Sirian's Sand Box

Sky: Glad to hear your new family member arrived without complications! I figured that you were busy with something important. Won't be long before your next turn rolls around.


Dwip: Our irrigation situation was "good". There were a couple of cities still dry, chiefly those the farthest away from water sources. I mostly took care of that on my round, but you can finish bringing water to those last parched areas on your round.

Early in the game we had all the workers out in the boonies and that was bad. Generally, work should be done on the core first, on the best tiles first, on the highest priority jobs first. However, large maps play differently than small and medium maps. Roads take on more value. Looking ahead to what will be needed, as opposed to reacting only after to the fact to what is already needed but not present, is a more effective approach.

I emphasized a road to the FP and FP lands in the early game and that got done, which helped. I took it for granted that folks would extrapolate from that to the idea of building roads to every region of the land we hoped to occupy -- and that amounts to every region of the land. We want it all! The idea that tundra or desert is not highly fertile land and therefore undesirable is faulty. The notion that you need a dot map and every location mapped out for you misses the point. Remember early in the game, when I said I was going to go light on dotmapping and detailed plans and team management? I expect you guys to think these things through yourselves. This not being a high pressure game where victory hangs by a thread, we have margin for error. Hearing from me about errors or about moves I question is par for the course, and so is having to make your own choices or figure out what to do from what you are handed. That doesn't mean I expect you to do this or that, only that I will comment about what is done, either way.

I've got my own estimates on how much military we should have places, but since everything I do is up for critique these days - what are we considering to be an adequate military force to shoot for? 2 defenders per city? 2 rearline/3 frontline + offensive troops? What?

Discard this entire way of thinking. Do not seek a one-size-fits-all way to deal with cities in rubber stamp fashion. Tailor our forces to the capabilities of the enemy. Can the enemy land a ship or two of troops anywhere along the shore? Yes. We need at least two defenders in every coastal city and three at ones with resources or near enemy ports. We need a few fast response troops in the back lines to attack landing parties. Inland, we need only one unit per city. The rest of our force should be positioned to converge on what will be a massive enemy invasion force if one is sent. Two or three units? We need DOZENS of units and we need them in position. Check out the military distribution I've handed you, watch the dozens of animations of American forces shifting around on patrol in just the few tiles we can see, and think about the SoD that will be coming our way. We want to stop it in its tracks, not lose half a dozen cities.

This is not just a large map, it's the equivalent of a huge map situation. If you apply a small map military game plan, you will be in for some rude surprises!


- Sirian
 
<snippity snip. Why are these posts appearing HERE of all places, instead of at the end?>
 
<snippity snip>
 
<continued snippage. Bad forums. Bad.>
 
Now, will the forums kindly do what I want them to do?

(0) 1050 AD - Looking around, again. Who IS Taji, anyway?

Whatever gigantic horde the Americans have, we ought to be able to take care of ourselves down south, so we'll be sending all military north.

Also, prod avoidance:

Rush courthouses where possible.

Rax and defensive troops. Check.

Switch the Delhi collosseum to a bank. Check.

Why are we massively roading the desert? I wish that one had been explained to me, 'cause I don't quite see it. But whatever.

(IBT) - Abe moves a couple three guys around over by Lake Sirian.

(1) 1060 AD - New Chittagong Granary->Cathedral, New Punjab Courthouse->Granary, New Ganges Courthouse->Rax, Center City Courthouse->Rax

We get some nifty tower things on the palace.

Oh. We have a ship? "I see," said the blind man.

The Infrastructure Christmas reaches out and gifts Albequerque with a brand new courthouse! :santa:

Tinker with Ye Olde Slider to save some gold while snagging Banking in the same three turns.

(IBT) - Abe moves some pikes around. ooOOooOOoo.

(2) 1070 AD - Albequerque Courthouse->Temple

Seoul gets Leo's.

And today's Infrastructure Christmas gift recipient is... Lake Sirian! :santa:

(IBT) - Abe even has boats. ooOOooOOoo.

(3) 1080 AD - Kolhapur Cathedral->Pike. Lake Sirian Courthouse->'duct. New Delhi Courthouse->'duct.

Ooo. A pikeman goto. That I didn't set.

The Eternal Infrastructure Christmas visits Macaw. :santa:

(IBT) - Did somebody give Abe permission to build knights?

(4) 1090 AD - Banking comes in, and we go for Printing Press in 4.

Bangalore University->Bank. Macaw Courthouse->Library.

The Eternal Infrastructure Christmas visits New Dacca AND New Indus. :santa:

Whyever that pike was going to Dacca of all places, he's there now.

(5) 1100 AD - Chittagong University->Pike. Punjab 'duct->Cathedral. New Dacca Courthouse->Library. New Indus Courthouse->Granary. Center City Rax->Pike.

