)
7. On Turn 102, 1450 BC, we will have learned Writing and will start building a Library.
8. On Turn 104, 1400 BC, we will grow to City Size 4 and will add a Coast to the squares that we are working
9. On Turn 108, 1300 BC, we will grow to City Size 5. Assuming that we got the Paris-built Warrior 2 here by now, we will work yet another Coast square
10. On Turn 111, 1225 BC, we will grow to City Size 6 and will 2-pop-whip the Library. We will still be working the Fish, Gold, Clam, and a Coast
11. On Turn 112, 1200 BC, we will have completed the Library and will start work on a Monument, having 5 overflow Hammers going into it
12. Also, on Turn 112, 1200 BC, we will switch the Coast square to a Scientist Specialist, such that we will be working Fish, Gold, Clam, and 1 Scientist
13. On Turn 114, 1150 BC, we will switch the Clam square to a 2nd Scientist Specialist, such that we will be working Fish, Gold, and 2 Scientists
14. On Turn 115, 1125 BC, we will fire 1 Scientist and work the Clam, such that we will be working Fish, Gold, Clam, and 1 Scientist
15. On Turn 116, 1100 BC, after having grown to City Size 5, we will switch the newly-worked Coast to a the 2nd Scientist, such that weill we be working Fish, Gold, Clam, and 2 Scientists. From here, our City will continue to grow while simultanously working the Gold and growing a Great Scientist as soon as possible


This approach is reasonably micro-management intensive but it gives better results than what we see in the PPP: Writing comes faster, our Great Scientist still comes out on Turn 139, 525 BC, and our City will still be growing while working the Gold and generating a Great Scientist. Okay, that's not MUCH better than the PPP, except that we get slightly more research, which is still a noteworthy thing since we are currently concerned about not being the first to Code of Laws.

I'll still have to figure out the logistics of shuttling over the Warrior from Paris, though.

One point that I was not sure about was:
When trying to figure out whether or not Vicky knows a tech such as Masonry, do we need to spend 1 turn researching the tech to find out, or can we find out before investing any research into said tech?

If she knows one of those techs but not both of them, then we should obviously start researching the tech that she knows.

What I can probably do next is see if I can optimize Science Slider rates assuming that she knows both Meditation and Masonry but not Priesthood, but then we might need to pause play when we get to starting research on one of those first two techs if it turns out that she doesn't know said tech, so that the Science Slider values can be recalculated.

Or, we could just say "to heck with it."

Hmmm, I was trying to see if we could get Warrior 2 built really early... we can... and it can get onto the Galley at the same time as Settler 3 gets onto Galley 1... but then we are 3 Hammers short on building the Work Boat for Gold City's Clam. Sigh.

Sooooo close... Oh well, back to the drawing board of getting Warrior 2 out later and seeing if we can shuttle it to Gold City in time. I suppose that the third alternative is just to spend 1 turn of manually completing Gold City's Work Boat before starting on Settler 4, but doing so would delay Settler 4 and Worker 2 by one turn, so I'd rather not do so if I can get the Warrior transported to Gold City a bit later than "right away."

Anyway, I have Science Slider rates optimized for the turns that we will be researching Mysticism and Masonry, assuming that Vicky knows Masonry (or that she will know it by the time that we learn Mysticism). There's a lot of Science Slider micro involved, but the math works out elegantly so far. We'll see how much our mathematical luck will last through Meditation. Of course, I'm not sure whether to pretend that Vicky will know Mediation or will not know it for the calculations. Guessing wrong will invalidate the calculations.

Using the chart I linked, we can discern that VIckie has AH but not masonry. Btw, Dhoom, I forgot to mention that when using the chart you need to subtract culture and espionage, and add negative spending from the Demo GNP value to make it correspond to bpt, as shown in the chart. For example, if you take the current save and set the research slider to 100%, it will be at -1g. Set the research to AH and the GNP figure in the Demo screen will be 22. That's cacluated like this:
bpt: 13
base b: 1
Vickie + prereq: 3
epps: 4
culture: 2
gold: -1
---------
total: 22

For masonry, we get: 21. THus, VIckie doesn't know it. So before you can use the chart, you need to take the GNP figure: 22 and subtract epps (4) and culture (2) and add any negative gold (-1). For AH this would give you 17. Then on the chart for a 1-prereq tech, you locate our base beaker (13) and move over till you find 17. Above tells you how many Ais have the tech (1).

--------------

HIghly doubtful VIckie will learn masonry and meditation befroe we do.

