Snerk
Smeghead
Dude, what? I'm just showing you the technically correct definition of Scandinavia. I'm not having a go at anybody.
I'm definitely not confusing the Scandinavian Peninsula with Scandinavia.
Scandinavians/Norsemen/Vikings/Danes... Time to clear this up once and for all.
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I'm definitely not confusing the Scandinavian Peninsula with Scandinavia.
Mango Elephant
Deity
lol Finland in Scandinavia 
sorry if Finnish schools teach that (and they are supposed to be very good) but no, Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, not Finland. 
I'm pretty sure most people (including Finns!) know this.
sorry if Finnish schools teach that (and they are supposed to be very good) but no, Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, not Finland. I'm pretty sure most people (including Finns!) know this.Sorry to tell you, your wrong.
I would please ask you people to 1. Stop insulting Finns, and 2. Giving out false false information. Please do not mix up the Scandinavian Peninsula and Scandinavia as a group of countries.
Also, if Finland is not a part of Scandinavia, neither is Denmark.
Save_Ferris
Admiring Myself
Maybe culturally, but I always considered Scandinavia to be a geographical region of Norway, Sweden, and Finland.
unfairlane
Warlord
The nordic civ dominated Europe in the early middle-ages and does definetly belong in Civ5, alot more than f.ex the US does.
Some Danes does (not too surprising) aggitate for an unbiased Danish kingdom, that`s just a sidetrack. The Nordic civ, mainly legendary for their early middelage raids should, as mentioned by sk3pt & others appear as one Scandinavisn/Norse civ.
About Danish greatness; a good tip here is to get your hands on the old book telling the tale about the famous Danish king Valdemar Sejr. (Serjr=victory) This old Danish tale shows an interresting side of this part of history that noone has mentioned so far
Abouth the Swedes: The word "russian" originally means blonde people. The vikings, mainly represented by the Swedes controlled all of todays Russia on the west side of the ural mountains and down to istanbul/Constantinople. They also founded the city-state Kiev, then known as "the land of the Rus".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus_(name)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'
If we then add that the Norwegians was busy trading through ten cities or tradeposts in Africa, a few in North America and comunicaded/traded w. China and held (& named) Cicily and Normandie we`re beginning gto get the picture.
Have you ever though of why Holland also is called Netherland? In Norwegian that`s spelled Nederland, from the Norwegian word "nede" meaning down, under a.s.o. This strongly indicated that the vikings dominasted Holland at this time.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Yeah, the Netherlands are the lower lands, but it's regarding the sea level. And they got their name from the time they were vaguely connected with the Holy Roman Empire. Scandinavia is unrelated.
Now the Netherlands certainly could have had a Norse settlement. Normandy, Dublin, England, and Kiev were all connected to the Northmen. But I wouldn't use linguistics as the strongest argument.
BTW, the Norse themselves never held Sicily. The Normans did. Yes, they were originally Norse, but I think a distinction needs to be made between the time they spoke a Germanic language and the period they spoke French. Once they started speaking French, they weren't the Vikings of old. In fact, by the time they actually conquered Sicily, it wouldn't surprise me if they had started to speak Italian, since we're talking about 60 years since they first arrived in Southern Italy.
Now the Netherlands certainly could have had a Norse settlement. Normandy, Dublin, England, and Kiev were all connected to the Northmen. But I wouldn't use linguistics as the strongest argument.
BTW, the Norse themselves never held Sicily. The Normans did. Yes, they were originally Norse, but I think a distinction needs to be made between the time they spoke a Germanic language and the period they spoke French. Once they started speaking French, they weren't the Vikings of old. In fact, by the time they actually conquered Sicily, it wouldn't surprise me if they had started to speak Italian, since we're talking about 60 years since they first arrived in Southern Italy.
Well, I was actually asking about Finland being part of Scandinavia. I am personally an advocate for Denmark appearing as a civilization, but I openly admit to being biased in that I am a Dane. >_>
lumpthing
generic lump
There are different definitions of what constitutes "Scandinavia". Some definitions include Finland, some don't. What distinguishes a correct definition from an incorrect definition? It's like arguing about whether the true name of the sea in-between England and France is "the English Channel" or "la Manche".
awesome
Meme Lord
oh man, i've been wondering why they were called that for a few years now. thanks.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I should clarify that the "low countries" predates the dikes themselves, but the area was always an area close to sea level. Originally, the term included Belgium and Luxembourg. The Netherlands were the United Provinces. But, I think a distinction began to emerge around the time Belgium officially split from Netherlands.
Note, I'm glad I'm not posting this in the history forum. My knowledge of this area is general so I'm either vague or full of inaccuracies. Technically, just to add, Netherlands is an English word. It's just that "nether" isn't used all that often anymore. It just shows the similarities between English (Netherlands) and Dutch (Nederlanden).