The Eternal Infrastructure Christmas visits Blubber. :santa:

(6) 1110 AD - Karachi Cathedral->Bank. Bengal Cathedral->Bank. Dacca 'duct->Cathedral. New Ganges Rax->Pike. Blubber Courthouse->Harbor. Kolhapur Pike->Bank.

The Eternal Infrastructure Christmas visits New Jaipur and New Hyerdabad. :santa:

(7) 1120 AD - Madras University->Bank. Jaipur Harbor->Library. New Bangalore Granary->Library. New Jaipur Courthouse->'duct. New Hyerdabad Courthouse->Granary.

Do not try to move the millions of workers, for that is impossible. Try only to realize the truth. There are no millions of workers.

Forgot the EIC, too. Oh well. :santa: needed a break.

(8) 1130 AD - Printing Press comes in, Democracy in 4.

Delhi Bank->Pike. Chittagong Pike->Bank. New Lahore Cathedral->Bank. New Kolhapur Granary->Library. Coastal Flats Courthouse->Marketplace. Center City Pike->Pike.

The Eternal Infrastructure Christmas, back from retirement, visits...New Dacca, New Madras, Taj Mahal, and Blubber! :santa:

(9) 1140 AD - Bombay University->Bank. Ganges Granary->Market. New Madras Cathedral->Granary. New Calcutta Courthouse->Harbor. New Bengal 'duct->Cathedral. New Dacca Library->Cathedral. New Ganges Pike->Pike. New Pune 'duct->Cathedral. Blubber Harbor->Granary. Taj Mahal Granary->Temple.

The Eternal Infrastructure Christmas sets up the "Let's Get Democracy ASAP" fund.

(10) 1150 AD - Delhi Pike->Pike. Calcutta University->Bank. Lahore University->Bank. Hyerdabad Cathedral->Bank. Botany Bay Walls->Library.

Things moved. Workers, such as that. Amazing, really.

Save India for Democracy!
 
Now, having posted the turn, and now that the forums actually work for me (confused by the rant? Browse the last page...), there will be Comments.

We'll start on something of a tangent, by noting that

Hearing from me about errors or about moves I question is par for the course, and so is having to make your own choices or figure out what to do from what you are handed. That doesn't mean I expect you to do this or that, only that I will comment about what is done, either way.

doesn't quite ring true to me, because I feel like I'm getting the :whipped: a whole lot because I'm not following some Sirian master plan that I don't really understand. Which is why I keep asking questions, so I can figure out said master plan and avoid the :whipped:, but by doing so, I apparently get the :whipped: anyway. Whatever.

Having said that, I'll once more defend my worker choices from my previous turn by noting that we really didn't have enough workers, and on the scale of Things What Need Doing, improving crappy glacier cities was pretty low on the list, much less the desert roading. Much the same for this turn, though there are, I dunno, four workers up there doing stuff. Tibetian Monastary has a road to it now, anyway. We could still probably use one or five new workers, but I didn't quite get there on my turn. Ah well.

I asked for the dotmap solely because of the whole master plan thing. I'm tired of getting the :whipped: because of cities I dunno are there. That problem seems to be over for me, since we're about out of cities to settle - except for the fishing village that got talked about, but I didn't have the turns to throw a settler at it.

Military. We'll just forget my little question. Instead, we'll note that while I did manage to throw some pikes up north for defense, I didn't have enough turns to deal with everything, nor was I especially willing to devote our entire economy to pike production. Nevertheless, the north is slowly getting defenders.

We should also give some thought to rotating a couple of our MDIs out of the central jungle cities and reinforcing Lake Sirian a bit, and reinforcing, oh, New Madras and in there a bit. New Jaipur, IIRC, is pretty overloaded, and we could shift most of that down. The other thing we could stand to do is start replacing those MDIs with phants to give our reaction forces a little bit more speed, but that's a bit down the road. Our front line cities could also use a rax or two, but I didn't get there. A round or two of the Eternal Infrastructure Christmas :santa: ought to fix that, though, even at the expense of a turn of science.

All of that said, I'm not scared of Abe. I do not see the spectre of massive amphibious invasions hanging over our heads. Pikes, maybe, or rifles when the time comes, and yes the SOD will be large, but that big stack of troops down by Lake Sirian doesn't much scare me.

Courthouses. I rushed a whole bunch. I think we're about out of courthouses to rush, even. I even rushed a few misc things, like a harbor in Blubber and a library in New Karachi. That having been said, it would seem to me that we could stand to slam the research slider to 0 every few rounds and dump some more cash into our infrastructure. In particular, our border cities could probably use more culture, especially out in the American thumb in the east. The rax I mentioned. A few assorted other things.

