MAd's World Game SUmmary

Welcome folks to a new series by your's truely. AT one point during the NExt Generation RPCs I played a self-made mod which basically altered all the traits to my satisfaction and a few UUs. I have decided to try running a new series off this Mod and perhaps tie into the Classic RPC games and see where it goes. There will be no set rules for a particular game but we will play it as we go.

This is a recreational thing for me and I do not profess to being any sort of real modder, I simply came up with enough changes where I felt the game was somewhat refreshing. Nor do I claim it is harder/easier/more exciting, it is merelt different. I am open for advice on changing things as we go along, we have 52 leaders to repeat!

CHanges are listed below

Ballista Elephant: A Normal War Elephant that is resourcelss (Yes Khmerian elephants appear like magic, just like camles)
Bowmen: +25% versus melee but start with Shock, thus the shock is retained upon promotion.
Camel Archer: now 20% withdrawl (They ar emagical afetrall!)
Hwacha: No longer have a bonus versus melee but they can kill units outright (Ah, the Vanilla/warlords days!)
Muskateer: 10 strength muskets but 1 movement
Numidean Archer: 6 strength, +25% versus melee, free flanking I
Panzer: 3 movement
Phalanx: Still +100% versus chariots but they do start with the formation promotion.

OK, let's talk traits!

FINANCIAL
+1 commerce/3 Commerce tiles (thus no bonus for sea tiles unless you build the colossus)
Double production of Banks (classic Vanilla) and Corporate executive
Double production of Wall Street

PHILOSOPHICAL
+50% Great Person PRoduction
+2 free beakers per city
Double production of Universities/Observatories/Labs
Double production of Oxford

INDUSTRIOUS
+25% to World wonders (NOT National Wonders)
+1 hammer /4 hammer tiles
Double Production of Forge/Factory/Levee
Double Production of Iron Works

AGRESSIVE
Free Combat I to melee, gunpowder, Naval
Double production of Barracks, drydocks
Double production of the Heroic Epic

CHARISMATIC
-25% XP needed for promotion (same as before)
+1 happy face per monument/collesium/broadcast tower
Double production of Collesium and broadcast tower
Double Production of the Globe Theater

EXPANSIVE
+2 Health
+50% Worker production
Double production of Granery, Aqueduct, Grocer, Hospital
Double production of the National Park

CREATIVE
+2 culture
50% production bonus to all cathedrals
Double production of library, theater
Double production for hermitage

SPIRITUAL
No Anarchy
Double production to temples and missionaries
Double production to Red Cross

IMPERIALISTIC
+100% Great general production (Same)
+50% production of settler
Double production of stable and airport
Double production of West Point

ORGANIZED
-50% upkeep (same
Double production of courthouse, market, public tansportation
Double Forbidden Palace

PROTECTIVE
+100% great General production within culture borders (same as Geat Wall)
Free Drill I and CG I (same as before)
Double production of wall, castles, bunkers, bomb shelters
Double Mount Rushmore

SEAFARING
+50% final trade route yield (thus a 6 comemrce trade route is now 9)
Free flanking I to naval
Double production of Lighthouse, Harbor, CustomeHouse
Double Maori Statues

SECRETIVE
+1 ep/city
+1 food/5 food tile
Double Jail, Agency, Bureau, Spies
Double NAtional Epic

Note I added 2 new traits. I also adjusted some leaders and kept others the same, I will let everyone find out as we go who has what traits.

A link to the original Next Generation RPC game is here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=351630

And the mod is attached.

Frankly I do not know what I did, it has been a while, so if someone is kind enough to state what must be done to run this mod after downloading it would be appreciated.

Finally, this is for fun and allows some story telling and perhaps new strats. Anyone is free to start their own games using the mod.

The Games

Mad Saladin

Nice mod. Working on my own, glad to see a successful one-person mod (I assume you made it yourself?) as I'm doing hopelessly

Philo seems over powered

secretive seems very strong. Almost every special will have +1f and some of them right from beginning.

I would never play financial under these conditions and I don't like to play them already.

Philo is borderline... would have to playtest it.

And not sure about expansive... the +50% could be nasty for pumping out OF hammers.

that hwacha thing could backfire quickly ;-), luckilly AI's tend to build less siege then human.

I like the changes. I would expect these changes to actually make PHI a weaker than before - doubling production on Observatories, Labs, and Oxford doesn't come close to making up for the cost of half the boost to GPP. But PHI was very strong, should still be quite viable with this change.

I can't judge how much of a boost that Secretive trait would be without trying it; my guess is that it would be slightly stronger than CRE (both provide a nice boost to early game growth, and are relatively weak if you can't capitalize on that... Secretive is just better at it). And yes, FIN is seriously nerfed by this mod and I would avoid it like the plague.

The UU changes look quite nice - all those useless UUs finally getting a moment in the sun. The Phalanx change could make Alexander into an even more irritating neighbor though, if that's possible.

Overall though, it looks like a nice set of changes; I think I'll try this mod next time I go to start a game. I may tinker with the FIN trait a little though - see if I can up the boost to something like +2 commerce to tiles earning 4+ commerce or something.

cbucks said:

Philo seems over powered

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The strongest traits on that list are Secretive, Organized, and Industrious.