Note, I'm glad I'm not posting this in the history forum. My knowledge of this area is general so I'm either vague or full of inaccuracies. Technically, just to add, Netherlands is an English word. It's just that "nether" isn't used all that often anymore. It just shows the similarities between English (Netherlands) and Dutch (Nederlanden).
awesome
Meme Lord
people still sometimes say "nether regions" and i'm pretty sure beatlejuice was from the netherworld, though it was pronounced with a long e sound.
and i'm pretty sure that dutch, like english, is a germanic language.
and i'm pretty sure that dutch, like english, is a germanic language.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Dutch is. It's actually closer to English than other major German languages.
unfairlane
Warlord
That`s another interresting side of this; who where the Normans? As you`re in to; they were Norsemen at first, they occupied what we today know as Normandie and integrated through the centuries. But for generations they were still seen as "family"and "our own people" back in Norway & Denmark. When Sicily was taken in the early 11`th century they was still "familiy", of the same tribe.
The Norsemen or vikings also held Balticum, England, the Scottish islands, parts of Ireland, south part of Italy & parts of Palestine at this time, beside Russia west of Ural.
A note: while British history tells about Danish ships coming to Lindisfarne, in fact they were from the west coast of Norway.
Ingvina Freyr
wants a Steamfree option
Ah, look! A revival of the old thread aiming to "clear things up once and for all". That usually does not go very well .
Finnish is not a germanic language that's true, but geographical proximity and historical bonds have resulted in a number of elements linking Swedish and Finnish languages, so it's not completely unrelated. On top of that you have a minority of Swedish speaking people in Finland and Finnish speaking people in Sweden and the support of their languages by law, so even solely linguistically speaking you cannot exclude Finland from Scandinavia.
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I guess it depends on how you define the word occupy, but I never cared much for the saying that Sweden occupied Finland as it derives from a modern day perspective where there exists two states and I feel that it to some extent belittles the Finns. I would say that for a good 600-700 years, Finland was Sweden. In fact, after the 1808-09 war against Russia the western part of the old kingdom, traumatized by the conditions of the peace treaty, began a transformation searching for a new identity (the one we're living with now), while the eastern part of the old kingdom, now being a part of the Russian empire, defended the old traditions ardently against Russian influence and consequently was being more swedish than Sweden, socio-politically speaking.
If you limit your perspective to the cold war era you will find a lot of policies attempting to appease the relationship with the Soviet Union but the state of Finland is by no means an eastern country. If you are talking about the province of Karelia then yes, that is half western, half eastern.
Finnish is not a germanic language that's true, but geographical proximity and historical bonds have resulted in a number of elements linking Swedish and Finnish languages, so it's not completely unrelated. On top of that you have a minority of Swedish speaking people in Finland and Finnish speaking people in Sweden and the support of their languages by law, so even solely linguistically speaking you cannot exclude Finland from Scandinavia.
This is an English speaking forum where the term nordic makes little or no sense. To the rest of the world it's Scandinavia, and why not? It includes the geographical, political, ethnical and linguistic perspective and holds least possible considerations.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
^ I think 100 years of Russian rule and another 50 years of Cold War politics aren't insignificant. It's not a huge deal. My only point was unique history (because of Russian occupation) and unique language made Finland a bit apart from Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. I also consider Iceland to be a bit apart simply due to isolation at times. I wasn't trying to say Finland was shunned by Scandinavia or anything, just that it stands out a touch.
The thing is, the people of Normandy (or, to be more accurate, probably the military leaders of Normandy) were Norse. But they were 100-150 years removed from this. Instead of leaders like Rollo, you had Robert, Richard, and William (all very French). They weren't Viking sea raiders, they were a land power. The Normans were famous for having very good cavalry. The way they dressed and shaved were indicative of the French more than Scandinavia. They spoke French and swore allegiance to the French King. Now I'm not saying they were French, they're not. They were Norman, which was its own unique thing that put them neither in the world of the Franks or the world of the Norse.
Yeah, in England, Dane and Norse were often used interchangeably. Since there were no real established states, they essentially just meant "people from over there who raid us."
The thing is, the people of Normandy (or, to be more accurate, probably the military leaders of Normandy) were Norse. But they were 100-150 years removed from this. Instead of leaders like Rollo, you had Robert, Richard, and William (all very French). They weren't Viking sea raiders, they were a land power. The Normans were famous for having very good cavalry. The way they dressed and shaved were indicative of the French more than Scandinavia. They spoke French and swore allegiance to the French King. Now I'm not saying they were French, they're not. They were Norman, which was its own unique thing that put them neither in the world of the Franks or the world of the Norse.
Yeah, in England, Dane and Norse were often used interchangeably. Since there were no real established states, they essentially just meant "people from over there who raid us."
Moderator Action: I think this thread has run its course. It no longer appears to have much, if anything, to do with Civ. Please note that you're very welcome to continue the discussion in the History forum, if you wish. Closed.
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