Oh, yes. Happiness is starting to be an issue. Had a riot or two that I wasn't quick enough to prevent. There will be more. We could stand more Cathedrals and the like, and I've tried to do that whenever possible. Speaking of which, keep an eye on New Ganges and Center City. They both need one soon, IIRC.
 
We'll start on something of a tangent, by noting that (Sirian's comment) doesn't quite ring true to me, because I feel like I'm getting the whip a whole lot because I'm not following some Sirian master plan that I don't really understand. Which is why I keep asking questions, so I can figure out said master plan and avoid the whip, but by doing so, I apparently get the whip anyway. Whatever. - Dwip

You and I are not connecting. I am not even cracking a whip. You have been singled out for special attention because of comments like this:

"I'm tired of getting the whip because of cities I dunno are there."

Cities you don't know are there? These sorts of comments lead me to wonder whether you are not understanding, not reading, or not effectively evaluating significance. You speak as if I have a SECRET master plan, but there is no secret. I've described the plans, goals and priorities. For cities and land, I have been both concise and clear. Here's the quote:

As long as we're not running communism, there is zero concern about going "over" the "max city" count. We want as much land as many cities as we can get, but it's best to be smart about how we do that.

Being a commercial civ, we can support 30 cities before we hit that "max" figure anyway, and with courthouses and WLTKD, third ring cities would still eventually become productive with a bit of nurturing. The main strategizing here involves corruption: making the most of the FP, both on location and in settling in a way that doesn't slow its construction, and also in going with less overlap, which hurts a little short term but helps for the late game. Being a builder game, we pretty much want to build as much as possible. This is a sand box. Spread out and enjoy

That was where I spelled out the plan for settling. Now what is unclear about that? What's unclear about "we want as much land as we can get"? The idea that you are waiting to be told where the cities are going to be doesn't add up for me. Cities you "don't know are there"? Huh? There's no place we DON'T want a city. That much I did say.

If you disagree with that plan, we could hear your ideas. Plans can change. You haven't voiced any strategic objections, though, nor have you forwarded another idea.

You have made many such comments. The post where you made the bold pink flashing comment, I had written a few requests into my report. You didn't say you disagreed with them or vetoed them. You said you missed them entirely. I was not being a wiseguy with the pink text. I figured you were skimming my posts, or that you have too many other things on your mind to remember what you are reading. What else explains you missing that many items? Whatever the explanation, I figured I really had better prioritize my comments, to single out the ones that were more important and draw your attention to them just like you suggested. Now I'm getting a bunch of attitude from you. We're going from minor to major miscommunication and on collision course with significant misunderstanding.

For a fellow who sprinkles heavy seasonings of sarcasm and dry wit into his reports, you don't seem at all comfortable with my sense of humor. Following me in the rotation appears not to be the best fit for you. Ozy cracked a joke about me following him for once, but Charis or Sulla would tell you that following me is more engaging than preceding me. Those who precede me only have to endure comments about their moves, and I will stop that if they object. Those who follow me will inevitably run into some moves that don't add up for them and then have to try to decide whether they see something I didn't or I am seeing something they don't. That's much tougher ground to cover.

I'll once more defend my worker choices from my previous turn by noting that we really didn't have enough workers.

We don't have enough workers? :rolleyes: We've got almost a hundred of them. We have more than two per city and one for every military unit we own. The massive jungle requires us to train more than most games, but how many more do you want? Do you even realize we will go from 90ish to 140ish workers (effectively) in just a couple of turns?

You say we need one to five more workers when we are about to get 50% more worker power. Those two points add up, in my view, to the sense that you are caught up in tactical issues and missing the strategic big picture. I don't know how to remedy that. I have discussed the strategics. You say "secret master plan" and that just baffles me. The only secret is coming from you not making tactical connections to the openly stated strategic priorities. Yet when I get into specifics and move to prioritize, to step back from the big picture to communicate at a lower gradient with you, you get restless and irritated at being criticized.

and on the scale of Things What Need Doing, improving crappy glacier cities was pretty low on the list, much less the desert roading

We are a handful of turns away from Gunpowder. Where do you think the saltpeter is going to show up? This is a flat, wet map. There aren't many hills, aren't many mountains, and aren't many desert tiles. Surely we can spare one worker for a dozen turns, for increasing the possibility of having saltpeter already connected, and for the possibility of reducing the time to connect it if it's there but not on one of the roaded tiles. Not to mention the actual travel benefit, including improving shuffle times if we move units back and forth from those coastal cities, and the fact that if war breaks out, that's one region where it would benefit us in several ways to have, say, a road there. Maybe?