LowtherCastle said:

Using the chart I linked, we can discern that VIckie has AH but not masonry. Btw, Dhoom, I forgot to mention that when using the chart you need to subtract culture and espionage, and add negative spending from the Demo GNP value to make it correspond to bpt, as shown in the chart. For example, if you take the current save and set the research slider to 100%, it will be at -1g. Set the research to AH and the GNP figure in the Demo screen will be 22. That's cacluated like this:
bpt: 13
base b: 1
Vickie + prereq: 3
epps: 4
culture: 2
gold: -1
---------
total: 22

Click to expand...

Okay, if I understand things correctly, then the spreadsheet's "Base bpt" value DOES NOT include the "base b" value that you mentioned above, but the values in the "# of AIs with the technology" columns DO include the the "base b" value that you mentioned above. Am I right?


Also, I imagine that until we learn Mysticism, we can't know whether or not Vicky has researched Meditation, since the "Base bpt" value of 13 in the "TechBonus=1.0" chart has an equivalent "# of AIs with the technology" value for 0 AIs and 1 AI knowing the tech. Does that again sound right?

HIghly doubtful VIckie will learn masonry and meditation befroe we do.

Click to expand...

Okay, that's too bad, but I'll go under the assumption that she won't know either and will provide appropriate Science Slider values.


Right now, I'm trying to see what the difference will be between overflowing Settler 3's Hammers into Worker 2 versus not doing so.

Dhoom, I'm working on optimizing the Gold LIbrary, if you want on work on the slider. I really don't see any reason to build anything extra in Paris--just slows down the Pyramids. The sooner we can revolt to Rep the better. As it is, we'll be starting to woory about barb galleys and I'd like to be able to shift procuction gears at that time, if needed.

YOu understand the chart right. The left-hand column is what you see as our bpt in parentheses next to the reserach slider. The body of the chart represents actual final-bpt.

Okay, I'm not changing my PPP in GOld. It's the best balance of getting the GA reasonably fast and getting CoL asap.

Once you give me your research slider calcs, Dhoom, I'm ready to go.

I finished comparing different scenarios for what to do with Settler 3's overflow.

Here are the choices:
x) Settler 3 overflows into Gold City's Work Boat; When we grow to Size 6 before pop-whipping Settler 4, we will build Worker 2 for 1 turn

y) Settler 3 overflows into Worker 2 for 1 turn; When we grow to Size 6 we will work Settler 4 for 1 turn but will not need to build Worker 2 for any turns prior to 3-pop-whipping Settler 4

z) Settler 3 overflows into Gold City's Work Boat; When we grow to Size 6 before pop-whipping Settler 4, we will build Worker 2 for 2 turns

Here are the results for Turn 96, 1600 BC:
x) Paris is Size 4 with 26/42 Food and will grow in 2 turns, it has completed Warrior 2, and has 5 extra Hammers (for a Monument?), Stone City has 2 Food, 8 Hammers, I will say that our Commerce = 0 relative to other scenarios

y) Paris is Size 4 with 36/42 Food and will grow in 1 turn, it has 15/22 Hammers in Warrior and will just complete Warrior 2 in time to move Worker 1 from the NE Chop to the SW Chop of Marble City, Stone City has 2 Food, 8 Hammers, and our Commerce is 0 (identical to scenario x)

z) Paris is Size 4 with 26/42 Food and will grow in 2 turns, it has completed Warrior 2, and has 9 extra Hammers (for a Monument?), Stone City has 1 Food, 4 Hammers, and we have 5 more Commerce (+1 Commerce while building Worker 2 for 1 turn longer while working a Coast at Size 6 minus the Maintenance, then 4 less Maintenance for settling Stone City 1 turn later)

Additional results:
x) Turn 94 = Stone City is founded
Turn 94 = Worker 2 exists

y) Turn 94 = Stone City is founded
Turn 93 = Worker 2 exists

z) Turn 95 = Stone City is founded
Turn 94 = Worker 2 exists

So, we can say that scenario y) gets 1 more Worker turn, which we can claim is worth +2 Hammers for the Quarry, but probably not any savings on getting the Pig up, so that's probably all that it is worth.

Getting Stone City up sooner gives the City +1 Food, +4 Hammers, but -4 Maintenance


Summary of the total of the values:
x) 1 Food, 12 Hammers, 0 Commerce
y) 11 Food, 2 Hammers, 0 Commerce
z) 0 Food, 12 Hammers, 5 Commerce

Additional notes:
Now, it should be noted that Scenario z) has equal Hammers to Scenario x) but 4 of those Hammers are in Paris in Scenario z) while those 4 Hammers are in Stone City in Scenario x).

Also, Scenario y) has 2 Hammers that I "gave it" for getting the Quarry up sooner.

