NC LXXVI: Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire

dalamb

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire, whom we last played in NC XXXI (and previously in NC XXVII). The Holy Romans start with Hunting and Mysticism.
  • Traits: Charlemagne is IMPerialistic and PROtective. IMP gives faster settler production (+50%:hammers:, though no bonus on :food:) and +100% on Great General generation. PRO is a defensive trait, considered weak by players who prefer offensive warfar. It gives faster walls and castles, plus City Garrison I and Drill I on archery and gunpowder units.
  • The UB: The Rathaus, a courthouse that cuts city maintenance by 75% instead of 50%, making it cheaper to run a large empire.

  • The UU: The Landsknecht, a Pikeman with +100% versus melee units as well as the usual +100% versus mounted units; it's thus a reasonable defensive unit but doesn't give as much benefit on offense as some other civilizations' UUs.
And the start:

Spoiler map details,which you may want to read this time even if you usually want to be surprised :
Creation script, which leads to a lot less land per civilization than a "typical" map, with lots of "valleys" between mountain ranges. The examples I saw seemed rather food-poor. There are lots of choke points where a fort (or throw-away city, if you can afford one) can easily defend your land from invaders. Charlie's PRO trait might help with such defence, and IMP might help get settlers out faster so you can claim what land is available nearby before a neighbour gets it. A more crowded map might mean your empire is relatively small, negating some of the advantage of the Rathaus.
Spoiler edits :
I regenerated until I got a decent-looking starting position where the surroundings weren't awful. I checked that iron (for our UU) was somewhere reasonably nearby, and added a forest to the PH the scout is on (so if anybody wants to go for an early settler you get 6:hammers: from working that hill and the city square).
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 76 Charlemagne Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels)
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel
You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
 

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I am in at Prince one more time before I move up a notch in difficulty...assuming a successful outcome :D

Start:

1. Is Charlemagne the worst leader ever? At Prince level protective doesn't seem worth much, and the UUs aren't exiting. 75 per cent less maintenance is useful. And the starting techs are hunting and mysticism. I have thoroughly trained myself out of going for a quick religion. Maybe I should try to grab SH because he is not creative, but there isn't a lot of wood, and he isn't a wonder builder.

2. SIP doesn't look horrible, but I can take a look with my scout first. Instead of the hut, I consider moving the scout S and SE to the pig hill to take a peek. The rivers flow that way and there are hills and woods in that direction. I can change the starting spot and not lose the pigs, but I will lose the elephant. Checking the hut first is not as important as getting the starting position right, I think.

3. Tech path looks like AH->M->BW. I will see if I discover America with my scout first though.

4. I wonder if I should start a second scout and try to get real lucky with huts. Does Charlemagne get a results boost with huts? Haha. A worker will have plenty to do, however, if I SIP.

5. If I win this game I am definitely going up a level.

and 6. I must consider the hills/plains nearby. The extra production would be handy. I can get a hills/plains in one turn while losing one pig and gaining a second elephant, and more hills and woods. If the scout doesn't find anything on turn 1, maybe that's what I will do.
 
jesus the start looks like total crap

immedietaly thinking about building 2nd settler... and since i will probably not play it on competitive level I will probably do

settling 2E brings (2+3)x1.5 production... so it's 7 hammers ~ 14 turns? for settler.
 
Oh god...what a crappy start :D Plains hill sheep glitch is even worse than plains cow glitch. I would probably move the scout 1S1SE and pray for some real food. Otherwise just SiP and live with our crappy capital.
I hope we'll finally get to use the Rathaus to its full potential. This means getting a monster corp with very little maintenance.
I will once again try it on Immortal and hope that the AI doesn't screw me as in my Isabella game.
 
Cow Glitch?

The start generator thinking plains cow counts as solid food. Plains cow is actually a good tile, especially for EXP or IMP leaders, but only if combined with "real" food tiles like corn or seafood.

Not a great start, but there is enough production here to get up fast settlers and later turn this into a bureau cap
 
On all diff. cept maybe Deity (i pulled it off successfully 1x, but it's hard with his starting techs if the start isn't super duper) you can go for a Landsknecht/Trebs rush.
It is a lot of fun, the AI has no way to stop you :)

Remember you cannot get fishing, and machinery/engineering is bulbable with a GS if you have Aesthetics, Alpha and maybe something else i forget.
When it works, Charly can be one of the best :D
 
What? Charly's awful. Bad UU, bad traits, so-so UB. Awful starting techs (though not as bad with the map script above).

Like any leader, he has some redeeming traits, but they're few and far in his case. Tokugawa is better than him.
 