These items seem both obvious and self-evident to me, but then so does almost anything one knows, after it is known. You asked a good question: why are we roading the desert? You say you don't see it. Fine. But your conclusion appears to be that since you don't see a good reason, there must not be one. "Whyever that pike was going to Dacca of all places, he's there now." You have made a point several times of implying weed on my part because you inherited something that didn't make sense to you. I figured that if you gave it a little thought, you might see it, especially since I HAVE explained the general priorities to which these moves are attached. I also figured that if I made a specific point to request a certain move, that whether you "see it" or not, you wouldn't veto unless you had an important reason to do so, with the reasons perhaps coming clear later. This being a sandbox game, I'm here to relax, not to explain the full range of reasons for every move I make or every request I set forth. Yet you seem intent to focus on every such instance where you don't get it and make sure it's known that you disapprove. Fine. I'm as tired of that as you are of the pink text and the critiques.

I treated you the way I would Charis or Sulla or any other RB player: I offered my strategic visions, and in my reports, I made a few suggestions. When things I set in motion were not completed, I made increasing effort to communicate what I was doing and why, and that has only angered you. Well, enough of that. The LAST thing I wanted in this relaxed sandbox game was tension. I'm sorry for irritating you. Many folks welcome my views and insights during an SG, but that's not for everybody.

We are switching roster spots. You will go ahead of me. I will not comment on your moves. I will continue to offer strategic visions for the team, and as always, you will have opportunity to voice your opinions, and discretion on your turn to pursue the big picture as you choose. Otherwise we won't interact. OK?


- Sirian
 
Much to say, many tangents to say it on.

Now I'm getting a bunch of attitude from you. We're going from minor to major miscommunication and on collision course with significant misunderstanding.

Yes, yes you are getting a lot of attitude. Even, upon rereading, in my last post. Which doesn't particularly look good for me, since I was deliberately attempting NOT to give that appearance, and I went through a couple three drafts trying to kill said attitude. Oops. Apologies. I'm really not trying to be a whining fool, here. I simply seek enlightenment.

I should note that this is, oh, my third SG, my second real SG. I've got little experience with Civ as a team game. I feel like there are, certain, oh, let's call them assumptions rather than a master plan, being made that don't necessarily mesh with my own. So I get nitted on certain of them, :whipped: if you will. On some of them I'm just plain idiotic, like the whipping thing - I've used the whip maybe five times. I don't much understand it. Others, like the dotmap, I understand the theory of "lots of settlements" well enough, but didn't quite see where we were going with, say, the roads to the sites and such, so I asked for clarification. The answer I got ("use your head!") wasn't quite was I after - what I was after was more of an "in specific, I was thinking about this tile and this tile and this was why" sort of thing. Sometimes I need that. *shrug*

Throughout, of course, there's a certain amount of painful awareness that yes, this is my all of second RB SG, and wow, I'm actually playing an SG with the people I've read and admired for their skill at the game for like a year now, and that no, I'm apparently not living up to expectations, and yes, I should do what I can to fix that. So I tried, in my fashion, to do fix it, and that has failed apparently. Argh.

Now, I can use my head, and obviously have if I'm sitting in this game and RBP 10A, and I'd wager that my roster of huge map builder games is right up there with anyone's, but like I said. I'm new to this team thing. I'm new to how people other than me deal with things. So I ask.

If you disagree with that plan, we could hear your ideas. Plans can change. You haven't voiced any strategic objections, though, nor have you forwarded another idea.

I haven't been saying much, no, though I think my last turn's commentary might've changed that a bit hopefully. :) Like I said. I'm new to how you do stuff, and I've a certain feeling that oft times it is better than what I myself do, so why argue? I will ask questions, though. And when I do, it usually requires a pretty specific answer to beat through my thick skull and preconcieved gameplay notions. :)

You said you missed them entirely. I was not being a wiseguy with the pink text. I figured you were skimming my posts, or that you have too many other things on your mind to remember what you are reading. What else explains you missing that many items? Whatever the explanation, I figured I really had better prioritize my comments, to single out the ones that were more important and draw your attention to them just like you suggested.

And I muchly appreciate the pink text. I really do. There's another apology to be made here, in that my mind perhaps hasn't been all on the game lately, since I was under a lot of school stress. That is over now, thankfully, and hopefully my last turn has reflected an increased dedication. In any event, it was more the forgetting than the skimming. The pink text was an attempt to prevent that, and I like to think it's worked, and I appreciate the doing of it.

Those who follow me will inevitably run into some moves that don't add up for them and then have to try to decide whether they see something I didn't or I am seeing something they don't. That's much tougher ground to cover.

And that would be the nature of the matter entirely. I am running into those moves, and I'm trying to figure out where they're coming from, and haven't quite succeeded. Nevertheless, I've tried to make my best of it. I've actually been gleefully happy following you, figuring that I'll have to pick up some things.