Secretive: Food specials of 5 or more are common. Focused EP can provide a landslide EP advantage against civs that have no way to come up with more EP in the early goings. Take a case of two 8 city empires around 500 BC to 1 AD: Empire 1 has 4 EP/turn, empire 2 has 13 EP/turn, or literally more than TRIPLE the EP. This has an impact on espionage spending and thus the cost of missions. Combining this with more food (often enough to just feed more spies outright) you have a very strong trait.

Organized: ORG is a top trait in base civ IV. It's even better now, and while others were also buffed to compensate a boosted market is a big draw. Not only is the "currency vs CoL" debate reduced for this trait, but a reduced price market becomes a potentially strong building allowing organized the potential to be a top vertical AND horizontal growth trait, while it it guaranteed to be an extremely powerful horizontal one regardless.

Industrious: On paper not that impressive until you think about the tile yield implications. Plains hill mines, production specials, and most importantly mid-game WORKSHOPS take this boost. State property + caste means that you can swing 2f 5h tiles or 1f 6h tiles everywhere...easily the strongest setup w/o wonders ever seen. Speeding industrialization with other hammer powerups is appealing too.

Are any of these overpowered compared against the new traits? Maybe a little. In a lot of respects, however, this will be the same civ IV in that play choices, spawns, etc will still decide the outcome in the vast majority of cases.

I also like what mad did with some of these traits as they imply some interesting strategic choices that the base game did not and in some cases can encourage unorthodox play and still be effective.

No love for the SEAL sadly; it is now the worst UU though the panzer *still* sucks just less so .

Numidian Cavalry is RIDICULOUS now. It went from bad to one of the top UU in the game with this mod. IMO this thing is better than the praetorian in Mad's world...it gains a bonus against its counter much stronger than the Keshik and attacks with improved survival in every case without exception. If you want a rofl-stomp with a civ you usually can't pull it, use this.

I like the ballista elephant and musketeer changes, the others we'll have to see .

ha! I overlooked the market... well now that seems interesting .

I agree with you on ind being strong, but 4H workshops are after caste+guilds/chem on plains (not so late, but not too soon) and in the case of gras after both guilds and chem + caste, so pretty late (and of course you're locked out from slavery which can be bigger problem).

The early game influence is only on PH (except for iron/copper specials which are rare compared to the food specials), which begins to be interesting choice over GH (which is usually viewed as superior due to the 1f).
I wouldn't call it blatantly overpowered without further testing (compared to the secretive).

V- A workshopped plains tile is 4H without caste

FIN seems a bit overnerfed

The Numidian Calvary indeed looks strong. Not sure if I care for the change to the Musketeer. Yeah, the Musketeer wasn't great but the 2 move offered some interesting tactical options, especially when married with strong mounted units. I'd prefer it kept the 2feet and add some sort of innate bonus. They were apparently good swordsman, so a shock promo would be apt.

Even grassland hills become a 5H tile with railroad What i like alot here is that the traits allow national wonders to be produced faster, although some traits have higher potential as they use the more common wonders (HE, NE, Oxford) whereas you rarely see Red Cross or NP. OTOH, with reduced price on this wonders they might get some love.

Not sure why you didn't change UBs at all, plenty of them could use some tweaking and it would make some of them more joyful.

Still, i like that overall. Enjoyed the game you did with your mod back then, looking forward to this

lymond said:

V- A workshopped plains tile is 4H without caste

FIN seems a bit overnerfed

The Numidian Calvary indeed looks strong. Not sure if I care for the change to the Musketeer. Yeah, the Musketeer wasn't great but the 2 move offered some interesting tactical options, especially when married with strong mounted units. I'd prefer it kept the 2feet and add some sort of innate bonus. They were apparently good swordsman, so a shock promo would be apt.

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with both guilds and chem - fairly late, if you want them much early you have to rely on caste, that was my whole point.

Thanks all for the feedback. I have play tested this mod so I can say all the traits are pretty good now. sat least in my dimented world. Some specific comments

PHIL: Rather powerful at beginning and it allows you to spread infinitely with teh slider at 100% gold due to the extra beakers. Mid-game it has all the fast buildings. late game it is fairly week compared to others. It is also rahter map indifferent.

FIN: The emphasis shifts from the sea to rivers for that extra commerce, cottages/cottages/cottages. Banks are bigger than most think, +50% gold quickly and it is well made for a strong corporation game with fast execs and wall street (not many BTS traits favored that except perhaps Phil).

IND: Probably the most powerful as TMIT points out, but takes time to get going and it's not that easy to wonderspam here. Coastal starts are rather tough.

AGG: definitely favors the early war-monger allowing domination of land and sea, it is not trivial to have combat I galleys at sailing. Also a fast Heroic Epic and a very powerful late game navy with those cheap drydocks.

CHA: not much change for a very good trait, but adding another happiness building and making a few cheap boosts the happiness quite a bit. Construction is a bigger beeline here than Monarchy often changing the dynamics of the early game.