Oh man. Last time we had a great leader with a great start. Now we have a not so great leader and that start looks worse than a bad day at the bathroom. Hill sheep.... ivory... rawr.

Will move scout and look for food. Build a settler as I'd rather not try to improve this crap and spend 643634 turns at pop 2. Probably ragequit if there's no nearby food. :lol:
 
I've been away from the game for over a year. I'm trying to (re)improve my game. I will appreciate any help I can get. Per the initial posts suggestion, I will try to be as detailed as possible.

This game is Noble/Epic

Initial Thoughts.

Spoiler :
-SIP: I'm not going to sweat this decision at this point in my development. I'll be taking note of other player's choices.

-Build Worker ->Worker/Warrior ->Worker/Settler->Absolute latest point for settler

-Tech: Agr->AH -> Mining->BW-> Wheel->Pottery->Writing
-My thinking behind this is get to AH to pasture the sheep; make sure BW is in before I settle my 2nd city; wheel so I can hook up bronze; Writing through pottery

Looking at that list again, cutting Agriculture and Pottery out might make more sense.

I'll appreciate any help I can get

Here goes...something?


1st Round - 2425 BC

Spoiler :
-SIP
-Decided to move my scout S then move clockwise (more on this later)
-Begin Worker-30 turns (will cut this down by working Sheep when borders pop)
-Turn 16 - AH is in; Horses in the BFC. I decide to delay BW and begin working on wheel
-Turn 22 - Worker completes, Aachen starts on another worker
-Pasture Sheep then start on connecting horses.

At this point my exploring efforts are being frustrated by the giant wall of mountains North of Aachen; I kept expecting to find a way to around/through them. I never did and decided to turn around. This makes me think I probably should have bypassed 2nd worker for a warrior to help with exploring. My next build will be a chariot to allow Aachen to grow and help with exploration.

Turn 17 - Wheel is in; begin mining->BW
Turn 34 - Mining is in; I meet Zarab coming from SW; this is also the area I've done a poor job of exploring
Turn 40 - 2nd Worker finishes; horses aren't ready yet so I work on a settler for 2 turns before switching to a chariot
Turn 52 - BW is in and Aachen grows; immediate revolt into Slavery; will research writing next. . . bronze is in a terrible location. I may have to be content with horses until Iron
Turn 55 - Whip Chariot for +45 overflow into settler - Will send chariot SW
Turn 63 - Settler finishes after 1 chop;

My land



My capital
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My problem at this point. Where do I send my settler?

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-red has OK potential as a Moai hybrid/chokepoint
-orange is OK compared to other options
-My gut tells me to escort my settler SW with my chariot. I can see clams and grassland. Also, that is the direction Ethiopia is in (I assume), so the land is probably more contested.



I'm open to any/all suggestions. Having a problem loading pics within the text, will figure it out ASAP
 
Looks interesting. Might give this a go on Immortal / Normal.

Initial thoughts:

- The suggestion to scout south makes sense, but I will SIP and send the scout north.

- with all those hammers no need for early BW for production

- start with hunting, protective archers are good fogbusters and we have high potential hammer output, first techs AH --> archery --> mining. Next will depend on what we see.

I skipped agriculture and forfeited the discount on AH because we want the worker to be improving the sheep tiles ASAP.

- juicy early settler production, first builds worker -> warrior -> archers -> settler

- high hammer capital plus elephants - best chance for early war with catapults + elephants
 
Played a short turnset, to 2440 BC.

We are at a decision point. Save attached.


First round play:

Spoiler :

SIP. Build worker --> warrior --> 2x archer --> settler. Archer is a placeholder build.

Lost scout to a bear. Only 2 archers built due to mountain ranges blocking us in.

Teched AH --> Archery --> Mining --> BW. Chose BW due to the number of forests at secondary city sites.

Found Zara to the south. He looks to close to try and sneak a settler past and there are lots of forests blocking my path, although I have one waiting :p


Second round thoughts:

Spoiler :

capital - could see almost everyone else cottaging this capital to make a super bureau capital, however, I think we need the food to work the hills instead - capital could be an excellent site to pump wonders if we get the marble hooked up.

2nd city - best site appears to be fish + sheep + wheat, use this to generate early GS, needs to be up ASAP.

Builds - need another archer or two, also need to grow into my hammer tiles. No dire need of worker turns yet, all tiles in capital improved, worker available to help 2nd city straight away. Think I will make one more archer then a worker at size 4.

Techs - need agriculture to improve wheat, fishing to get workboat, however, my planned site is on the hill 1SE of the sheep so both of these are in 2nd ring. I plan to have the city at size 3 so only need to improve sheep + 1 other.