An aside on the workers. Workers are sort of like my crack fix. I'm addicted to the little guys. I imagine that if I had enough workers to completely railroad every single part of my empire but one tile I'd still scream about not having enough workers. That having been said, no, I wasn't counting worker totals, but I was paying attention to totals in various regions, and trying to prioritize as I saw fit. In the tactical sense, using my head. In specific, it seemed to me turn before last that we didn't have enough workers in the north to be roading tundra AND the more productive stuff. Now the problem area seems to me like the jungle. Democratic workers will help, but.

Am I caught up in the tactical over the strategic? Perhaps. I'm guilty of forgetting about Democratic workers, at any rate. Strategic to me has been something along the lines of "Well, we'll get to Democracy, then see where we need to be after that." *shrug*

And while we're doing asides, saltpeter. No, I hadn't much thought about it, but then I never much think about it because 90% of the time it is so utterly noncritical to my gameplan that it doesn't even register, and if I DO happen to need it, I'll go task a road to it and have it in 3 turns or whatever. Peaceful builder game. Wars are not on the agenda. I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I've been attacked pre-industrial being peaceful. I've had games where I haven't even bothered to pick up chivalry or mil tradition. OTOH, your saltpeter milage very obviously varies. One of those assumptions we both mention.

But as to me declaring weed and

But your conclusion appears to be that since you don't see a good reason, there must not be one.

Assuming lack of a good reason, I'm sorry if that's the impression I've given, because it's not the one I've tried to give. I was after more of a "Hrm. Ok. Enlighten me, please?" reaction than a "FOOL! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!?" reaction. *shrug* You use the Dacca pike as an example. That was a sort of parenthetical shrug, as in "well, I see three or so other cities I'd have sent him to first, but it doesn't really matter, so whatever." Same thing with the ship. I have no idea why we've got a galley, and both of us mentioned that, but I drove it around anyway. So far as I can recall, the only time I was all that peevish was that warrior on goto down by Macaw. It being considered in these things to inform about such things, one wondered why I didn't see mention of it, but in the end it's just a warrior. I don't care all that much. Perhaps I'm confused about your humor, perhaps you're confused about how I write. Dunno. I like to think I'm fairly clear, and that I appreciate your humor, but maybe not. *shrug* Believe me that I'm not trying to imply that you of all people has been partaking of the weed a tad much.

When things I set in motion were not completed, I made increasing effort to communicate what I was doing and why, and that has only angered you.

If there's anger here at all, it's directed at me, not you. There's some frustration on my part because for some reason I cannot see certain things y'all've been doing. When I seek clarification and still don't get it, that frustrates me too. But hey. Learning is always frustrating at some point. It's also fun, and I HAVE been having fun here, too, else I'd have dropped long ago.

We are switching roster spots. You will go ahead of me. I will not comment on your moves. I will continue to offer strategic visions for the team, and as always, you will have opportunity to voice your opinions, and discretion on your turn to pursue the big picture as you choose. Otherwise we won't interact. OK?

This is, near as I can tell, about the LAST thing I want. The pink text does not bother me in the slightest. I LIKE critiques. I LIKE following you and getting nitted. I apologize for giving the opposite impression, for it was not the intent that I set out with. All I seek is enlightenment, in my evidently clear as mud fashion. It's your choice as to where I am in the roster and how much input you give me, but I like where I'm at. Really. If I'm going to get enlightenment, I'd rather get it from you than up in Tibetian Monastary. Do you have any idea how COLD it is up there? ;)

I am, hopefully, clearer and happier this time around?
 
Short, sweet, punchy, right! Was a comment on an editorial about some well-known (to the newsie types) editor who used to hack to bits many a line of copy. Evidently this editor liked things simple and to the point.

So--Got it.

Enough of the brevity.

My view on this game. Stategic vision is good. For my part--I'll take care of the tactics on my term, and offer my thoughts on the stategic situation. Of course I always welcome comments as to whether my tactical moves or strategic suggestions fit within the teams' vision. Highlighting important tactical issues for the next player is always a good thing, whether in bright pink text or bold, or Nota Bene or whatever.

Back to brevity:

Thick skin.

This game is relaxing. I find your banter (even if you are talking across each other sometimes) to be entertaining. Since it appears neither of you have any desire to make the game tense--there it is--no tension.

Life is too full of gut-wrenching events--let's keep this one light, please (this is not an accusation--it is a plea of one who has had one to many funerals today).

We are in a good position in the game--not perfect, but good. The scenario is interesting--much different than the norm.

That is all.
My turns will complete tomorrow.
 
Oh no ! :cry:
Looks like I won't get Sirian's :whipped: on my moves as the roster has changed now :(
Too bad...I am one of those crazy guys that actually enjoys Sirian's input a lot, even if it hurts a bit some times ;)
 
Erm, the galley was strictly my idea. Why did I build it? "To go West young man, go West!" Seriously, I figured since we hadn't made contact with anyone else yet, and since we couldn't trade maps with the AI, why not build a boat to explore with?