Further, 4 of the 5 Commerce for Scenario z) are simply Maintenance Costs saved by settling Stone City 1 turn later.


I'm not sure which is better... I guess it really depends upon how much we'd rather have Hammers versus Food in Paris. The earlier Worker for Scenario y) has already been calculated into the numbers, assuming that we won't benefit from hooking-up the Stone 1 turn earlier--the PPP does not have us completing Worker 2 until Turn 96, 2 to 3 turns later than the above Scenarios, so we might not need Stone hooked-up 3 turns in advance of the PPP. The difference between Scenarios x) and z) is mostly about shifting one turn worth of production from Paris to Stone City, with a minor impact on Commerce.

So, which approach do you want to go with?

Dude, there are like so many changes to the PPP it's crazy. The only way that I've been able to keep track is to update the PPP myself as I go along. So, I guess that soon you'll want to play, so I'll shortly give you what I've got for an updated PPP.

What I did was create a second column to indicate changes from the original values and then use yellow highlighting for lines where I did something different... a cell without any text but a yellow background means that I changed from doing something to doing nothing on that turn for that particular City/Worker/Research Slider, etc.

I'm thinking that there's no point in doing the whole PPP, since you'll probably end up pausing anyway. I'm only up to about Priesthood now but I'll stop shortly thereafter, with the thinking that you'll probably only play as far as I go or maybe not even that far, especially if we find anything interesting, like meeting a new AI or spotting a new settling location (another Gold, perhaps?).

One possible snag is that by building Warrior 2 before Paris' Monument, we'll have 1 turn of Unhappiness at City Size 6 before the Monument can be completed... so, despite what is written here, it may be worth delaying Warrior 2 until after the Monument is completed... but then I haven't tested far enough to see if we can actually get Warrior 2 to Gold City in time.

Anyway, I only played as far as Turn 98, 1550 BC.

So, most of the Gold City optimizations have yet to make it into this copy of the PPP.

And, it might make sense to get the Monument in Paris before Warrior 2 if we can still get Warrior 2 to Gold City on time... I guess it's really only a cost of 2 Food + 2 Commerce for 1 turn by growing into Unhappiness and not being able to work a Coast in Paris... but, it's also probably worth stopping at the time that we're ready to build Warrior 2, so that we'll have time to see if building the Monument before Warrior 2 will still work for getting Warrior 2 to Gold City on time.

Both .xls and .ods formats are included in the file. Actually, I used a file conversion web site but I now wonder if I could have just done a "File -> Save As..." and saved as an .ods file... something to look into.

LowtherCastle said:

Okay, I'm not changing my PPP in GOld. It's the best balance of getting the GA reasonably fast and getting CoL asap.

Click to expand...

Really? I thought that I had shown a way to improve upon what Gold City was doing.

Rather than stopping work on the Gold square for several turns, my suggestion had us working the Gold square, starting from when we grow to Size 2, for every turn during your turnset except for one turn when we grow after having built the Granary. Working the Gold square this much improves our Research rate, without altering the timing of our Great Scientist, while still allowing us to simultanously grow our City, and also getting rid of our Whipping Unhappiness within a very reasonable timeframe.

The only "cost" is building a Warrior in Paris, since I was asked (by mdy) to try whipping a lot less in Gold City, as well as to grow the City, and to work the Gold square as much as possible. I simply used my earlier suggestion of "work the Fish + Gold instead of the Fish + Clam, since we don't have an early Lighthouse," which did the trick. I guess that I'll have to keep playing and continue updating the PPP, just so that opting for this suggestion becomes easy enough of an option for you to consider following.

I mean, it was you who asked me to optimize the build order for Gold City...

Okay, I noticed that from my message #956, by following one of the "0 Commerce" Scenarios, that is, Scenario x), but the same situation would apply to Scenario y), that we are EXTREMELY tight on Commerce. Like, virtually no room for error in the Science Slider changes.

As a result, I think that I'm going to switch things up in favour of Scenario z).

If I don't do so, then something else has to give way: for example, we could work a Coast instead of a GH Mine in Paris... but even then, the Science Sliders are super tight and I have to lose a bit of efficiency due to their tightness.

That's the price that you pay for being "too efficient" in settling a City (Stone City) earlier than planned--Research suffers. So, to give us a bit of breathing room, I switch things up to follow Scenario z), since it does give the best overall total Food + Hammers + Commerce and in particular, it gives the most Commerce at a time where we are desperate for said Commerce.

Following Scenario z) means that we likely won't have to lose a couple of Flasks due to inefficient Science Slider usage just before Writing comes in, as I am finding is required for the other two Scenarios.