EXP: SImply makes unhealthiness very minor for the civilization but gives a better worker boost early on.

CRE: was always fairly overpowered to me with the fast libraries so I nerfed it a tad but gave it a big edge on shooting for cultural victories in the fast cathedrals.

SPI: discounted monestaries were way too powerful so Missionaries were a good fit. Rather easy to manipulate religion which fits with the idea of the trait. It is not really that much stronger though expect for perhaps diplomatically.

IMP: Changes make it a fairly interesting war-mongering trait now. Fast stables and airports can make a big difference at keep technologies, leading to faster expansion. And we all know West Point can be annoying slow normally.

ORG; CHeap market but it loses the cheap early lighthouse. Still the strongest (and my favorite) trait.

PRO: that +100% GG production within internal borders was easy to put in as it was in the HTMLs already but set to zero, so I figured Frixas considered using it at one time. Definitley makes things more interesting during wars, especially if you can nab the Great Wall. Also better protection late game with those fast shelters allows for more interesting thinsg especially with a fast Mount Rushmore.

SEAFARING: is pretty damned stronge "IF" your coastal, if not then SOL! I will give one leader's traits away, Ragnar is AGG/SEA so watch out for those viking warships!

SECRETIVE: Not as overpowered as most think, especially if isolated or stuck with an inept techer like Sitting Bull. The food is pretty neat aspect, the only trait to affaect that which I think is fun. Also the discounted building are ALL late.

As far as the UUs
Numideans are just as sucesptible to spears than before but are not at a disadvantage against horse archers.
The Phalanx has no counter now as the beat Horse archers, however Big Al is no longer agressive (neither is Pericles for that matter) so it take a bit of a nerf there.
I like the Seal as they are but the Panzers needed something against non-armored units.

I also made the mod myself with some advice from this board.

Numideans are just as sucesptible to spears than before but are not at a disadvantage against horse archers.

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The drawback of numidians was their lack of base str vs opposing mounted and especially archers. You've taken a bad UU and made it into something strictly superior to horse archers. Don't forget that as defensive bonuses climb that base str bonus is better than the anti-melee...and that flank II spam while still taking combat will put these guys a promotion up on pretty much everything. Are they completely overpowered? No, but they are praetorian/war chariot/immortal class units with excellent short and long term upside.

IMO none of the traits are overpowered per se'. I actually like the variety they imply and if enough people play this who knows, they might turn out more balanced than the stock traits (I suspect they're at least as balanced although some a bit more situational)...it wouldn't surprise me as you yourself are experienced and you've taken wisdom from others as well; firaxis didn't have that type of evidence in their original design and clearly didn't make a strong effort at it in expansions.

Uh, just realized... will have to try out that mod with Charlemagne and Always War. Get Great Wall, attach the first GG to an Archer and let the GG farming begin :X

The reason I think philo is over powered is because early game u can expand like crazy and still not lag in tech. Late game it doesn't matter, but the game is usually decided first 100 turns anyway

cbucks said:

The reason I think philo is over powered is because early game u can expand like crazy and still not lag in tech. Late game it doesn't matter, but the game is usually decided first 100 turns anyway

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If you get 10 cities very fast you'll have 20 beakers without the slider. Enough to get you things like writing/pottery to rebuild the economy, but not enough alone to get things like currency and Code of Laws that fast.

madscientist said:

If you get 10 cities very fast you'll have 20 beakers without the slider. Enough to get you things like writing/pottery to rebuild the economy, but not enough alone to get things like currency and Code of Laws that fast.

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Actually if you average the #cities from turn 0 to turn 115 (on normal speed that's 1 AD) to around 4 (a little low-balling actually) you're getting 460 beakers pre-modifier. That's easily enough for alphabet or the lion's share of currency.

However, it's not an absolute mechanic, because the beakers allow pottery/writing sooner than you'd otherwise manage them = sooner availability of multipliers, gpp, etc. This trait should easily get you to currency/CoL even if you put the gas pedal down on expansion, assuming decent micro/tech priority/worker-to-city balance.

Considering that one can often afford 8+ BC's cities traitless this could easily push a player to 12+ on starts like that.

@madscientist

your mod doesnt seem to like BUG+BULL in customassets, any pointers what to fix (except for the obvious playing without bug through locked customassets)

edit:
ha! I found a way (after reinstalling everything - deadend way).

You can copy from your user account directory subdirectory "CustomAssets" into the mod, skip the buildings.xml, everything else isn't in conflict.

Maybe also give Fin a 33% discount on corporation spread and/or maintenance costs?

@Vranasm
Rename your custom assets to something else(i.e customassets-old) and I think that works. That's what I had to do when I installed BUFFY

I DL'd this and randomed up Pericles, and served a stern beatdown. It honestly seemed like every building is half price, and after your second city, its like getting half a gold mine of free beakers.

Btw I was looking forward to watching Hannibal roflstomp pacal with a parade of upgraded horse units, but sadly he got not horses in his lands lol

Going to keep playing this a few more times, and try a few leaders that arent quite as easy mode. So far its a refreshing change from standard BTS