I hope that wasn't too weedy, but I didn't think there was a problem with "expanding our horizons," pun intended. :p
 
Weeeeeelll... it's about in position to do the exploring by Korea part, now. Though it'd be a suicide run, and I decided I liked our seafarers too much to risk them. ;) They're there, though, and there's a promising-looking crossing spot nearby, for whatever that tells people.
 
Throughout, of course, there's a certain amount of painful awareness that yes, this is my all of second RB SG, and wow, I'm actually playing an SG with the people I've read and admired for their skill at the game for like a year now, and that no, I'm apparently not living up to expectations... Argh. - Dwip

No, you're not living up to expectations. That has nothing to do with your playing ability or game performance, though. "I simply seek enlightenment." Yes, that's the problem. This is my sand box game. The LAST thing I came here to do was write at length. See? Sand box mode? Just playing around? I made that as clear as I could and you're missing the most important point! This is not a training game. This is not a Deity game. This is not a high pressure anything. This is goofing off with some Civ3 for kicks and relaxation. Winning is about sixth on my priority list.

The answer I got ("use your head!") wasn't quite was I after - what I was after was more of an "in specific, I was thinking about this tile and this tile and this was why" sort of thing. Sometimes I need that. *shrug*

Ya. But for this game, "use your head" is all you should expect. I'm off the clock in this one. About the only thing you could do wrong here (from a position of good faith) is what you are doing: demanding more work from me.

I understand where you are coming from, but my answer is not going to change. "Use your head!" Just do your best. That, and stop expecting enlightenment. What I need and want from you is for you to treat this like a sand box game, not like a cutting edge variant expedition where any thread out of place could unweave the whole tapestry. It doesn't matter if you don't get it all the time. OK?

If you came here for a training game, you came to the wrong place. You might learn some things here, but I need you to learn them mostly on your own. Whatever you can figure out from playing and from the sparsely detailed writings I have been offering, fine. The other players may offer you insights. Beyond that, cope.


You use the Dacca pike as an example. That was a sort of parenthetical shrug, as in "well, I see three or so other cities I'd have sent him to first, but it doesn't really matter, so whatever."

Everything matters. I've literally won or lost games on single dice rolls, because the outcome was so close that one dice roll tipped the scales. There are usually different ways to get things done in Civ, though, so there is usually not one "best" way.

Could that pike have been sent to a different city? Yes. I sent it to the most valuable city first, off the list of cities needing new reinforcements, with the intent to free up the warrior there to go inland to some low risk site. Thus that was the one city where I could get "two for one", so I chose it first. Would changing that order have cost us anything? Very unlikely. Most likely, we will have plenty of time to defend all the undefended and underdefended northern towns. However, why goof around? Even a tiny chance of invasion up there is worth considering, because even in always-war games, the AI's will send some few shiploads at your back lines just to keep you honest. The AI may not be good at massing forces at sea, but it is good at probing for weakness.

You got irritated by a build queue and some units left on goto. Those are both no-no's in succession games, but THIS IS A SAND BOX. OK? :crazyeye: Those are build queues I would set up for my own self in single player. Large maps are harder for me to keep track of, so I get in the habit of using queues on items where forgetting would cost something. MUCH of the problem is that in PTW they broke the "ask for new orders after unit construction" option, so one CANNOT build units any more and not have them keep on building unless you use the queue. With workers and settlers that can be very bad!

None of that had anything to do with you or any slight directed at you, but only with me playing the game without paying strict attention to protocol. Did I violate SG ettiquette with those items? Yes, although the ettiquette needs updating if this bug never gets fixed. And sometimes when one thoroughly knows the rules, he can get away with breaking them in an informal situation, especially when he is the game host who has specifically made informality the first, second and third priority of the game. :lol: I repeat: SAND BOX.

Sand box. :whipped: Sand box. :spank: Sand box. :die: Sand box.

(bold)(pink)Sand box!(/pink)(/bold) :)


Believe me that I'm not trying to imply that you of all people has been partaking of the weed a tad much.

Enh. I make my share of ineffective moves. Some of my worst are legendary! There have been a few Epics where I finished at or near the bottom of the pack. I've finished first more than my share, but that is due to the fact that I can find ways out of trouble, rather than that I never get into trouble.

So I get nitted on certain of them, :whipped: if you will.

The Prod is legendary for good reason. But tripping over it and being zapped while getting in and out of my sand box on your turn is definitely not the same as being herded. You'll know High Intensity if you get zapped by it. For goodness sakes, the thing isn't even TURNED ON right now. :lol:

It's your choice as to where I am in the roster and how much input you give me, but I like where I'm at. Really. If I'm going to get enlightenment, I'd rather get it from you than up in Tibetian Monastary. Do you have any idea how COLD it is up there?