Think fishing is superior to ag as it opens up the clam site as a 3rd/4th city. The other priority is getting the marble hooked up to the capital. I may even settle directly on it.

Next tech writing then fishing. 2nd city can make archer + library + workboat.

Future aiming for aesthetics + lit + music to get access to marble wonders, can build Glib + parthenon, fail gold on Sistine + SoZ (??). 2nd city will have the hammer output to build Glib.



Comments, questions etc appreciated.


PS:
Spoiler :

This is way outside my normal game style. I prefer heavy food starts, whipping (cant whip on this land!!), not building wonders and warring. Thanks for the challenge! :)
 

Attachments

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Prince, Normal Speed

Spoiler :

Not exactly my favorite leader, but I think I'm in good company. Moved the scout onto the sheep with a desperate prayer for more food, but he comes up empty handed. With a heavy heart I resign myself to settling in place. Perhaps those two remaining dark tiles to the west will please me. It was not to be. Capital gets busy on a worker and first tech of Animal Husbandry seems like a no brainer.

It quickly becomes apparent that the land surrounding the capital is no better than the capital itself. At least some horses turn up in the capital when AH comes in. Mining doesn't seem to be a priority here, nor BW with the scarcity of trees to cut and food to enslave with. So I settle on a tech path of Wheel-Agriculture-Pottery. May as well put that grassland to use. But when that finished, I don't think I actually worked any cottages for some time, so that was probably a whoops. Then I proceeded on to Mining-BW.

Capital makes a warrior than a settler, and then Prague is settled in the only appealing (to me) spot nearby.



Not until 2000BC is my first rival met, Ethiopia. Buddhism is founded extremely late, and no wonders are being built at all. The AI appears to be struggling on this map...

Unfortunately, no copper is sighted when BW comes in. Fishing is researched next, for the benefit of Prague. Vienna is settled to the west, the first of what looks like many awful sites...



It will make little progress until a monument is built. Greener land is sighted to the west, but so is Ethiopia. I'd like that dye/banana/clam spot! I tech writing after fishing almost instinctively, but in retrospect it didn't seem like a great idea. I don't expect many early specialists with this land...

A fourth settler is popped, but to my frustration, the barbarians have claimed the green land to the west. Oh well, I'll make some chariots and fix that.

Meanwhile, Judaism remains unfounded, and still no wonders have been built. So I decide to make a run for the Oracle late. Masonry-Meditation-Priesthood become the new tech goals, and a settler heads north to found Nuremberg to exploit the marble. I don't see Nuremberg growing for a long time, but for a pop 1 city, it has decent hammers, haha.



A fifth settler claims the only remaining site in my "valley".



I consider settling my third city here, actually. I was scared into the (in my opinion) inferior site west when the Ethiopians showed up that way. Stonehenge is finally built in a faraway land, my first evidence the AI is even playing. Priesthood comes in, Prague begins building the Oracle, and I begin researching Iron Working, praying for some iron.



Prague builds the oracle in no time at all. It's quite the city, I've found. Plenty of plains hills and the food to feed them. The only city I like, actually. I take Code of Laws with the free tech. Rational being my economy is suffering and currency is a long way away. A super courthouse or two will work nicely in the meantime! As an added bonus, Prague becomes the Confucian holy city. I like it even more, now. I revolt to that religion next turn.

Ethiopia remains my only met rival, and hasn't the alphabet or a religion. Hopefully mine will make it's way to him. My scouts meeting unfortunate ends in the surrounding valleys to the barbarians, I don't expect that to change till I can build some stronger scouts (come on, iron...). I get the sense the AIs are struggling further. No more wonders have gone, and I don't recall for the life of me if Judaism was founded, but if it was, it was super late.

Just before calling it a night, a few chariots march on the barbarian city of Saxon



They capture it in 750BC, and Charlemagne retires to his chambers to plot a further course of action...

 
On all diff. cept maybe Deity (i pulled it off successfully 1x, but it's hard with his starting techs if the start isn't super duper) you can go for a Landsknecht/Trebs rush.
It is a lot of fun, the AI has no way to stop you :)

Remember you cannot get fishing, and machinery/engineering is bulbable with a GS if you have Aesthetics, Alpha and maybe something else i forget.
When it works, Charly can be one of the best :D

something I was thinking about...
 
@vran: i don't think a medieval war is a good choice. so there is no need for the beeline.
 
depends really on the diff. on Noble you can do it just for the fun of it, probably on Monarch too.

agreed. but i thought you no longer playing those diffs. :D
 
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