Pack your thermals. Wear layers. :lol:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ozy. I'm glad you built that ship. I'm even glad you sent it into rival waters without permission. That inspired me to gift some luxuries to Joanie, which inspired her to sell us a tech and put us four turns ahead of where we were on the tech tree. There is no one left to contact. You realize that, right? But it won't hurt us to explore the map. We could actually use two more ships and get them into position by the time Magnetism comes in. (We won't likely be getting Navigation).


- Sirian
 
SAND BOX

Righty. I do believe I've got that down now. :) Play. Have fun. Remember that this is not a variant. Yes.

Apologies are in order, however. I went back and did another read-through of the thread, and it is very very clear to even thick-skulled, forgetful me that I was way way way out of line few posts back. I can but plead stress and the nervousness I mentioned, and say that I've very sorry that that had to come out here of all places. Also apologies to everyone for cluttering up the sandbox with litter as I am.


At the risk of slightly over-:whipped:ing the greyish-looking horse-shaped animal, and of possibly overusing the -...

The Dacca pike, the warrior goto, those were both things I was slightly curious about for maybe 3 seconds. Irritated might even be too strong a word. I usually note anything out of the ordinary, and since you guys see my pretty much unedited turnlogs... just how I write stuff. No big deal.

I've overstated the :whipped: thing, too. Like I said, that :whipped:-filled post up there was some demented product of nerves and stress and whatever[1]. There was a certain image I had somehow built up in my head that was totally out of proportion with reality, that has now been dealt with more than adequately, I think.

[1] - I should also admit a certain overfondness for the :whipped: smiley. Civfantics has like THE coolest smileys. But anyway.

As for weed... *shrug* Like I said. I'm new around here. I think the only place where I'm in much disagreement with anyone is the military issue, but ah well - what we've got in the places I'm thinking about does the job. *shrug*

Pack your thermals. Wear layers.

*tows a space heater behind the dog sled* ;)


So, anyway, roster is now

Sirian
Bam-Bam
Ozymandous
Skyfish
Dwip

?

And now that I've overly cluttered the thread, back to the fun!

:hammer: :egypt: :sheep:
 
The smileys? :lol: Oh yeah. Definitely. :lol:

The best laughing smiley around. :lol: I have been known to crack jokes just for an excuse to use it. :lol: I even drag it up for use on the RB forum. :lol: In fact, I have been accused of pretending to crack jokes but not actually doing it. :lol: The opposite of "so funny I forgot to laugh": "I'm having so much fun laughing, I don't need the funny part." :lol:

Now if only they had a Prod smiley, with the evil genius applying the cattle prod with a little electric zap animation... (Yes, that was another excuse to do this...) :lol:

And yes, that would be the new roster.

:fish:


- Sirian
 
Inherited Turn 1150 AD
Sack minstrals. Sack entertainer in New Lahore--this gets us more cash and will complete the bank 1 turn earlier. Entertainers sacked in Golden Plains, Nw Ganges.and New Kolhapur in favor of taxmen. Same for New Karachi. Entertainer sacked in New Madras--it is way happy.

1160 AD (1)

1 cathedral, 1 temple, one pikeman complete. Two markets and one granery ordered. Nota Bene: For tundra--roaded forest is better than mined. One food two shields, two gold vs. 1f/1s/2g. Slider drops a notch to net an additional 100g while democracy still completes next turn. Korea has founded a city in the jungle by France.

IT: France wants and RoP for incense--I convince Joan that she would like 5g instead. RoP signed. France starts magellans. America completes Bachs (SanFran), . Korea cascades to smiths.

1170 AD (2)

We learn democracy--head to guns. Take advantage of the half-turn anarchy by revolting immediately. One temple completes and one aquaduct starts. WE LOVE DEMOCRACY!!!! WE can get guns in 4 turns @ 30% science, with 359 gpt. Desert road projects continue. Hurry granery in blubber and south dacca.

IT: france cascades to smiths from bach.

1180 AD (3)

Two cathedral, on uni, one aqueduct. two graneries complete. Worker teams for jungle busting should be two-men teams. Fast workers rock.

IT: :smoke: left galley on sea tile and paid price--took sandbox talk too seriously.and lost focus. :whipped: Bad Bam-Bam! Sorry--galley will be replaced in two.

1190 AD (4)

Cathedrals 1, temples 1. Rush court in monestary.

1200 AD (5)

2 pikes, 1 aqueduct, one court. 1 aqueduct rushed. Science to 20%--491 gpt, guns in 1. Upgrade a spear.

Americans are building shakes and magellans.

1210 AD (6)

Learn guns--chem in 4 @ 40% sci--291 gpt. bank, cathedral, aqueduct, granery, pike complete. We have the most land--and our one salt is right next to Minneapolis. Nice try on the roading desert, but we guessed wrong. Ah well--at least Abe already has his own, so we will not get into too much of tussle over this resourse. Should have it roaded in three turns. Joanie also has some extra to sell us if we need it.

IT: French are building Shakes.

1220 AD (7)

2 pikes, university, aqueduct, library, 2 cathedrals built. 2 Graneries, a cathedral, and a harbor rushed. Slider drops to 30% science, still 3 turns @390 gpt.

IT: Koreans are building Shakes.

1230 AD (8)

A bank, library, 2 graneries, cathedral, and a harbor complete. Salt is connected. some tundra forest plantings complete--will chop and plant again. Once our workers finish the tiles up north--we can put together planting/chopping parties to get extra production boost. This is not huge for this game, and can be a bit tedious (I do not always do it), but will be something to occupy our workforce. I also have been skimming workers off full food box size twelve cities inbetween infra builds. No rushes--pulling gold to upgrade all pikes in rax cities next turn.

1240 AD (9)

bank, rax complete. Rush a cathedral and granery, and upgrade half the pikes in rax cities.

IT: Korea offers 24gpt for spices. Ok (I could have gotten more, but do not feel like endless bartering in the sandbox).

1250 AD (10)

Learn chemistry, metallurgy in 4 @ 40%--324 gpt. Rax, two banks, cathedral, and granery built. Cathedral rushed in New Kolhapur-fire the taxman and clown next turn after it completes. Same for New ganges. Also, Shift-U the remaining rax city pikes (I kept rushing things before doing this, and PTW will not allow group upgrade of some units vice all available).

Have fun in the sand, Ozy!

The Sandbox
 
Sounds good, Bam-Bam. :)

One point...

Joanie also has some extra to sell us if we need it.

:nono: :nono: :nono:

We can't suggest deals involving AI resources. I'm not altogether sure they will ever offer deals involving their resources, but we are going to find out!

If Minneapolis borders expand and take out our lone saltpeter (which is in the desert I've been trying to road for a millenium, for Dwip's reference -- perhaps if we had built that road the first time I had workers over there, we would have sent a settler along the road and grabbed what would be the future saltpeter site?) we would technically be within our rights to capture Minneapolis. The Americans reached out in their greed, and using the AI cheat that sees all resources, to jump into our land and steal a chunk. That is NOT "their land". I'm just hoping the thing flips to us eventually, considering all the pressure it is under. We'll see. Certainly if America attacks us, we want to capture the various thefts they pulled on the east coast.

But we can't just go and buy saltpeter from Joanie "if needed". :nono: This may be a low pressure sand box, but it is still a variant game with some options off limits. :)


- Sirian
 
Understand. I did notice that we could lose our only source if the borders expanded, and noted that Joan has a bunch. I did not attempt to buy any--but thanks for pointing out that which is verboten. :nono:
 
Good news. I'm playing a second sand box game all on my own (started before this one got going, actually) and I have just encountered a situation with an AI offering both strategic and luxury resources in exchange for one of my lux and some gpt from me. So it IS possible to get AI's to offer their resources, but it may be possible only in an exchange/trade format, where they are offering theirs as payment for something they want from us.

In that regard, we may actually not want to sell our resources, or rather, to stop selling them if an AI comes up with something we want or need, and wait for them to come asking.

In my solo game, I lack rubber despite owning half the world's jungle (even more than we have here!) but I got an offer for rubber within twenty turns of first discovering Rep Parts.

That could be dicey if we lack aluminum, but at least it would be possible!


- Sirian
 
Not much to report. Moved workers, built infrastructure in cities that need it and military units out of those that didn't need infrastructure. A few military units are on "goto" to the South as well.

No city flips, but Abe wiped out the Iroquois in 1270, and France declared war on America in 1295! I hope Joanie doesn't get swallowed like the Iroquois did! :eek:

Researched Metallurgy, then Military Tradition, now Astronomy is due in 2 with a healthy surplus each turn. America has had Industrial looking workers since 1265-1270, so I figure we're at least 4 tech's behind *still*. :(

Gradually moving workers south to help finish clearing jungle and I had been moving some of our military toward what was the last Iroquois city since Abe had about 30 units roaming within the 9 squares there, but hopefully he'll move these units to go play with Joanie.

I didn't check to see if Abe had any money yet to buy our spices with, but if he can ever afford more than 6-8 gold (not per turn) it might help slow him down if we sold them to him. Joanie seemed to like our Spices at 36 GPT. :)

Have fun Skyfish, and a belated congrats on the new addition to your family. :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/SSB-1300AD.zip

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I skimmed a settler and sent him East, way over by New madras. Check my post on the next page for more thoughts and information. :)
 
Top Bottom